Mentally ill troops forced into combat

[Tricky]

Well, this is a revoltin' development. CNN Reports that people with diagnosed mental illness, some of them on anti-depressants, are being forced to fight in Iraq.

The Hartford Courant, citing records obtained under the federal Freedom of Information Act and more than 100 interviews of families and military personnel, reported numerous cases in which the military failed to follow its own regulations in screening, treating and evacuating mentally unfit troops from Iraq.

There have been twenty-two suicides, one fifth of all non-combat deaths.

Of course, there is a very good reason.

"The challenge for us ... is that the Army has a mission to fight. And, as you know, recruiting has been a challenge," she said. "And so we have to weigh the needs of the Army, the needs of the mission, with the soldiers' personal needs."

Yeah, like the personal need of being treated for mental illness.

And then, there is the need to keep Klingers from beating the system.

Maj. Andrew Efaw, a judge advocate general officer in the Army Reserves who handled trial defenses for soldiers in northern Iraq last year, said commanders don't want to send mentally ill soldiers into combat.
"But on the other hand, [the commander] doesn't want to send a message to his troops that if you act up, he's willing to send you home," Efaw said.

Why do scenes from Full Metal Jacket keep playing through my head?

 

[Random]

Do they still make students read Catch-22 in High School?

 

[Huntster]

What a bunch of ********. Trust "Tricky" to come up with such BS.

This is an all volunteer military. The draft days are long gone.

Frankly, if Tricky was in theater, I'd consider his allegations to be true.

He's clearly ill mentally.

 

[Random]

This is an all volunteer military. The draft days are long gone.

Just because someone volunteers for duty doesn't mean that they should be sent into combat.

"The ghost of my dead father visited me at Burger King and told me to join the Army so I could kill people legally. When do I get my gun? I've got a list to work on."

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster :
This is an all volunteer military. The draft days are long gone.

Just because someone volunteers for duty doesn't mean that they should be sent into combat....

What is it about military duty that people don't understand?

Is it the obedience? Is it the danger? Is it killing?

Has military duty been rendered to a civil training program to teach people how to work?

What the hell is going on? Can we not even trust our military to be a military?

Thankfully, those in service today are behaving like soldiers. And thankfully, the Pentagon knows that it doesn't want to go back to the draft days.

....The ghost of my dead father visited me at Burger King and told me to join the Army so I could kill people legally. When do I get my gun? I've got a list to work on.

You "get your gun" when you're ready.

Clearly, you'll never make it.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Thankfully, those in service today are behaving like soldiers.

Except that guy who chucked a grenade into a tent to kill some fellow soldiers.

This thread seems to be conflating several different issues. "Screening, treating, and evacuating mentally unfit troops from Iraq." Enlistment is voluntary, but what happens to soldiers who develop mental problems once in? The suggestion is that to avoid "Klingers", the military is not taking mental illness among the troops seriously. That may or may not be true, but it's not the same as suggesting recruitment isn't voluntary.

 

[President Bush]

Why do scenes from Full Metal Jacket keep playing through my head?

Gunnery Sergeant Tom Cruise: You are nothing but unorganized grabastic pieces of amphibian ◊◊◊◊. Because I am hard you will not like me. But the more you hate me the more you will learn. You will forego your medications. You are not mentally ill.

Private Bush: Sir, yes, sir.

Gunnery Sergeant Tom Cruise: Private Bush, are you crapping Tiffany cufflinks? I'm gonna give you three seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face. What's so funny, Private Bush?

Private Bush: Well, if you ask me, uh, sir, we're shooting the wrong towelheads.

Gunnery Sergeant Tom Cruise: Why do I get the feeling you have substantially less than a full jelly doughnut in your foot locker, Private Bush? You, too, will forego your medications. For you, Private Bush, I recommend surgery. I'm gonna unscrew your head and ◊◊◊◊ down your neck!

 

[a_unique_person]

What a bunch of ********. Trust "Tricky" to come up with such BS.

This is an all volunteer military. The draft days are long gone.

Frankly, if Tricky was in theater, I'd consider his allegations to be true.

He's clearly ill mentally.

That post is a complete waste of space.

 

[Rob Lister]

Military combat is a stressful activity.

It can make the most sane soldier quite irrational at certain times.

The suicide rate does not surprise me; just shy twice that of the general population. (One would expect 12 per 100,000 for this age group - cdc)

Still, it's an occupational hazard.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Military combat is a stressful activity.

It can make the most sane soldier quite irrational at certain times.

The suicide rate does not surprise me; just shy twice that of the general population. (One would expect 12 per 100,000 for this age group - cdc)

Still, it's an occupational hazard.

...which is worth trying to prevent, even if it costs time and money, is how you were going to end that sentence, right?

 

[Rob Lister]

...which is worth trying to prevent, even if it costs time and money, is how you were going to end that sentence, right?

It is certainly worth trying to prevent. Seems to me they are. Used to be that if you complained about being 'depressed' you would be told to buck-up and then sent back to your unit. The fact that they are perscribing anti-depressants actually surprises me.

Fact is, to get out of your obligation on a Section 8 is a pretty tough nut to crack (if I may pun). It can be done, but it ain't easy, and for good reason.

Now, if it were known that one could ship-out simply by saying you were 'depressed', then there would be a great many shipping-out, indeed.

 

[Polaris]

Except that guy who chucked a grenade into a tent to kill some fellow soldiers.

This thread seems to be conflating several different issues. "Screening, treating, and evacuating mentally unfit troops from Iraq." Enlistment is voluntary, but what happens to soldiers who develop mental problems once in? The suggestion is that to avoid "Klingers", the military is not taking mental illness among the troops seriously. That may or may not be true, but it's not the same as suggesting recruitment isn't voluntary.

Wasn't that guy a Muslim though? Seeing how he did it on the eve on an invasion of a Muslim country, and seeing how Islam has the top priority for any devout Muslim (yes, I'm questioning the loyalty of any American Muslim with the slightest hint of fundamentalism), then I see nothing insane in his actions in that context - no more insane than the Iranian scumbag who plowed his SUV into his fellow students at Chapel Hill. Criminal? Yes. Treasonous even? Possibly (certainly in the case of the 101st Airborne guy). But insane? I'm not so sure about that.

 

[Tricky]

What a bunch of ********. Trust "Tricky" to come up with such BS.

This is an all volunteer military. The draft days are long gone.

Frankly, if Tricky was in theater, I'd consider his allegations to be true.

He's clearly ill mentally.

LOL. You wanna flame, Hunster, we'll flame. I believe I could beat you with one frontal lobe tied behind my back.

But this thread is based on an article in CNN, not my allegations, I'm just commenting on them. What do you contest about the article? Even the military admits that they are sending troops on depression medication into battle. You think that's a good thing for their fellow soldiers?

 

[bigred]

EDIT: disregard initial comments.

fn Army.

 

[Ziggurat]

There have been twenty-two suicides, one fifth of all non-combat deaths.

There are some number of suicides on average in any large population, including the military. Is this number low, high, or typical for the military? These are also small numbers, so what's the statistically expected variability in the suicide rate for a single year? You haven't presented any information about that, and absent that information, this statement seems pretty meaningless. I'd hate to think you or CNN were trying to create a false impression by only posting selective information.

Why do scenes from Full Metal Jacket keep playing through my head?

I don't know. Have you thought about consulting a psychologist for treatment?

 

[JPK]

Good morning.
It's pretty sad when it's getting harder and harder to tell the differance between CNN and The Onion.
Clinton Deploys Very Special Forces To Iraq
JPK

 

[Rob Lister]

There are some number of suicides on average in any large population, including the military. Is this number low, high, or typical for the military? These are also small numbers, so what's the statistically expected variability in the suicide rate for a single year? You haven't presented any information about that, and absent that information, this statement seems pretty meaningless. I'd hate to think you or CNN were trying to create a false impression by only posting selective information.



I don't know. Have you thought about consulting a psychologist for treatment?

Zig, the number is roughly double that of the general population. CDC predicts 12 per 100,000 for 20-24 y/o -- an age representing the vast majority of those on station. There were 120,000 troops during that time frame.

I still don't find it surprising. War is a very, very stressful and depressing thing.

What I do find surprising is that the military actually issues anti-depressants now. Used to be they did not. Just "buck-up" soldier. Go talk to the Chaplin, yada.

Also, on a related note, lets return to what Tricky said in the opening post...

"There have been twenty-two suicides, one fifth of all non-combat deaths."

I can't get an exact correlation of 20-24 y/o group from cdc but I do get this...

From 15- 24 the death rate per 100,000 people is 90.3

I'm not sure if this comparison is relevant. I'm still mulling over it.

Still, 22*5 is 110.

110 there vice 90 here.

Not a hugh difference, given the circumstances.

 

[Ziggurat]

Zig, the number is roughly double that of the general population.

But that's not the relevant comparison. The military, even during peace time, has different characteristics than the general population (age distribution being an obvious one which is also connected to suicide rates, and which would suggest a higher expected suicide rate in the military even if the military was otherwise identical to the general population). The question is still how does this compare to past suicide rates in the military? That's really the only way to tell if this number is higher than expected, and how much higher.

I'm not sure if this comparison is relevant. I'm still mulling over it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to compare with those numbers.

 

[Tony]

Well, this is a revoltin' development. CNN Reports that people with diagnosed mental illness, some of them on anti-depressants, are being forced to fight in Iraq.
There have been twenty-two suicides, one fifth of all non-combat deaths.

Of course, there is a very good reason.

Yeah, like the personal need of being treated for mental illness.

And then, there is the need to keep Klingers from beating the system.

Why do scenes from Full Metal Jacket keep playing through my head?

It sounds like Frank Burns has taken full control of the military.

 

[Rob Lister]

But that's not the relevant comparison. The military, even during peace time, has different characteristics than the general population (age distribution being an obvious one which is also connected to suicide rates, and which would suggest a higher expected suicide rate in the military even if the military was otherwise identical to the general population). The question is still how does this compare to past suicide rates in the military? That's really the only way to tell if this number is higher than expected, and how much higher.



I'm not sure what you're trying to compare with those numbers.

Para1: I agree pretty much but I suspect the number of on-station suicides is greater than off-station suicides. I don't have direct data to back-up that suspision but occum's razor applies. Combat is a very, very stressful job -> stress increases the rate of depression -> depression sometimes results in suicide. I don't find it odd in the least that the numbers would be substantually higher.

Para2: it seems to suggest that being on station does not greatly raise the likilhood of non-combat death. I would suspect far more non-combat accidents and deaths given the day-to-day routine these soldier's face. I'm not stuck on it though. It just surprised me that the number wasn't higher.