Mexican Flag flies over US Flag

Michael Redman said:
I think the tens of millions who have done so provide evidence against this claim. Besides, where did you get the idea that past waves of immigrants were any different? Ever hear of Little Italy, or Chinatown? You call that an intent to assimilate?
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I know my ancestors never even bothered trying to learn Anishinaabemowin.
 
I do think the underground nature of illegals is a bad thing for this country. It would be better if we knew who was coming here, and could keep out those who we didn't want in. However, as long as we deny legal, documented entry to the huge numbers of people who come in to fill all the vacant low wage jobs, we're never going to have control of who does enter, and who does not.
 
tsg said:
Illegal immigration is just the neo-cons' latest red herring to distract the voters, like gay marriage was the last time around, and discussing it with someone like TC is completely pointless since he's already made up his mind and won't let something unimportant, like the facts, get in his way.
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Yes, it's unfortunate that so many people who consider themselves worthy of correcting the logic of others when it comes to this issue don't even realize that their energies and time have been skillfully redirected from the issues that are REALLY bringing down this country! Defending the "sanctity" of marriage, the order which flags are flown over businesses and denying existence of global warming while gloating over the perception that we haven't suffered another 9/11 because of Homeland Security seems to keep them happily unified.


Michael Redman said:
I do think the underground nature of illegals is a bad thing for this country. It would be better if we knew who was coming here, and could keep out those who we didn't want in. However, as long as we deny legal, documented entry to the huge numbers of people who come in to fill all the vacant low wage jobs, we're never going to have control of who does enter, and who does not.
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I will agree that our borders being so porous is a dangerous thing especially considering the likelihood that we're due for future terrorist acts, but the current racist atmosphere can only be detrimental. I'm not sure that many Americans realize (or will admit) that there are jobs that Americans simply WILL NOT do! I wonder if those who complain the loudest about illegal immigrants realize how much the cost of produce or new housing will rise without "illegals?" I wonder if they can appreciate how much gardening or janitorial services will cost when Americans fill those jobs (especially with the proposed rise in the minimum wage combined with the devaluation of the American dollar?).

Of course the neo-cons will complain anyway! As we've recently seen, they've supported the outsourcing of American jobs only to complain when people in other countries filling those jobs adopt American names in order to placate the conservative bigots who spend more time looking for things to complain about while feasting on red herring!
 
Speaking of neo-cons, where have they all gone? I guess they're the ones who "run away" from a good debate, huh? ;)
 
We no longer have the luxury of arguing about whether there are jobs Americans won't do, or whether that's because the wages for those jobs are artificially low due to illegal workers.

The simple fact is, there are not enough Americans to do the jobs we need to get done. If all the illegals stopped working today, we would have millions of empty job with no one to fill them, even at full employment.

And it's only getting worse. Our economic expansion is going to require a labor force that expands faster than natural increase. Much faster. The question is, do we hamstring the economy by closing the borders, open up more legal immigration, or simply do nothing, and let the situation handle itself the way is has been, by an ever increasing tide of illegal immigration.
 
tsg said:
Illegal immigration is just the neo-cons' latest red herring to distract the voters, like gay marriage was the last time around, and discussing it with someone like TC is completely pointless since he's already made up his mind and won't let something unimportant, like the facts, get in his way.
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In case you had not noticed the neo-cons have been in charge and have not done anything about the nations borders.

Read here: http://www.spp.gov/
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
In case you had not noticed the neo-cons have been in charge and have not done anything about the nations borders.

Read here: http://www.spp.gov/
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Thanks for that link. :)

It certainly shows that the neo-cons are more concerned with commerce and keeping the widest profit margins possible. It's lamentable that in spite of the bevy of things currently wrong in this country news anchormen like Lou Dobbs bite into the immigrant issue harder than anything else.

The issue of porous borders HAS become the excuse for racism - more attempted terrorists attacks have been foiled at the Canadian border than at the southern border.
 
Mephisto said:
The issue of porous borders HAS become the excuse for racism - more attempted terrorists attacks have been foiled at the Canadian border than at the southern border.
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Are the Spanish decent legal immigrants that are against illegal immigration racist?
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
Are the Spanish decent legal immigrants that are against illegal immigration racist?
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I would say they suffer more from nationalism than racism. I suppose it's possible, however, as many people of Spanish (or even Mexican descent) are fair-skinned with light eyes. Oftentimes, people confuse "Mexican" with Indians from the area as they are the most poverty affected people in Mexico and the most likely to immigrate illegally.

Here are many actors and actresses of mixed Latino heritage, most of which DON'T fit the Mexican stereotype: http://www.mixedfolks.com/hnaactors.htm
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
In case you had not noticed the neo-cons have been in charge and have not done anything about the nations borders.
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They didn't do much about gay marriage either, except pass the ridiculous Defense of Marriage Act which has little to no effect on gay marriage and will probably be found unconstitutional when it is eventually challenged.

But that isn't the point. Opposition to both gay marriage and illegal immigration are political tactics to garner votes by uniting people in hatred, nothing more. Simply put, they are saying "We hate the same people you do. Vote for us!" That they don't actually do anything about the supposed problem is beside the point.
 
tsg said:
But that isn't the point. Opposition to both gay marriage and illegal immigration are political tactics to garner votes by uniting people in hatred, nothing more. Simply put, they are saying "We hate the same people you do. Vote for us!" That they don't actually do anything about the supposed problem is beside the point.
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Might this also have something to do with the political pre-disposition (read: Republican) of business owners who maximise profits by disregarding labour laws and hiring illegal immigrants in the first place? After all, these workers are working FOR someone...

I don't know the numbers - would anyone care to estimate the effects on the US economy if all the "illegal" immigrants were re-naturalised tomorrow?
 
volatile said:
I don't know the numbers - would anyone care to estimate the effects on the US economy if all the "illegal" immigrants were re-naturalised tomorrow?
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The numbers are hard to come by. From looking around, it appear to me that the number of illegal workers in the US is somewhere between 7 and 10 million. The number of Americans who are unemployed is a little over 7 million.

Economists disagree on what "full employment" is, considering that there will always be people looking for work, no matter what, due to business failures, new workers entering the job market, relocations, etc. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_employment

The unemployment rate in the US is currently about 4.7%. There really aren't enough Americans to fill the jobs.

What would 5 to 7 million empty job do to the US economy? I don't know, precisely. Raise wages. Reduce the tax base. Cause inflation. Slow the economy. Reduce economic opportunity.
 
A little cheap, perhaps, but whenever I see a discussion about illegal immigrants to the USA, I'm reminded of a little poem:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

“The New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus
 
Mephisto said:
Or possibly I find arguing with a Xenophobe as tiresome as arguing with a fundie X-tian! Nothing new to see here.
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I'm really sick of some (rule 10) bigot automatically assuming they know my political position without bothering to ask. You're wrong, and not just about me being a xenophobe.

He's diseased because the FIRST thing he reached for to make his point was a weapon....
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Knives are tools used to cut things. The vet did not brandish or threaten anyone with the knife any more than you threaten other diners when you cut your steak. I bet if we opened your cutlery drawer we'd find a whole friggin' arsenal wouldn't we? Who are you plotting to assassinate?

Sticks & stones - that veteran and I both fought to defend your right to say whatever you like. Spitting on me will get you a big lunger in return and I KNOW I'll win - I've got MRSA. How would you like to join the ranks of diseased veterans?
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Nice...well it seems you're quick to pick up weapons yourself. That's what we call hypocrisy.

Freedom of speech doesn't cover stealing private property, and that's precisely what that veteran did. It doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to guess what would have happened had the ignorant business owner tried to stop the Vet from stealing the flag.
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No, it takes a huge stretch of the imagination, because you are characterizing the vet based on events which did not happen. I don't know what would have happened and neither do you. Saying a man is willing to commit assault with a deadly weapon in furtherance of petty theft is a big ol' honkin' stretch. A really nasty DA might make a case for armed robbery, but I don't think he'd get a conviction.

You know, you could have made your point on this position by just saying Freedom of Speech doesn't cover stealing private property and we could have moved on with a discussion instead of this pissing contest you seem to like so much.

Because it was stealing! I'm sure had the "rescuing" veteran been interviewed, he would have admitted to NOT informing the ignorant business owner that he was in violation. He simply grabbed a weapon and made a big deal of it, thereby bringing other rabid people to his defense.
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Well the veteran pretty plainly made his own case in the video. He said he wasn't going to allow what he was seeing. The property owner wasn't in a hurry to explain his position on the matter...I can understand that, shall we put words in his mouth too?
 
bruto said:
Wouldn't it depend a little on who owns the flag? Tearing down MY flag and carrying it off is not just a local ordinance issue or a protest, it's a property crime.

I am surprised a little by how many people confuse flag etiquette with law.
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I'm really not confusing the two here...really. I know that it's stealing, but the civil rights movement began when people stopped following the rules, and committed crimes in order to build awareness freely accepting the consequences of their action to do so. I know that there's an impossibly wide scope between refusing to sit at the back of the bus and knocking off a Brinks truck, but why is this act so darned despicable, while Monks hurling molotov cocktails in Myanmar is acceptable?
 
Dan Beaird said:
I know that there's an impossibly wide scope between refusing to sit at the back of the bus and knocking off a Brinks truck, but why is this act so darned despicable, while Monks hurling molotov cocktails in Myanmar is acceptable?
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For a start the monks are trying to gainf reedom, wheras this theif and vandal was tryign to restrict someone else right to free sepeech.
The monks are facing politcal opression, this guy thought that he (and/or his nation) was being insulted.
Can you not see the distinction?
They are fighting to execrsie their rights, he hates the fact that other people are allowed to exercise theirs, and so breaks the law to stop them.
 
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