Melatonin?

[Soapy Sam]

And it seriously won't work for everyone. Like me.

luchog- possibly so. See my response to Gulliver a few posts up. I certainly don't claim it's universally effective, or the sole effective technique. Just one of many (medication free) methods worth a try.



Luciana- Don't dismiss it without giving it a try. I agree it is not easy to completely still the mind- and for some people it will not be possible. But it does work for some people and it's a skill which improves with practice, just like any other. Learning to cycle or type seems impossible at the first attempt.

I'm reasonably certain that the transcendental meditation technique where a mantra is repeated has much the same effect. I think reading a really dull book does the same. In both cases, the conscious process is simply swamped with uninteresting noise instead of being deliberately silenced, but the result is similar.

Whatever. Glad to hear you had a good kip last night. I wish you many more.

(By the way- I often didn't sleep just before my girlfriend's period too. It may be infectious).

 

[TobiasTheViking]

I use Melatonin. A good place to read about it is Wikipedia.

Melatonin is marketed as both a sleep aid and an antioxidant. The doses are different -- around 3 mg for antioxidant and just a few micrograms as a sleep aid (don't remember the exact number). A co-worker who reports he never sleeps took the antioxidant dosage by mistake and says he subsequently slept for 12 hours non-stop. I've been told the antioxidant dose is in the long run counterproductive to sleep. Perhaps it damages or exhausts the receptors. I've found it's most helpful if I need to sleep where it's not dark or quiet. What I've found it is not effective for is helping me sleep if I'm kept awake by disturbing thoughts.

I'm taking 9mg a day, which, according to what you say, would be the antioxidant. It is still working and i've been taking it for 2-3 years. I fail to see how it can damage or exhaust the receptors since it is a hormone being produced naturally in the brain.

And yes, it will make you tired, but thoughts, or the restless leg thingie, will keep you awake even with this medication.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I fail to see how it can damage or exhaust the receptors since it is a hormone being produced naturally in the brain.

It's only my hypothesis, but it's generally not a great idea to have in your body 10 times or 100 times the normal amount of a naturally occuring hormone. Weird stuff starts to happen, as is well known with steroids.

I'll get back to the group in a day or two to report the sleep dosage I normally take. Usually keeps me asleep for 8 hours straight in the middle of daylight but then I wake up with a headache.

 

[Hellbound]

Not an expert, but:

Tobias,with testosterone specifically, taking too much can cause opposing effects in the long term. The higher levels of the hormone in the body trigger biofeedback mechanisms so that the body stops producing it's own testosterone. This is what leads to some of the effects from some steroids. Testosterone injections are also being looked at as a form of male birth control.

I'd have to look up the studies, if you want them, but you should be able to find them as well as I can. I recall this from a TV show and an article I read a while back, so I can neither confirm nor deny the absolute accuracy of my information. However, I can state that artificially increased levels of hormones can cause the body to stop or lower the production of the same hormone, sometimes with long term effects.

 

[Mr. Scott]

I'll get back to the group in a day or two to report the sleep dosage I normally take. Usually keeps me asleep for 8 hours straight in the middle of daylight but then I wake up with a headache.

I'm taking 300 Mcg tablets of Rexall brand Melatonin to help induce sleep. That's 1/10 the antioxidant dosage.

While searching for info on that product, I found this interesting disclaimer letter to the FDA.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm taking 300 Mcg tablets of Rexall brand Melatonin to help induce sleep. That's 1/10 the antioxidant dosage.

While searching for info on that product, I found this interesting disclaimer letter to the FDA.

The reason for the disclaimer is because to make the claim the 'dietary supplement' has a 'pharmacological property' you then have your product regulated as a drug. It's a stupid cat and mouse game all dietary supplement makers play...make vague statements implying a claim without actually making a claim. It doesn't mean the products do or do not work though the vast majority of them have no evidence of effects claimed.

Even if there was substantial evidence the supplement had an effect, to make the claims and trigger drug category rules would mean you have to submit your own research showing your specific product had the effect and met certain manufacturing standards including having the plant you make the drug in meet certain standards.

Melatonin has lots of effects. One thing many people confuse though is they expect sedation and that isn't what it does.

MelatoninAbstract

Melatonin is a ubiquitous molecule and widely distributed in nature, with functional activity occurring in unicellular organisms, plants, fungi and animals. In most vertebrates, including humans, melatonin is synthesized primarily in the pineal gland and is regulated by the environmental light/dark cycle via the suprachiasmatic nucleus. Pinealocytes function as 'neuroendocrine transducers' to secrete melatonin during the dark phase of the light/dark cycle and, consequently, melatonin is often called the 'hormone of darkness'. Melatonin is principally secreted at night and is centrally involved in sleep regulation, as well as in a number of other cyclical bodily activities. Melatonin is exclusively involved in signaling the 'time of day' and 'time of year' (hence considered to help both clock and calendar functions) to all tissues and is thus considered to be the body's chronological pacemaker or 'Zeitgeber'. Synthesis of melatonin also occurs in other areas of the body, including the retina, the gastrointestinal tract, skin, bone marrow and in lymphocytes, from which it may influence other physiological functions through paracrine signaling. Melatonin has also been extracted from the seeds and leaves of a number of plants and its concentration in some of this material is several orders of magnitude higher than its night-time plasma value in humans. Melatonin participates in diverse physiological functions. In addition to its timekeeping functions, melatonin is an effective antioxidant which scavenges free radicals and up-regulates several antioxidant enzymes. It also has a strong antiapoptotic signaling function, an effect which it exerts even during ischemia. Melatonin's cytoprotective properties have practical implications in the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases. Melatonin also has immune-enhancing and oncostatic properties. Its 'chronobiotic' properties have been shown to have value in treating various circadian rhythm sleep disorders, such as jet lag or shift-work sleep disorder. Melatonin acting as an 'internal sleep facilitator' promotes sleep, and melatonin's sleep-facilitating properties have been found to be useful for treating insomnia symptoms in elderly and depressive patients. A recently introduced melatonin analog, agomelatine, is also efficient for the treatment of major depressive disorder and bipolar affective disorder. Melatonin's role as a 'photoperiodic molecule' in seasonal reproduction has been established in photoperiodic species, although its regulatory influence in humans remains under investigation. Taken together, this evidence implicates melatonin in a broad range of effects with a significant regulatory influence over many of the body's physiological functions.

The effect of melatonin on sedation of children undergoing magnetic resonance imaging. - In these doses and clinical conditions, melatonin did not contribute to sedation of children.

I read one study that it failed to help jet lag but I can't find it and don't know how good the study was. Personally, I find it very helpful and either because I wake up in REM sleep due to timing or the melatonin affects REM sleep, I find myself dreaming much more when I use it. I also find I sleep more soundly through the night though I still tend to wake up several times a night. With melatonin I return to sleep much faster.

I also take it a hour or so before bed and if I wait too long I don't bother. There is no sedation at all that I can detect. If I take it and don't get to bed, I may or may not get sleepy, but there is no perception of sedation like with a sleeping pill.

TobiasTheCommie says he takes 9 mg. I think that is likely more perception than need but there are very few studies to know for sure. 1.5mg is all I take and my 17 yr old son takes half of that once in a while when he sleeps in til 2pm or so on the weekend then has to go to bed before he's tired on Sunday night.

I wouldn't hesitate to give a small amount to younger kids once in a while when they were too excited to sleep before some event like a trip to Disneyland. Kids less than 5 or so don't have any trouble falling asleep so they wouldn't need it. If you had a child with a sleep problem like that mentioned with autism, I'd use it if the pediatrician agreed. I would NOT use it for the common sleep problems like infants and toddlers who cry at bedtime or want to sleep with Mom or something. Those are behavior problems not true sleep problems. They need behavior interventions.

I'd certainly try melatonin before I'd use Ambien or another sleeping pill unless there was a specific reason for the sleeping pill like being in the hospital. In that environment sedation might be necessary.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Not an expert, but:

Tobias,with testosterone specifically, taking too much can cause opposing effects in the long term. The higher levels of the hormone in the body trigger biofeedback mechanisms so that the body stops producing it's own testosterone. This is what leads to some of the effects from some steroids. Testosterone injections are also being looked at as a form of male birth control.

I'd have to look up the studies, if you want them, but you should be able to find them as well as I can. I recall this from a TV show and an article I read a while back, so I can neither confirm nor deny the absolute accuracy of my information. However, I can state that artificially increased levels of hormones can cause the body to stop or lower the production of the same hormone, sometimes with long term effects.

Hm, didn't think of that, and you are of course correct.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Not to mention sometimes increased excretion is triggered like it is with too much vitamin C.

 

[Luciana]

I went to a pharmacy looking for melatonin. "Melatonin what?", "Oh, those imported pills, right? No, sorry", "Melatonin? It's been prohibited since 2003".

Yeah, folks. I googled for it and found it was prohibited in Brazil because of "insufficient data on efficiency".

Ok, but what about those homeopathy remedies right at the counter??? Let's discuss efficiency again, it must mean something else I'm not aware of.

So that settles it.

For now, that is. After all, I can always travel abroad. Hmph.

 

[CFLarsen]

I went to a pharmacy looking for melatonin. "Melatonin what?", "Oh, those imported pills, right? No, sorry", "Melatonin? It's been prohibited since 2003".

Yeah, folks. I googled for it and found it was prohibited in Brazil because of "insufficient data on efficiency".

Ok, but what about those homeopathy remedies right at the counter??? Let's discuss efficiency again, it must mean something else I'm not aware of.

So that settles it.

For now, that is. After all, I can always travel abroad. Hmph.

Couldn't you get homeopathic melatonin?

 

[Temecula]

Thunderous necropost here, but this is the only topic i found.

I've been dealing with a particularly long bout of sleeplessness over the last 3 days, and today my doctor prescribed me Ambien(5mg). I'm too scared to take it because of the potential side effects, so I purchased some melatonin and took a 5mg softgel of it 30 minutes ago. I already feel relaxed and I am about to head to bed to see if it works. I doubt the relaxation is a placebo effect because I was pretty reluctant to believe it would work or have any effect. If this works, it could bring an end to about 10 years of using benadryl to sleep every night.

 

[Baylor]

I see you're still suffering from insomnia. I hope melatonin helps. Remember to stay away from your bed and out of your room unless you're sleeping. No Exceptions.

 

[leonAzul]

This thread has additional discussion: Melatonin - Woo or Not?

 

[sgtbaker]

Thunderous necropost here, but this is the only topic i found.

I've been dealing with a particularly long bout of sleeplessness over the last 3 days, and today my doctor prescribed me Ambien(5mg). I'm too scared to take it because of the potential side effects, so I purchased some melatonin and took a 5mg softgel of it 30 minutes ago. I already feel relaxed and I am about to head to bed to see if it works. I doubt the relaxation is a placebo effect because I was pretty reluctant to believe it would work or have any effect. If this works, it could bring an end to about 10 years of using benadryl to sleep every night.

I can definitely agree that there is a pysical response to taking melatonin. I prefer it especially because I don't wake up feeling drugged the next morning, the way sleeping pills, benedryl, or nyquil feel. The problem is, melatonin works to help my normal nightly difficulty falling asleep. It doesn't seem to have an effect on episodes of insomnia which range from dozing off for a few minutes then jumping awake all night to flat out not being able to keep my eyes closed. The only thing that really helps that is time and patience. Idle activities help me get through it; sudoku puzzles, crotcheting, etc. I try to avoid reading or writing in my journal because it gets me in an endless train of thought, which will only serve to keep me up for longer.

 

[Hellbound]

I can definitely agree that there is a pysical response to taking melatonin. I prefer it especially because I don't wake up feeling drugged the next morning, the way sleeping pills, benedryl, or nyquil feel. The problem is, melatonin works to help my normal nightly difficulty falling asleep. It doesn't seem to have an effect on episodes of insomnia which range from dozing off for a few minutes then jumping awake all night to flat out not being able to keep my eyes closed. The only thing that really helps that is time and patience. Idle activities help me get through it; sudoku puzzles, crotcheting, etc. I try to avoid reading or writing in my journal because it gets me in an endless train of thought, which will only serve to keep me up for longer.

I have bouts with a type of insomnia called Late Sleep Disorder; once asleep, I'll sleep a normal amount of time and wake up naturally, but I have a lot of difficulty falling asleep. Unless I'm completely exhausted, it takes me at least 30 minutes to fall asleep, average between an hour and an hour and a half, and sometimes several hours. This started when I was about 12 or 13, and has been a problem off and on since then.

What I used to do is read encyclopedias and dictionaries. There's no real plot, so it usually doesn't draw me in to keep me reading when I start getting tired (that endless thought loop you mentioned), and it makes one a veritable font of useless trivia

 

[shadron]

Nope. Forget it.

 

[Loss Leader]

Melatonin, as has been noted, is produced naturally by the body. My personal experience is that it wasn't very helpful for me. However, I attribute this to being young and producing sufficient melatonin.

As people age, their bodies produce less of the hormone. Elderly people have a great deal of dificulty staying asleep. If you are older or otherwise suffer from melatonin insufficiency, then replacement pills may be an excellent idea.

Of course, if they're illegal in your country, you should probably try something else.

 

[Hellbound]

My biggest issue is with the dosages. IIRC, some of the melatonin suppliments were in the range of 20mg, which is MUCH more than needed. Even less than a milligram seems to show effects in some studies, and dosages as small as 10mg to 20mg can be counterproductive. The wiki article has a lot of good information, especially in the "In Humans" and "Use as Medication" sections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin#In_humans and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin#Use_as_medication).

 

[Temecula]

I see you're still suffering from insomnia. I hope melatonin helps. Remember to stay away from your bed and out of your room unless you're sleeping. No Exceptions.

I've made some drastic changes to my "sleep hygiene". I no longer use the bed or bedroom for anything other than sleeping or sex, and I am reluctant to even recline on the couch once it is dark outside. I also use daylight fluorescent bulbs in my living room and If it is dark outside, those are on at all times. I've also begun changing my habit of [TMI] spending most of my time at home completely nude[/TMI] to staying fully clothed until just before bed. I'm a second shift worker, and for years that has meant staying up until 5 or even 6 am and sleeping until 1pm. My doctor advised me to try to alter that so that I am asleep by 1am. I was in bed by 1am last night, and although I didn't lose consciousness completely until about 230am, it's still a hell of an accomplishment.

I can't say for sure the melatonin made me sleep last night, but I can say for sure that about 30 minutes after i took it, it had stripped all of the sleep anxiety from me, and that just laying in bed in the dark felt the most satisfying it had since I was very young.

 

[Modified]

I'm taking 300 Mcg tablets of Rexall brand Melatonin to help induce sleep. That's 1/10 the antioxidant dosage.

I read an article about a "sleep doctor" who had his patients taking 300 mcg timed release, five hours before the target sleep time. Apparently this will give you levels close to what your body normally would. He also had them getting sun or full spectrum light first thing in the morning. These weren't insomniacs though, they were people who tended toward late sleep schedules (could sleep well if they went to bed at 4 AM and got up at noon, or something like that, but not on a "normal" schedule).