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Meldrum's new paper / North American Ape Foot

Historian, the news article that I linked to incorrectly said it was a bear trap.

Try to at least pretend to read the other posts.

You did not mention that the board with the blood on it was a couple of years old when it was tested.

Why did you leave that out?
 
I think your "silly" is a bit harsh: It looks from the comments that the production crew carried on in the oldest and finest tradition of the Bigfoot hunt, e.g. "It's probably Bigfoot, all right. Let's go home!"
 
The only access to the lone cabin on the remote lake, was by float plane.

Oh, BS Histo. Those NW Ontario lakes are world renowned among fishermen. There are several outfitters and lodges that specialize in the lucrative tourist/fishing trade there (example). You can rent rooms at lodges, or rent remote cabins just like the one in the History channel show. They may be remote, but that in no way makes them unlikely to be visited by humans - its the remoteness that makes them popular!. In fact, I'll wager there are other cabins for rent on that same island. (and, don't you think fisherman might have another mode of transport for getting to the island?)

They were able to determine the size of the foot that was impaled on the screws. It was about 18 inches long.
Really now! How do you suppose they went about doing that after the board sat out in the elements for two years after having been stepped on? While were at it, why would anyone leave a bigfoot-stepped-on-board in the elements for two years knowing how valuable such a piece of evidence would be?
 
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Oh, BS Histo. Those NW Ontario lakes are world renowned among fishermen. There are several outfitters and lodges that specialize in the lucrative tourist/fishing trade there (example). You can rent rooms at lodges, or rent remote cabins just like the one in the History channel show. They may be remote, but that in no way makes them unlikely to be visited by humans - its the remoteness that makes them popular!. In fact, I'll wager there are other cabins for rent on that same island. (and, don't you think fisherman might have another mode of transport for getting to the island?)

Really now! How do you suppose they went about doing that after the board sat out in the elements for two years after having been stepped on? While were at it, why would anyone leave a bigfoot-stepped-on-board in the elements for two years knowing how valuable such a piece of evidence would be?

Looks like we are back to the old "Pummel the opposition with poorly thought out question technique" again. Not invented but certainly perfected by, Madurorob!

The lodge owner participated. As stated on the show, this was only cabin on lake. In winter the lake is iced over and not accessible. Sure you can rent rooms at lodges, but on a DIFFERENT lake because this was the only cabin on this lake. Please carefully note the word "DIFFERENT". Go back and watch the show. Oh, I forgot you never saw it in the first place and don't have it on tape. So you are up a creek on that one.

Blood was still on the board. A board has two sides. How do you know which side was left up? You don't! So you are guessing, again.

2 year old DNA is a problem? The internet notes 425 million year old DNA is identifiable. Ooops! Shot too soon from the hip on that one. Better take it out of the holster before you pull the trigger. Ouch!

Now try and follow me on this last one. The lodge owner only knew something strange was going on. It most likely took him awhile to figure out who to call. He may have not realized that the board was evidence until the scientists arrived. Only then did he know that a Sasquatch was the most likely culprit.

Yawn. You are losing your sharp whit, Madurorob. This isn't even challenging anymore.
 
2 year old DNA is a problem? The internet notes 425 million year old DNA is identifiable. Ooops! Shot too soon from the hip on that one. Better take it out of the holster before you pull the trigger. Ouch!

What are you talking about? A 2 year old unprotected DNA sample is certainly a problem.

No DNA was found at all until an unusual process was used on the sample, and then what was found is consistent with old, degraded, human, DNA.

The whole show is a joke, even among many bigfoot believers.

The bauman story... give us a break!
 
The lodge owner participated.
So you admit that this is a tourist destination and the likelihood of other humans visiting the cabin uninvited is really not that small. I accept your retraction.

As stated on the show, this was only cabin on lake.
Yep, I would have lost that bet.. its a TINY lake and the island itself is tiny. Only one cabin on that island, but many nearby and all of them relatively easy to access by boat - the primary means of transportation up there.

2 year old DNA is a problem? The internet notes 425 million year old DNA is identifiable. Ooops! Shot too soon from the hip on that one. Better take it out of the holster before you pull the trigger. Ouch!
Try to keep up, Histo. 2 year old DNA is not a problem at all. what is a problem is that the initial test found no usable DNA. The fact that they had to resort to some unknown "stripping" technique and even then returned DNA that was surprisingly human is, however, problematic to a bigfoot claim. Add to that the fact that even now, a full year later, no-one has published the results of that claimed non-human DNA string and it is easy to see that this DNA claim was nothing more than bluster and smokescreen. Any such finding would be earth-shattering. Yet we've heard exactly nothing on this over the past year.

Why is that, do ya think? NSA again? Please, do tell us more about the evil NSA anti-bigfoot plot!

So, I ask you again - who are the "several" scientists who confirmed the DNA and who has "authenticated" the process used to extract DNA from the screws (you claim on the DNA thread)?

Yawn. You are losing your sharp whit, Madurorob.

Silly histo, my wit has never been sharp. Lucky for me, thats not necessary in this interaction.

ETA: what the heck is a "whit"?
 
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Dr. Jeff Meldrum


Associate Professor Ph.D. , SUNY at Stony Brook, 1989 Anatomy, Evolutionary Morphology, Primatology, Paleontology


Dr. Jeff Meldrum is a professor of anatomy & anthropology at Idaho State University and affiliate curator at the Idaho Museum of Natural History. His formal study of primates began with doctoral research on terrestrial adaptations in African primates, and has since taken him from the dusty skeletal cabinets of far-flung museums to the remote badlands of Colombia and Argentina in search of fossil New World primates. He has published extensively on the evolutionary history of the South American primates and has described several new extinct species. He has documented varied primate locomotor specializations in laboratory and semi-natural settings. More recently his attention has returned to the emergence of modern human bipedalism. He co-edited and contributed to, From Biped to Strider: the Emergence of Modern Human Walking Running and Resource Transport (Kluwer-Plenum, 2004). His interests also encompass the evaluation of footprints, both in the lab and in the field, attributed to Sasquatch. Author of Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science, a companion volume to the Discovery Channel documentary, to be published by Forge later this year.
What makes you think your opinon means anything Lt ?

argument from authority.

bigfoot lives, in your head.

I would like to buy your soul. .05c is the bid.
 
I saw the show. they made the find sound very convincing despite the fact that the best conclusion they could muster is interesting or odd. It's the same old same old. if that really is dna from a bigfoot it's the most significant find in the history of cryptozoology because it means they're right for once. they had a bigfoot shaped foot injury that included hair, blood, and dna and the best they could come up with is one off from being a confirmed human hoaxer (by their own admission they were lucky to get any intact DNA so errors should come as to no surprise)? That's incredible!!! their science is so bad that evidence that should have exonerated them from their pseudoscientific status is just as ambiguous just as inconclusive as the footprints, the patterson film, and the eyewitness accounts.
 
2 year old DNA is a problem? The internet notes 425 million year old DNA is identifiable. Ooops! Shot too soon from the hip on that one. Better take it out of the holster before you pull the trigger. Ouch!

425 million year old DNA SEQUENCE are identifiable. From the article I checked 770 base pair. So if your claim is that a FULL genome of something was found from a fossile 425 million years old i would like to see it (and even then mind you it is DNA which is udenr fossilisation condition. Not outdoor in the weather).

Furthermore 770 pairs versus a full genome, you realize how many base pair there is in human DNA ? So yes, I contend that DNA of a human left outside could very well have missing sequence and be partly unusable. And that is a problem EVEN if they found DNA the first way around, before an unknown, probably non peer reviewed protocol was used to pull DNA from the screw. The second "round" with unknown method sound even more suspicious. And did the result pan out in the last year (test was in 2006 if I udnerstood post above) ? No. I will tell you why : garbage in, garbage out.
 
They dont walk up right all the time they get into what we call 4x4 mode where they use there hands as well as there feet to walk . This being the case there strides change .

tehn how do they handle the screw drivers they use to open the cans?
 
OK - back to the topic of the OP: Anthropoidipes ameriborealis (dammit, I promised I would never say that!)

I want to see how well I can fool the BF researchers. My plan is to buy a couple of castings of known hoaxed BF tracks (links have been posted elsewhere on this thread). I'll use these to make molds (with dermal ridges!). I have these neat rubber galoshes that fit over my shoes. I'll use them to affix the bigfoot feet to my shoes and then I'll go running where the tracks are sure to be found. I'm thinking my next trip to Eugene, Oregon will be a good place to start (I am, of course, not worried about the TSA confiscating my fake feet at my pre-flight screening as the NSA is clearly on my side).

Only problem is, what do I make the feet out of? I'm thinking something like ballisic gel that I can pour into the mold and stick the galoshes into while it sets. But, I think ballistic gel would fall apart too easily as I run.

What should I use instead?

(I'm not proposing anything illegal here, am I?)
 
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One word: shin splints. I need something to absorb the shock when I run!

(that was two words, wasn't it?)
 
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Well, you still have your shoes on, right? :D

You just screw an old set of comfy shoes to the wooden feet.

You can make nice pressure ridges for Meldrum's MTB theory that way.

Don't worry about the depth either. If you go deep, it's because you're so heavy. If you don't, it's your special foot padding and construction that spreads your weight out better.
 
Yankee Doodle went to task
A-riding on a pony
Stuck some wood beneath his shoes
And called it Anthropoidipes.
Yankee Doodle, keep it up
Yankee Doodle dandy
Mind the myth and watch your step
And with the girls be handy.
 
This will not increase my popularity among footers...

OK, at last I read Meldrum's paper more carefully. Here are some comments.

At the very Introduction of the paper, Meldrum assumes that bigfeet are real. It’s implicit from his review of the work made by Krantz. This is a major problem, since the existence of the creature is at least highly debatable. He states later, at the second paragraph of the Systematic Discussion
Meldrum said:
It should be noted that naming the tracks neither establishes the identity of the trackmaker, nor does it resolve the controversy over the existence of sasquatch.
This could be interpreted as an attempt to remain as neutral as possible regarding the existence of bigfoot. However, this is a feeble attempt. The whole article is based on the premise that bigfeet are real. This approach is mistaken or faulty; the correct position should be that the tracks can be explained by one or more of the following: (i) hoaxes; (ii) misinterpretations (iii) real bigfeet. This was not clearly stated at his paper.

This lack of impartiality or objectivity permeates the whole paper. PGF subject is accepted, for example, as being a real bigfoot. All that he writes about the controversies surrounding the footage is
Meldrum said:
Affirmative and skeptical reactions to the film include Meldrum (2006) and Daegling (2004).
That's all you are going to read about it there, folks... Controversial and conflicting timelines, versions, development time, Hieronimus, and the rest of PGF's shady story are ignored. Let me stress this point again: Everything that indicates that PGF is a hoax was ignored. He assumes Patty is a real Bigfoot and that the tracks were made by Patty. This is the core of his paper. A number of enthusiasts might feel Patty is the real deal, but PGF subject was never established as not being a human in a modified gorilla suit. Every single piece of evidence gathered and presented by its defenders has been successfully countered by skeptics. PGF is inconclusive at best and the worse of it all- it is tainted, since it is suspected to be a fraud. Data sets of such poor quality should not have been used as the backbone of a serious scientific work. Once again, this is nothing but biased and bad data handling.

Meldrum argues that it can be established from the similarity between the feet of PGF subject and the tracks that Patty created the tracks while the footage was being shot. Note that this by no means excludes the possibility that the feet of PGF’s subject were rigid and made of wood. Not even the possibility that the tracks were faked at an occasion independent from the shooting of the footage can be excluded by such argument.

Now, let’s look a bit further in to the casts themselves. Figure 1 shows replicas of Paterson's casts, while Figure 3 shows ten casts made by Titmus. They are virtually identical when it comes to morphology! Toe positions are virtually identical, there are no discernable changes in the relative positions. How likely it is that this could be seen in a track created by a real foot with mobile, articulated toes? This is major evidence, I think, that the tracks were created by stomping or pressing rigid fake (wooden) feet. Such hypothesis is not taken in to consideration by Meldrum.

This brings us again to PGF. Figure 5 is composed by cropped PGF frames. Meldrum claims the midfoot flexibility can be seen at the rightmost frame. The central frame is supposed to show dorsiflexion of toes. I can't see any of the features. These three frames also do nothing to help the "compliant gait" claim that could be one of the answers for the footprint morphology (see below and above).

Figures 5 to 8 are supposed to demonstrate evidence for mid-tarsal flexibility. Meldrum does not discuss the fact that similar tracks can be made by human feet and by rigid or flexible fake feet. There are several photographs available at the Internet showing tracks made by rigid and flexible feet as well as human feet (wearing shoes or not) with morphologies that are identical to what’s shown at these figures. This is ignored by Meldrum. Other problems related to the alleged mid-tarsal flexibility (non-opposing toes are present in non-flexible feet, inefficient energy transference, etc.) are also ignored.

Further ahead, Meldrum writes:
Meldrum said:
As noted by Meldrum (2006) the likelihood of a conspiracy of hoaxers, or simply anatomically-correct copy-cats, coordinated over a huge region for many decades is vanishingly small
This is an old argument raised by bigfoot proponents. And it’s easily refuted.
First of all, there's no need for a "conspiracy of hoaxers"; only a few isolated individuals who decided to have some fun or make money. Neither there is need for "anatomically-correct copy-cats". All it takes is a wood plank, carving tools and for the “anatomically-correct” model, take a look at your own feet. No, the odds are not "vanishingly small" especially when one takes in to account the existence of a bigfoot subculture and the possibility of somehow profiting from it (shades of Marx, Freeman, Biscardi, Moneymaker and Creekfreak, among others).

Meldrum does not help his own case by making the following ad hom:

Meldrum said:
For this reason it is worth pointing out that those inclined to take the probability of sasquatch’s existence seriously are either those with direct experience of seeing or hearing the animal, or seeing its tracks; whereas armchair skeptics have
little or no direct field experience or knowledge of how widespread the trackway evidence is.
Here Meldrum completely misses the mark, since many skeptics are not from the "armchair" variety, they include several experts in zoology, for example. Not to mention that among those who are "inclined to take the probability of sasquatch’s
existence seriously" there are many armchair footers... The most important point here is that if his text was supposed to be a scientific paper, Meldrum should have restricted himself to evaluate and attack the reasonings and not the evidences that could to counter his positions not those who present them. This was a basic mistake. He lowered himself to the same status of proponents who write angered posts aimed at skeptics at internet forums. No content, no evidence, only whining. Expressing frustration in such a manner is inadmissible at a serious scientific paper, regardless on how unhappy you are with the reception of your work. The proper way to counter would be by presenting good works with reliable evidence and sound reasonings.

A similar basic and unexplainable error follows:
Meldrum said:
That an “extinct” giant ape is accepted by science on the basis of such scant fossil evidence, one might ask why serious consideration has been slow in coming to the hundreds of documented footprints (not to mention sightings, vocalizations,
hair, scat, etc.).
I will not discuss anymore here the many problems with these evidence pieces as well as with the presumed affiliation of bigfeet to the Gigantopithecus genus. Dr Meldrum is, of course, aware of what's needed to describe a species. So, he knows perfectly why bigfeet are not recognized by mainstream science as real creatures. This sort of complaint has no space at a scientific paper.

I could go on pointing other flaws such as the highly imprecise location map, but I decided to stick to a few topics.

The bottomline is: No scientific paper should be backed by tainted evidence. PGF is suspected of being a hoax, this is more than enough to render it useless, its not reliable, its substandard evidence. Meldrum's paper is based on a piece of evidence that lacks quality, reliability and reproducibility. The old and worn-out "After 40 years skeptics have not managed to prove PGF is a hoax" line is completely irrelevant, since its defenders have not been able to prove it is not a hoax. Had a similar weight been applied to the hoax possibility, the paper would be more impartial and useful. A more ample, straightforward and balanced approach, using more data sets (other tracks) and exposing all possible explanations for (hoaxes, misidentifications and real bigfeet) would have more merit. Such an impartial and balanced approach should have been sought. Unfortunately, I consider the paper as being of little if any use to advance the cause of giant bipedal apes living in North America. It might sound OK for Bigfoot proponents, especially for those not very used to the scientific method, but it is more likely to be a shot in the feet.

The editor of Nature may be right, maybe its time for a more detailed look at some cryptids. But Meldrum, at this article, unfortunately, I'm afraid, missed the opportunity to advance the case.
 
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It is all based on his personal ideas regarding cast reliability.

We all know about the questions of dermal ridges being simply casting artifacts, we all know that the PGF is considered a hoax in many circles, and we also know of no bipedal species that has well-developed Achilles tendons combined with mid-foot flexibility.

He is saying, this will not settle the argument of whether BF exists, but PGF was real!


http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=20824&view=findpost&p=418673
 
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One of the strangest things about the paper is that Meldrum doesn't reference the Patterson-Gimlin film itself. Obviously it is important supporting evidence for his thesis but it is missing from the References. He could have at least referenced the LMS DVD, but he doesn't.

Imagine that you are a scientist and receive this paper and become investigatively curious yourself. Assuming good faith and professionalism, you give Meldrum the benefit of those and further presume that the references he gives are sufficient and appropriate to support his central thesis. You use his references and begin investigating. You never see the footage of Patty walking because he does not lead you to it. You also won't read Greg Long's focused biography of Roger Patterson. You won't learn much about the man who is closely associated with P&G and is confessing to the hoax with steadfast conviction. You won't read the NASI report either.

Yes, if you stick to Meldrum's references you will be steered clear of much of the good PGF skepticism and also some very crappy analysis done in support of the film. He seems to want to deprive his colleagues from seeing any dangling dingleberries that would spoil the mood and bring about justifiable doubt. Just believe would you please?
 

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