Mexican Flag flies over US Flag

[tsg]

His intentions are not relevant to the reality of the meanings of symbols.

The symbols have no meaning, none, without intention. To say otherwise is to justify being offended where no offense was intended. That's just dumb.

You can argue all you like about what a symbol "really" means, but you have no reason, and no justification, to take offense by someone else's use of it unless that is what he meant by it.

 

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The symbols have no meaning, none, without intention. To say otherwise is to justify being offended where no offense was intended. That's just dumb.

You can argue all you like about what a symbol "really" means, but you have no reason, and no justification, to take offense by someone else's use of it unless that is what he meant by it.

You are pretending that the use and meanings of symbols throughout all of human history is not relevant.

I personally am not offended because I am savvy to symbols; but I will not pretend that the meaning of a symbol is only relevant to the intent of the displayer of said symbol. To do such would be to deny human reality.

 

[bruto]

If burning an American flag in violation of local fire ordinances is considered free speech, shouldn't rescuing one from defamation (or stealing depending on your POV), also in violation of local ordinances, be considered free speech as well?

If both sides of an argument don't have equal rights to protest then it is no longer a free society...which means the guy with the Ka-Bar knife wins unless the flag owner cares to up the ante.

If I were the police chief there I'd put my hands in my pockets, turn around and walk away slowly. Even that would probably get me sued.

Wouldn't it depend a little on who owns the flag? Tearing down MY flag and carrying it off is not just a local ordinance issue or a protest, it's a property crime.

I am surprised a little by how many people confuse flag etiquette with law.

 

[Hafast]

What the heck, I'll put in my two cents' worth. As far as the flag issue, I agree with most here. If the store owner wants to fly them that way, he's well within his rights, even though he's not following the proper protocol (not law). If it's by mistake, then calmly asking if he's aware of it is the way to handle it. If it's on purpose, then boycott the store, maybe even set up a protest outside the store if you feel that strongly. Storming in and tearing it down is not the answer, and is illegal, plain and simple. The store owner has a right to fly the flags the way they want to, nobody has the right to vandalize. You may not like it, but them's the rules. What bothers me most about this is that people seem to think that the way to make their point is by force, and it seems to be encouraged more and more.
As far as the whole illegal immigration issue, it seems to me that the approach to it is way off-kilter. Everyone seems to want to blame the Mexicans (let's face it, they're the only ones we're upset about). Why isn't anyone asking questions about how they're getting these jobs, or who is hiring them? Isn't that where the problem lies? In my mind, if you're so worried about the "illegals" taking jobs and benefits away from Americans, maybe we should be imposing harsher penalties on the businesses that hire them. If you take away the jobs, then maybe the incentive to enter the country illegally goes away, also. If you see the worker on the side of the road with a sombrero, maybe instead of asking the employer if he knows he has "illegals" on his crew, you tell the company that you will let the authorities and the public aware that they are hiring undocumented workers. Of course, I guess it depends on what your real concern is. Is it that illegal aliens are taking jobs and benefits from Americans, or is it just that you don't like those "damn Mexicans". Also, how do you know that the guy in the sombrero was an "illegal"? Maybe he's in the country legally, or (horror of all horrors) a citizen of Latino descent? I get the feeling that a lot of people are using the issue of illegal immigration to openly show thier racism without fear of reprisal. An no, I'm not accusing any posters in this thread of being racist (although a couple of posts have that flavor). No, I don't think people should be able to come into the country illegally and draw benefits. But I don't blame the individuals. I blame the laws and employers in this country that make it possible, as well as encourage the activity.
Odd, I just noticed that my discourse on the flying of the American flag has turned into a rant on illegal immigration. What was this thread about again?

 

[Mephisto]

What the heck, I'll put in my two cents' worth. As far as the flag issue, I agree with most here. If the store owner wants to fly them that way, he's well within his rights, even though he's not following the proper protocol (not law). If it's by mistake, then calmly asking if he's aware of it is the way to handle it. If it's on purpose, then boycott the store, maybe even set up a protest outside the store if you feel that strongly. Storming in and tearing it down is not the answer, and is illegal, plain and simple. The store owner has a right to fly the flags the way they want to, nobody has the right to vandalize. You may not like it, but them's the rules. What bothers me most about this is that people seem to think that the way to make their point is by force, and it seems to be encouraged more and more.
As far as the whole illegal immigration issue, it seems to me that the approach to it is way off-kilter. Everyone seems to want to blame the Mexicans (let's face it, they're the only ones we're upset about). Why isn't anyone asking questions about how they're getting these jobs, or who is hiring them? Isn't that where the problem lies? In my mind, if you're so worried about the "illegals" taking jobs and benefits away from Americans, maybe we should be imposing harsher penalties on the businesses that hire them. If you take away the jobs, then maybe the incentive to enter the country illegally goes away, also. If you see the worker on the side of the road with a sombrero, maybe instead of asking the employer if he knows he has "illegals" on his crew, you tell the company that you will let the authorities and the public aware that they are hiring undocumented workers. Of course, I guess it depends on what your real concern is. Is it that illegal aliens are taking jobs and benefits from Americans, or is it just that you don't like those "damn Mexicans". Also, how do you know that the guy in the sombrero was an "illegal"? Maybe he's in the country legally, or (horror of all horrors) a citizen of Latino descent? I get the feeling that a lot of people are using the issue of illegal immigration to openly show thier racism without fear of reprisal. An no, I'm not accusing any posters in this thread of being racist (although a couple of posts have that flavor). No, I don't think people should be able to come into the country illegally and draw benefits. But I don't blame the individuals. I blame the laws and employers in this country that make it possible, as well as encourage the activity.
Odd, I just noticed that my discourse on the flying of the American flag has turned into a rant on illegal immigration. What was this thread about again?

Thank you, Hafast! Your two cents was worth a million dollars!

BTW, welcome to the forum.

 

[CptColumbo]

You know what they say about ass-u-mptions.

You make an ass out of u and... mption?

 

[Mephisto]

You make an ass out of u and... mption?

Hey, you're the first one to pick up on that. I was hoping no one would notice, especially . . . mption!

 

[linusrichard]

I've heard this sort of question before. What exactly is it about my question that puzzles you? Do you know that answering a question WITH a question is one of the big no-nos in logical discourse?

Tokie

What it was about your question that puzzles me is why you think it or its answer is relevant. I said that already.

Let's be honest though. Your question was a rhetorical question. You weren't looking for an answer, you were trying to make a point. But okay, let's do this:

TC: What do you think would have happened if you had tried this in Mexico CIty?

Me: I have no idea, and I expect you don't either. But let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that the most likely result is that a gang of reconquistadores, visiting Mexico City to pick up replacement Razor Sombreros (their main weapon), sees the flag arrangement, gets upset, drags you bodily out of your shop, defiles you 8 different ways, carries you to the town square, attaches each limb to a sturdy ox, and drives the oxen in four different directions, then sends your limbs and torso to the Alamo... postage due!!! Now, I have answered your question with an answer. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that my answer is correct, I have a question for you: So what? Or, if you don't want to assume my answer is correct, what do you think is the correct answer, and, again, so what?

TC:

 

[linusrichard]

I can tell that someone is not an American by their headgear, sure.

But earlier...

Now, they don't even wear these things in Mexico anymore

You can tell someone is a Mexican by the fact that he's wearing something that Mexicans don't wear?

 

[Tokenconservative]

What it was about your question that puzzles me is why you think it or its answer is relevant. I said that already.

Let's be honest though. Your question was a rhetorical point. You weren't looking for an answer, you were trying to make a point. But okay, let's do this:

TC: What do you think would have happened if you had tried this in Mexico CIty?

Me: I have no idea, and I expect you don't either. But let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that the most likely result is that a gang of reconquistadores, visiting Mexico City to pick up replacement Razor Sombreros (their main weapon), sees the flag arrangement, gets upset, drags you bodily out of your shop, defiles you 8 different ways, carries you to the town square, attaches each limb to a sturdy ox, and drives the oxen in four different directions, then sends your limbs and torso to the Alamo... postage due!!! Now, I have answered your question with an answer. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that my answer is correct, I have a question for you: So what? Or, if you don't want to assume my answer is correct, what do you think is the correct answer, and, again, so what?

TC:

I thought Razor made scooters...they make sombreros, too?

Actually, it's illegal (federal law) in Mehico to fly the flag of any nation ABOVE that of the Mehican flag. You can bet they are especially...sensitive to this where a US flag is involved. I imagine they look the other way when it's a Cuban flag.

The point is that few other countries in the world would allow a private citizen to fly a foreign flag above that of their own. Of course, it's protocol here not to fly a foreign flag over the US flag, but it's not prosecutable as it is in other countries...like Mehico, which is why many school teachers feel free to do this in their classrooms and some schools do it, too.

Tokie

 

[tsg]

You are pretending that the use and meanings of symbols throughout all of human history is not relevant.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that because there is an understanding of what a symbol means in general does not make it mean that in every case.

Would you still insist someone was in distress even after finding out he had hung the flag upside down by mistake?

I personally am not offended because I am savvy to symbols; but I will not pretend that the meaning of a symbol is only relevant to the intent of the displayer of said symbol. To do such would be to deny human reality.

Taking offense when none was intended may be human, but it doesn't make it right.

 

[Tokenconservative]

But earlier...

You can tell someone is a Mexican by the fact that he's wearing something that Mexicans don't wear?

Indeed. After watching them chanting in the streets about destroying the US and waving Mehican flags...this guy was clearly saying "f#@%! you!" to legal residents and citizens he knew would be passing by on the busy street he was working next to. It's probably the only way he could think of to do this, since he couldn't stand there waving a 6' x4 Mehican flag while digging a ditch.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

What the heck, I'll put in my two cents' worth. As far as the flag issue, I agree with most here. If the store owner wants to fly them that way, he's well within his rights, even though he's not following the proper protocol (not law). If it's by mistake, then calmly asking if he's aware of it is the way to handle it. If it's on purpose, then boycott the store, maybe even set up a protest outside the store if you feel that strongly. Storming in and tearing it down is not the answer, and is illegal, plain and simple. The store owner has a right to fly the flags the way they want to, nobody has the right to vandalize. You may not like it, but them's the rules. What bothers me most about this is that people seem to think that the way to make their point is by force, and it seems to be encouraged more and more.
As far as the whole illegal immigration issue, it seems to me that the approach to it is way off-kilter. Everyone seems to want to blame the Mexicans (let's face it, they're the only ones we're upset about). Why isn't anyone asking questions about how they're getting these jobs, or who is hiring them? Isn't that where the problem lies? In my mind, if you're so worried about the "illegals" taking jobs and benefits away from Americans, maybe we should be imposing harsher penalties on the businesses that hire them. If you take away the jobs, then maybe the incentive to enter the country illegally goes away, also. If you see the worker on the side of the road with a sombrero, maybe instead of asking the employer if he knows he has "illegals" on his crew, you tell the company that you will let the authorities and the public aware that they are hiring undocumented workers. Of course, I guess it depends on what your real concern is. Is it that illegal aliens are taking jobs and benefits from Americans, or is it just that you don't like those "damn Mexicans". Also, how do you know that the guy in the sombrero was an "illegal"? Maybe he's in the country legally, or (horror of all horrors) a citizen of Latino descent? I get the feeling that a lot of people are using the issue of illegal immigration to openly show thier racism without fear of reprisal. An no, I'm not accusing any posters in this thread of being racist (although a couple of posts have that flavor). No, I don't think people should be able to come into the country illegally and draw benefits. But I don't blame the individuals. I blame the laws and employers in this country that make it possible, as well as encourage the activity.
Odd, I just noticed that my discourse on the flying of the American flag has turned into a rant on illegal immigration. What was this thread about again?

1. Agreed. That's the way to handle it. A pizza joint here was advertising that they accept pessos; they were out of business in 6 months.

2. I ask these questions all the time, and every time I do, since so many on both sides of the political divide don't want to answer them, they just scream "RAACCCCIIISTTTTTTTTT!!!!" at me and file complaints with the mods.

I'd be happy to discuss the "Mexican" issue...and also the illegal alien issue...because they come from all over the world, it's just that MOST come from Mexico.

Tokie

 

[bruto]

I thought Razor made scooters...they make sombreros, too?

Actually, it's illegal (federal law) in Mehico to fly the flag of any nation ABOVE that of the Mehican flag. You can bet they are especially...sensitive to this where a US flag is involved. I imagine they look the other way when it's a Cuban flag.

The point is that few other countries in the world would allow a private citizen to fly a foreign flag above that of their own. Of course, it's protocol here not to fly a foreign flag over the US flag, but it's not prosecutable as it is in other countries...like Mehico, which is why many school teachers feel free to do this in their classrooms and some schools do it, too.

Tokie

Yes, it's one of the wonderful things about this country of ours, that so far at least our wise legislators have not confused symbol with substance, that they have not taken that little step toward fascism of investing the symbol of government authority with uniquely sacred status, and have not encumbered us with a law whose only real purpose and effect would be to protect the hurt feelings of patriots.

The cognitive dissonance of flag protection continues to amaze me, in that it is usually taken up by conservatives who claim to dislike government and want less of it, and who put private property above almost anything else, but would then have government add another layer of prosecution and bureaucracy for no purpose other than to protect its own symbols from disrespect, making the symbolic sacredness of the design transcend the ownership of the object; and by religious conservatives, who would make the secular flag the only thing sacred in law. And now, Tokie brings up Mexican policy (although of course, because he's Tokie through and through, he can't resist adding the quirky spelling to emphasize his pervasive bigotry). Oh yeah, we need to be more like Mexico!

Trust Tokie, too, not only to realize that a man's hat is an affront aimed right at him, and to be able to deduce that the worker is illegal, but to have the courage to call his employer! What a guy.

 

[linusrichard]

I thought Razor made scooters...they make sombreros, too?

Actually, it's illegal (federal law) in Mexico to fly the flag of any nation ABOVE that of the Mexican flag. You can bet they are especially...sensitive to this where a US flag is involved. I imagine they look the other way when it's a Cuban flag.

The point is that few other countries in the world would allow a private citizen to fly a foreign flag above that of their own. Of course, it's protocol here not to fly a foreign flag over the US flag, but it's not prosecutable as it is in other countries...like Mexico, which is why many school teachers feel free to do this in their classrooms and some schools do it, too.

Tokie

Fixed your spelling.

Okay, so what does that have to do with what we're talking about? The flag in question was in the US, right? Why bring up what the Mexican law is regarding flag display? The flag owner in question wasn't violating US law, and wasn't subject to Mexican law.

 

[Mephisto]

But earlier...

You can tell someone is a Mexican by the fact that he's wearing something that Mexicans don't wear?

He doesn't make much sense, does he? Here he attempts to point out a rhetorical error by making the very same error himself!

What exactly is it about my question that puzzles you? Do you know that answering a question WITH a question is one of the big no-nos in logical discourse?

It's also laughable to be correcting others when his own posts are full of misspellings. Ah, the conundrum of the neo-con - spreading Democracy at the point of a gun, defending the right to privacy and justice with wiretapping and torture, and claiming to be pro-life while at the same time being pro-war and pro-death penalty.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Well, complaining about workers that are not paying their fair share of taxes IMO does not make one a bigot.

Er he identified himself as a bigot and the content of his post corroborated his own description. QED

Based on his own actions if he ever tries to work in the UK and choses to wear a stetson he will undoubtedly be happy when he is reported as an illegal immigrant of the worst kind - namely a bigoted illegal immigrant and that stetsons will not be seen at that location again.

 

[Michael Redman]

Well, complaining about workers that are not paying their fair share of taxes IMO does not make one a bigot.

I've heard this before, but I don't get it. How do illegal workers convince their employers not to withhold payroll taxes? (And don't tell me they all get paid under the table, in cash. That might work for the maid, it isn't going to cut it in a meat packing plant.)

How do they file for refunds of withheld taxes they don't actually owe?

How do they get out of paying sales tax?

How do they, or their landlords, get out of paying property taxes?

Unlike past waves of immigrants to this country, these invaders have no intention of assimilating, adopting American values and lifestyles.

I think the tens of millions who have done so provide evidence against this claim. Besides, where did you get the idea that past waves of immigrants were any different? Ever hear of Little Italy, or Chinatown? You call that an intent to assimilate?

 

[Mephisto]

I've heard this before, but I don't get it. How do illegal workers convince their employers not to withhold payroll taxes? (And don't tell me they all get paid under the table, in cash. That might work for the maid, it isn't going to cut it in a meat packing plant.)

You're absolutely right, they DON'T get out of paying taxes as many would have you believe. As a matter of fact many are putting money into the system that they'll never get back because of their status.

Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions

Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

How do they get out of paying sales tax?

As a matter of fact, many immigrants ARE paying taxes out of a sense of duty.

Illegal immigrants paying taxes as example of good citizenship

VISTA – The clusters of working families that spilled out from Marisela Ornelas' small office waited as patiently as any American filing income taxes at the last minute.

Yet most did not belong to this country.

"They're all illegal," Ornelas said.

Lured by word-of-mouth and by Spanish-language ads in newspapers and on the radio, hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants across the nation have walked into tax preparers' offices to report their income.

The immigrants have been able to file since 1996 when the IRS started issuing special tax numbers for people living and working illegally in this country. Experts say the 8 million to 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States contribute untold billions each year in payroll taxes.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040415/news_1n15taxes.html

How do they, or their landlords, get out of paying property taxes?

Although I'm not sure how many are land owners, it seems to me it would be impossible to obtain a loan for property WITHOUT paying the taxes.

I think the tens of millions who have done so provide evidence against this claim. Besides, where did you get the idea that past waves of immigrants were any different? Ever hear of Little Italy, or Chinatown? You call that an intent to assimilate?

The lack of will to assimilate into American society is always pointed at as a major problem, but only with regards to Mexicans. As you pointed out there are pockets of various immigrant cultures that exist happily amongst Americans in most major cities.

As a side note, here is some worthy information regarding the illegal immigrant contribution to Social Security.

Illegal immigrants and Social Security

If Americans ever succeeded in getting rid of illegal immigrants – deporting those who are already here and preventing the entry of others – there would be an outcry from Latino activists, civil libertarians and the business community.

But that's nothing. Do you know who might really be furious? The Social Security Administration. If not for the billions in payroll taxes that illegal immigrants are paying into the system, the funding crisis facing Social Security would be much more serious and much more imminent.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050410/news_mz1e10ruben.html

So, as you suggest, the problem of illegal immigration is a complex one that is more fueled by xenophobia and racism than anything. If the government was actually serious about stopping illegal immigration (you'll have to admit that it provides an expedient red herring to cover up REAL problems like the war, the economy, etc.) they would start handing out SERIOUS prison time to companies hiring illegal immigrants!

 

[tsg]

So, as you suggest, the problem of illegal immigration is a complex one that is more fueled by xenophobia and racism than anything. If the government was actually serious about stopping illegal immigration (you'll have to admit that it provides an expedient red herring to cover up REAL problems like the war, the economy, etc.) they would start handing out SERIOUS prison time to companies hiring illegal immigrants!

Illegal immigration is just the neo-cons' latest red herring to distract the voters, like gay marriage was the last time around, and discussing it with someone like TC is completely pointless since he's already made up his mind and won't let something unimportant, like the facts, get in his way.