Mentally ill troops forced into combat

[Beerina]

Well, this is a revoltin' development. CNN Reports that people with diagnosed mental illness, some of them on anti-depressants, are being forced to fight in Iraq.
There have been twenty-two suicides, one fifth of all non-combat deaths.

How does that stack up historically in other wars? Some adjustment would have to be made for the (presumably) smaller percentage of non-combat deaths in more modern wars.

As a skeptic, that's one of the first things that pops up in my mind. Is this an unusually large number for such an operation?

Now it might be, but that was not part of the story

 

[Beerina]

Just because someone volunteers for duty doesn't mean that they should be sent into combat....

This is the second most incredible quote I've ever heard. The most incredible was a quote by a Canadian government unionized employee during a recession some years ago. The government (this is the government of the Great Socialist People's Republic of Canadia, keep in mind) was planning on restricting some unionized employee benefits or pay or something, and the unionized government employee stated, "Why should we have to take a pay cut? It's not our fault the economy is bad!"

 

[ImaginalDisc]

This is the second most incredible quote I've ever heard. The most incredible was a quote by a Canadian government unionized employee during a recession some years ago. The government (this is the Government of the Great Socialist People's Republic of Canadia, keep in mind) was planning on restricting some unionized employee benefits or pay or something, and the unionized government employee stated, "Why should we have to take a pay cut? It's not our fault the economy is bad!"

Why is this quote at all strange? I work for the local school board, but I do not teach. I am clerical support. Likewise, not ever member of Fed Ex delivers or picks up packages. Not every person at IBM builds computers. Not everyone in the military has a combat duty. Every organization requires support services.

 

[Random]

Wow. Both of you have completely misinterpreted my comment. The point I was trying to make is that certain people might want to sign up for combat duty, but should not be sent despite their desire.

A paranoid schizophrenic wants to go to Iraq to kill Arabs and tells the recruiter that he can see the invisible Arabs that other people can’t and wants to shoot five thousand of them because then he can level up and learn how to fly using only his mind. Should the recruiter send him?

 

[Tricky]

Wow. Both of you have completely misinterpreted my comment. The point I was trying to make is that certain people might want to sign up for combat duty, but should not be sent despite their desire.

A paranoid schizophrenic wants to go to Iraq to kill Arabs and tells the recruiter that he can see the invisible Arabs that other people can’t and wants to shoot five thousand of them because then he can level up and learn how to fly using only his mind. Should the recruiter send him?

Hmmm sounds vaguely familiar.

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill, KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me, sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

 

[casebro]

That is some seriously lame trolling.

And yes, I think you should be allowed to serve.

They wouldn't take me- I was three pounds overweight. They kicked me out of line before I got to see the pornographic ink blots. What a wasted bus trip.

But seriously , at what point would you have the line drawn between 'protection', and 'discrimination' ? Amoungst the homeless, the state can't 'protect' them, why should the Army be allowed to? HMmmm, maybe the draft would clear the homeless off the streets?

 

[bigred]

Why is this quote at all strange? I work for the local school board, but I do not teach. I am clerical support. Likewise, not ever member of Fed Ex delivers or picks up packages. Not every person at IBM builds computers. Not everyone in the military has a combat duty. Every organization requires support services.

Again those of you not familiar w/it don't grasp how different the military is. Pardon the old cliche, but it's true: it's NOT just a job; it's a way of life. A jobs for civilians is a job. When you're in the military, it's just that: you are IN the military. You don't just happen to have a military job and wear a pretty uniform.

Being in the military means by definition that you are eligible for combat, regardless of your job. Of course there are exceptions, but generally you don't say "well I work in a certain job type so I'm not 'eligible for combat' ..."

 

[bigred]

Why is this quote at all strange? I work for the local school board, but I do not teach. I am clerical support. Likewise, not ever member of Fed Ex delivers or picks up packages. Not every person at IBM builds computers. Not everyone in the military has a combat duty. Every organization requires support services.

Again those of you not familiar w/it don't grasp how different the military is. Pardon the old cliche, but it's true: it's NOT just a job; it's a way of life. A jobs for civilians is a job. When you're in the military, it's just that: you are IN the military. You don't just happen to have a military job and wear a pretty uniform.

Being in the military means by definition that you are eligible for combat, regardless of your job. Of course there are exceptions, but generally you don't say "well I work in a certain job type so I'm not 'eligible for combat' ..."

 

[bigred]

Why is this quote at all strange? I work for the local school board, but I do not teach. I am clerical support. Likewise, not ever member of Fed Ex delivers or picks up packages. Not every person at IBM builds computers. Not everyone in the military has a combat duty. Every organization requires support services.

Again those of you not familiar w/it don't grasp how different the military is. Pardon the old cliche, but it's true: it's NOT just a job; it's a way of life. A jobs for civilians is a job. When you're in the military, it's just that: you are IN the military. You don't just happen to have a military job and wear a pretty uniform.

Being in the military means by definition that you are eligible for combat, regardless of your job. Of course there are exceptions, but generally you don't say "well I work in a certain job type so I'm not 'eligible for combat' ..."

 

[Khonshu]

bigred, I think you made your point, made your point, made your point...

How has this issue of combat stress been dealt with historically? By slapping soldiers (Patton), LMF'ing them (RAF during WWII - Lack of Moral Fiber - you were basically shunned), shooting them for cowardice (pick your pre-21st century war), decimation (Roman Empire), etc., etc. Providing medication & treatment is something very, very new.

Just on another note, I was speaking with a recent Iraq returnee last night. He was recovering from knee surgery after trashing his knee falling down a flight of stairs during a sniper extraction in Iraq. The treatment he received - they'd drain the knee daily, shoot him full of steroids, and give him a baggy of pills & send him back to his unit. It was combat - if he was semi-functional, he was needed. When he got back to the states, he had an ortho look at his knee - he now has a cadavar tendon in it, and a whole lot of new surgery scars. Is this much different than medicating up someone for mental illness?

 

[drkitten]

Being in the military means by definition that you are eligible for combat, regardless of your job.

Unless, of course, you happen to be in the US Armed Forces and female, since "combat jobs" are restricted to males only.

More to the point, the US Army -- in fact, every service -- also recognizes 1-A-0 conscientious objectors, members of the military who are specifically not eligible for combat for reasons of conscience.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Pardon the old cliche, but it's true: it's NOT just a job; it's a way of life.

I have a better description. You didn't sign up for a job, you signed on as a slave.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Unless, of course, you happen to be in the US Armed Forces and female, since "combat jobs" are restricted to males only.

That's just a policy issue. If the military decided to send women into combat, then the women would have to go.

More to the point, the US Army -- in fact, every service -- also recognizes 1-A-0 conscientious objectors, members of the military who are specifically not eligible for combat for reasons of conscience.

Only in very rare occasions. Such people have a very hard time convincing authorities that they really do object for reasons other than cowardice or laziness.

 

[drkitten]

Only in very rare occasions. Such people have a very hard time convincing authorities that they really do object for reasons other than cowardice or laziness.

Only at this point in history. I believe that during Vietnam, for example, there were actually more 1-A-O objectors than there were 1-O objectors. The main difference is the draft. In an army made up almost entirely of volunteers, it's difficult to see why someone would be willing to volunteer to join the army, but not to fight. (And usually, the Army will simply refuse the person's enlistment. Either join up without conditions, or don't join up at all.) Similarly, a soldier who makes a legitimate claim for 1-A-O status today will usually be offered an honorable discharge instead. It keeps the books tidier and is easier all around.

During 'Nam, things were a little different, since much of the army were draftees. It was often easier to convince someone to accept a 1-A-O designation than it was to turn down a claim for CO status altogether and then to have to face the inevitable round of appeals and writs of habeas corpus.

(Glossary: 1-O status were people who were conscientiously objecting to participation in the war, or the armed forces, at all. 1-A-O were people who were merely objecting to combat duty. So a 1-A-O might be trained as a combat medic, or as some sort of supply officer or something.)

 

[thaiboxerken]

The granting of objector designation is something that the military may give to people, if they feel like it. The military has the option of not granting ANY objector designations. They could send someone into combat regardless of how they feel about it. They could also send you to the brig for farting. Enlistees are property, not people, in the military.

 

[Rob Lister]

Thai box, you pay your dime and you take your chances. Odds are you wouldn't be suited for military life. Don't join. Others will, have, and do fight for you. Sleep well.

 

[peptoabysmal]

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility -- I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it. And the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world, ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.
John F. Kennnedy

They don't make 'em like they used to.

If you sign up, you don't get to just defend the free, you also have to defend the self-centered and self-absorbed.

 

[a_unique_person]

Thai box, you pay your dime and you take your chances. Odds are you wouldn't be suited for military life. Don't join. Others will, have, and do fight for you. Sleep well.

That's a pretty damn offensive post, are you sure you wouldn't like to reconsider it?

 

[ImaginalDisc]

That's a pretty damn offensive post, are you sure you wouldn't like to reconsider it?

Probably not. It's a standard ad homimem. It's a common tactic when a civilian makes a criticism of the military. It's unfortunate, because it debases both parties.

 

[bigred]

bigred, I think you made your point, made your point, made your point...?

lol -stinkin connection - anyway -

The treatment he received - they'd drain the knee daily, shoot him full of steroids, and give him a baggy of pills & send him back to his unit. It was combat - if he was semi-functional, he was needed. When he got back to the states, he had an ortho look at his knee - he now has a cadavar tendon in it, and a whole lot of new surgery scars. Is this much different than medicating up someone for mental illness?

Of course. Mental sicknesses or conditions are quite different from physical ones.