Mexican Airforce films UFOs

Originally posted by wipeout
I was referring to my original speculation that any strange radar readings could be explained if the radar was simply going wrong in some way.

That was before I knew there were no radar readings for main group of objects.

What is new to me is that this is wrong -- there were radar readings after all in the direction of the oil-platforms, just very ambiguous ones, so Captain Franz's translation shows there were more early radar objects than just the first object:
My diagrams above is based on Patricio's transcript, and it resembles Franz's transcript pretty well (notice the timestamps on the first object). The aircrew - at least - believed that this object was the same all along, but they we're at the same time in doubt about the radars capability.

That is what is illustrated in my diagram.

I think a few things is worth noticing here:

a) They don't seem to trust the radar very much.

b) There is confusion concerning who-is-who (radar operator / camera operator / pilot / ground control) in all the transcripts I have seen. I guess it's hard to make out the voices 100%?

c) Who has access to what? They seem to have access to eachothers screens. Or do the pilot use his own radar?

Under all circumstances, we're but left with speculations, and this is why I don't really find the radar signals stated in the transcripts usefull for measures.
I'm not gonna contact Telephonics, because I'm quite frankly bored with this case by now. I'm on standby untill thorough experiments has been conducted - enough speculations and calculations already.


I assumed Alex meant UFO skeptics and scientists who got involved after seeing the oil-flare theory being attacked by Maussan on TV in the last couple of weeks and might be able to help counter the attack through their TV and other media contacts.

...

I guess you're right. Hazy statements can often lead to hazy interpretations :)
 
Thomas said:
I'm not gonna contact Telephonics, because I'm quite frankly bored with this case by now. I'm on standby untill thorough experiments has been conducted - enough speculations and calculations already.

I guess you're right. Hazy statements can often lead to hazy interpretations :)

Hello Thomas,

I think it was a mistake to give insights of what is going on about this case and what
I told looks like a secret and it is. You know what you are doing. I also know what I am doing.

Please forgive me in my last post regarding the scientists.

You are not a scientist, you are an engineer or skeptic artist, so I think you are
on a different thought basis.

My interest is to keep you informed of what is going on. I hope you understand why
I decided to keep some information incomplete. My honor and reputation have been
put under doubt world wide and I have to keep certain information under my control.

This is not only a forum debate, it is my future reputation as an honest investigator.
I will fight against a huge monopoly that protects Maussan. I am lonely defending
myself against a mega-monster media power.

Maybe you don't know or can't imagine what I am facing now.

Anyway I appreciate your input.

Regards,

A
 
Capt.Franz said:
You are not a scientist, you are an engineer or skeptic artist, so I think you are on a different thought basis.
You'll soon find that I'm certainly not an engineer or a skeptic artist (whatever that is). It's more than ten years ago I made my first grand theory and was dispensed for a Danish university - only to study philosophy of science due to my theories. Before that I studied philosophy at three diffrent schools.

You see, I don't believe status quo science, in fact, I never have. If a scientist is someone who blindly believes the active theories as presented (and it indeed is in most cases), then you're right: I'm not a scientist, and nor would I like to be called as such.

In the second grade of elementary school my teachers used to call me "The philosopher". Maybe that's the most accurate desciption if one should choose, but I prefer: Thomas. These days I'm working on a doctor thesis concerning evolutionary algorithms.


My interest is to keep you informed of what is going on. I hope you understand why
I decided to keep some information incomplete. My honor and reputation have been
put under doubt world wide and I have to keep certain information under my control.

For natural reasons, I wouldn't know why you hold back information before I know what that information actually is. I think I should add to this; that I personally only hold back information if I know it's incomplete.
As for your honor and reputation, I think you brought this on yourself when you published a theory as conclusive before it had been tested. You should've known what you were up against; believers don't hesitate to discredit their opposition if they have the slightest opportunity.


This is not only a forum debate, it is my future reputation as an honest investigator.
I will fight against a huge monopoly that protects Maussan. I am lonely defending
myself against a mega-monster media power.

Maybe you don't know or can't imagine what I am facing now.
My approach would have been diffrent, but then again, I don't know much about your actual situation - I can only guess.

I know that Maussan is a very popular man in Mexico, and that many of his findings are rather hazy.
It looks to me like a major goal of yours, is to get to Maussan as you consider him a promoter of pseudoscience. However, even if you succed with this, you will still have failed, because the problem is not really with Maussan, but with the Mexican culture. Miracles and paranormal events is an integrated part of your culture through your extremely strong devotion to Catholicism.
The many religious people of Mexico needs additional "miracles" to justify this devotion. It basically goes like this:

"If this-and-that paranormal phenomenon is true, then why shouldn't the miracles of God be true as well?".

There you have it. That's why Mexico is a record holder concerning paranormal sightings and ideas. You will see the same phenomenon in other strongly religious cultures, because when modern science discredit religious ideas, religion has to discredit science - or expose it as more incomplete than it actually is.
Discredit and ruin Maussan and you have achieved nothing but created room for a new Maussan. The root of paranormal ideas is - in most cases - religion, cut off a branch; and a new will grow elsewhere.

Religion and uncertainty is your "mega-monster", the media just feed the hungry crowd.


Let's return to the topic of this thread:

I wish you best of luck with the recontruction flight, and are looking very much forward to see the results.
 
I wish you best of luck with the recontruction flight, and are looking very much forward to see the results.

Did we had some news about this reconstruction flight? Is there a webpage about it? Or a paper publication?
 
LOL!

I'm a newcomer here and haven't dabbled in the paranormal in some time, but I can't believe people are still debating the UFO issue. I thought, like "crop circles" it was dead.

One need only look at the history of this phenomenon (as I have) to figure out its all wishful thinking, hoaxing, or cons.

Here is the question anyone who "wants to believe" should ask themselves: From about 1947, up until about the early 1990s, you could count on literally THOUSANDS of UFO reports, often including fuzzy, shaky photos and sometimes (later) bad video of "sightings." It died rather quickly, though a few hangers-on and typical charlatans tried to milk it (remember the spate of "seers" who were able to video "the visitors" making the stars move or as they shot about the sky in their craft, but were invisible to everyone else?).

For some reason, these thing just went away beginning in oh, about 1995-95

Why?

I know...anybody else care to take a guess?

Tokie
 
Well, I have another question, and I hope it'll be answered (because this thread is so long and so complex, I coudn't find the answer):

In an interview, Germán Marín said that the objects were flying at 300 knots:

http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?chid=3&schid=321&secid=0&cid=380711

El radar indicó que los objetos realizaron drásticos cambios de rumbo, las velocidades podían estar, "no sé de 60 nudos e incrementándose a 120, 220 o 300 nudos, cosa que jamás había visto", señaló el teniente Germán Marín, operador de radar infrarrojo.

This is from a website in spanish...

Now, this quote is widely use in french ufology in order to argue that the oil falre explanation is false. Who do you explain away this quote?

Because obviously 300 knots means something like 550 km/h. Even for a truck on a highway, it's really fast...

Thanks,
 
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Did we had some news about this reconstruction flight? Is there a webpage about it? Or a paper publication?

Yes, there are two videos of that flight that I know of at this address.

The first one is about 4/5 down the page, under the heading "ULTIMA HORA" in big yellow capitals.

The second video is a segment of a National Geographic TV program featuring Captain Franz and his reconstruction flight. It's almost at the bottom of the page, and the link to the video is: VEA EL VIDEO DE LA PARTICIPACION DEL CAP ALEJANDRO FRANZ (in Spanish).
 
In an interview, Germán Marín said that the objects were flying at 300 knots:

Now, this quote is widely use in french ufology in order to argue that the oil falre explanation is false. Who do you explain away this quote?
It's been a while, but their perception of the lights doing 300 knots is that they were keeping up with the planes, right? In the video, you can see clouds passing by quickly, but the lights stay right there in one position. The pilots were disoriented and thought the lights were close by, therefore their brains interpreted the scene as the lights keeping up with them. When in actuality, the lights were very far away and were in the same visual position because of that.

Did you ever notice that the Moon follows you when you drive? Same effect.
 
Je pense que c'est plausible, mais dans le journal il est écrit:

El radar indicó que los objetos realizaron drásticos cambios de rumbo, las velocidades podían estar, "no sé de 60 nudos e incrementándose a 120, 220 o 300 nudos, cosa que jamás había visto", señaló el teniente Germán Marín, operador de radar infrarrojo.

So those speeds are attributed to the radar, not to a visual estimation by the guy (who is responsible of the radar).

Is this newspaper wrong (and the radar didn't detect that kind of speeds?), or is it right?

I'm sorry, I know that it's been a long time (same for me). But since this quote is widely use in French to say that the oil flares hypothesis is wrong, I really would no what to answer to that argument (and since their is on this forum some Campeche experts...).
 
It's easy to answer.

The aircrew themselves said that there were no radar contacts from the infrared sources that make up the main "UFO sighting" part of the flight.

This was from a transcript from what appeared to be some kind of press conference with the aircrew that was posted at the Rense.com website, it's buried back somewhere in this thread. Maybe the link still works.

It was the news media that took those infrared sources and the few scattered earlier and later radar contacts and put them together. The aircrew clearly stated it was never the case that they had an infrared source with a radar reflection during their "UFO sighting" of those infrared sources that the footage usually shows.

There was a much earlier infrared source with a radar reflection, though. We learned that from the in-flight communications. It flew towards the city airport, turned and disappeared at it. This was very obviously a plane.

But the UFO believers are wrong to say there were any radar reflections during the part they mean. The aircrew said there was nothing.
 
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I've seen these Videos. It looks convincing until science spoils things for the woo crowd. These seemingly UFO craft are thought by the scientific community to be plasma energy caused by tectonic activity. These things are usually seen after such events as Volcanic eruptions or earthquakes. These "UFO'S" are often seen comming out of and going into volcanos. Odd behaviour for extra terrestrials who never communicate with us in any other way.
 
I've seen these Videos. It looks convincing until science spoils things for the woo crowd. These seemingly UFO craft are thought by the scientific community to be plasma energy caused by tectonic activity. These things are usually seen after such events as Volcanic eruptions or earthquakes. These "UFO'S" are often seen comming out of and going into volcanos. Odd behaviour for extra terrestrials who never communicate with us in any other way.

Plasma energy giving infrared sources that just so happen to be same direction on the horizon as three very distant 1 kilometer wide oil platforms with ten 100 meters tall flames? I'd like it to be something as interesting as plasma, ball-lightning or something similar, but to me the probable explanation of this sighting seems less so.
 
The aircrew clearly stated it was never the case that they had an infrared source with a radar reflection during their "UFO sighting" of those infrared sources that the footage usually shows.

Thanks for the answer!

Do you have a link who point to an interview of the crew stating that? I mean if I want to debunk what the French ufologists are saying, I need something I can quote...
 
Thanks for the answer!

Do you have a link who point to an interview of the crew stating that? I mean if I want to debunk what the French ufologists are saying, I need something I can quote...



From the conversation of crew members it's clear that they never got anything on radar. I made a rough transcript HERE. I think on Capt. Franz web page there's a more precise transcript with time stamps and all.

EDIT:
You may also find what you are looking for on Astrophotographer's Webpage.

EDIT 2:
On post #500 is exactly the reference of the radar operator, that he doesn't get anything on radar.
 
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