Melatonin?

[Luciana]

I remember reading some years ago that melatonin was excellent to regulate sleep. I also remember reading about a research that indicated it was a placebo. I've tried googling for it but I get too much conflicting information.

So what's an authoritative source to tell me if this works or not?

I've been having trouble sleeping for about 3 or 4 months. I intensified exercised, diminished caffeine and am trying to keep a bed routine, to no avail. I sleep either 12 or 3 hours at a time. I alternate insomnia with drowsiness, and I try to make up during the weekends, then I can't sleep at all on Monday.

I remember I took some melatonin in the past and I thought it worked. But might have been placebo! Now that I suspect it is, it won't work. I need facts to go and buy some of it.

I'm also having many episodes of sleep paralysis. It's always frightening, but now some of it is lucid, in that I repeat to myself it's a dream I'm fine it will be over soon it's only a dream. I'm tired and only wish a good night's sleep. It's getting ridiculous because I've been meaning to donate blood for two months now, but I won't if I'm not fully rested (been there, done that).

So... bogus or effective?

 

[Gulliver]

I'm not a doctor, and I don't even pay one on T.V.

Fellow Skeptic,

I'm married to an accomplished M. D. and associate professor of medicine. I have trouble sleeping. I've worked with over five specialists in tracking down the problem.

The summary of my advice: Go to your family doctor and work with her/him to resolve the problem.

Here's the long answer. Insomnia has many causes. Melatonin has the support of the weight of medical evidence that is does, in some cases, provide lasting relief. It can also have no effect, limited effect, and even the opposite effect! The effect can vary over time as the causes of insomnia in an individual can vary over time. You should be ready to move on to other solutions if it doesn't work (or even doesn't work reliably).

Personally, I share many of the same symptoms that you report, in particular, the lucid dreaming and resultant less than satisfying results. I have a myriad of serious problems unrelated to your situation including cancer. My family doctor, who is not my wife by the way, listened so very carefully. I left the office with a sample of Mirapex. I take .0125 mg about 30 minutes before retiring. I have to call this solution a miracle of modern science as I sleep without difficulty. I have even managed to accidentally confirm the effect on two occasions. I take about 10 pills at bedtime. The Mirapex is very small. Twice, I managed to miss taking the small pill with the rest, discovering the pill still in its compartment in my pill box array when I was unable to sleep.

That said, I encourage you to team with your doctor. Be skeptical. Be inquisitive. Be practical. But allow those you can aid you to do so. Google is good. M. D. education and experience is better.

Sweet Dreams Soon,
Gulliver

 

[TobiasTheViking]

I remember reading some years ago that melatonin was excellent to regulate sleep. I also remember reading about a research that indicated it was a placebo. I've tried googling for it but I get too much conflicting information.

So what's an authoritative source to tell me if this works or not?

I've been having trouble sleeping for about 3 or 4 months. I intensified exercised, diminished caffeine and am trying to keep a bed routine, to no avail. I sleep either 12 or 3 hours at a time. I alternate insomnia with drowsiness, and I try to make up during the weekends, then I can't sleep at all on Monday.

I remember I took some melatonin in the past and I thought it worked. But might have been placebo! Now that I suspect it is, it won't work. I need facts to go and buy some of it.

I'm also having many episodes of sleep paralysis. It's always frightening, but now some of it is lucid, in that I repeat to myself it's a dream I'm fine it will be over soon it's only a dream. I'm tired and only wish a good night's sleep. It's getting ridiculous because I've been meaning to donate blood for two months now, but I won't if I'm not fully rested (been there, done that).

So... bogus or effective?

I would say effective, and i feel i have evidence. i'll put it in my reply to gulliver(which is also this post).

Fellow Skeptic,

I'm married to an accomplished M. D. and associate professor of medicine. I have trouble sleeping. I've worked with over five specialists in tracking down the problem.

The summary of my advice: Go to your family doctor and work with her/him to resolve the problem.

Here's the long answer. Insomnia has many causes. Melatonin has the support of the weight of medical evidence that is does, in some cases, provide lasting relief. It can also have no effect, limited effect, and even the opposite effect! The effect can vary over time as the causes of insomnia in an individual can vary over time. You should be ready to move on to other solutions if it doesn't work (or even doesn't work reliably).

Personally, I share many of the same symptoms that you report, in particular, the lucid dreaming and resultant less than satisfying results. I have a myriad of serious problems unrelated to your situation including cancer. My family doctor, who is not my wife by the way, listened so very carefully. I left the office with a sample of Mirapex. I take .0125 mg about 30 minutes before retiring. I have to call this solution a miracle of modern science as I sleep without difficulty. I have even managed to accidentally confirm the effect on two occasions. I take about 10 pills at bedtime. The Mirapex is very small. Twice, I managed to miss taking the small pill with the rest, discovering the pill still in its compartment in my pill box array when I was unable to sleep.

That said, I encourage you to team with your doctor. Be skeptical. Be inquisitive. Be practical. But allow those you can aid you to do so. Google is good. M. D. education and experience is better.

Sweet Dreams Soon,
Gulliver

I disagree with this. Melatonin is a natural hormone, and, depending no the reason for the sleeping disorder, may or may not work. If it works it should work permantently.

Melatonin is a natural hormone that is produced in the brain. It is used to make the human body have a 24 hour rythm instead of the 25 hour rythm you would have without the melatonin. It makes you tired.

Since this is natural to the body, and produced by the body, saying that it can have the opposite effect is, imo, the same as saying thestosterone may have the opposite effect. And i have never heard of that(that is not to say it isn't possible, i just don't know).

That being said, i would like to repeat that it isn't the cure for all sleep deprevation. One of my friends gets tired but can't fall asleep, it won't work for him. Me, and my sister (and most people with autism) don't get tired, and if that is the case, then Melatonin is a viable solution(atleast most of the time).

But while this is a good option for me, it is impossible for me to say if it will be usefull for Luciana Nery. Especially since Luciana Nery alternates between insomnia and drowsiness.

My argument here is solely about the status on Melatonin, nothing else.

A few sources for my argument.

Medicine Most people with autism have sleeping disorders.[1] I have yet to find a good verifiable number of the amount.
From some psychologists i've heard that 80% of all autists have sleeping disorders.

A study of only 14 children with autism showed that none of them had the normal amount of melatonin as compared to the control group[2].

RESULTS: No autistic patient showed a normal MLT(pineal hormone melatonin) circadian rhythm. Moreover, autistic children showed significantly lower mean concentrations of MLT mainly during the dark phase of the day,...
Further study was recomended, and a bigger test group should be used to get a better result.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=15652871&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=11455326&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

Just trying to give evidence for my argument that it is natural. Which should be clear when the scientists are talking about "normal MLT".

Sincerely
Tobias

 

[Soapy Sam]

As an oilfield service hand (half man half mattress) I learned how to sleep anywhere , anytime, a long time ago. It was that or die. I suspect the ex-military types here will have learned the same thing.

1. Lie down and close eyes. (When you reach 10th DAN this step is not necessary).
2. Kill all conscious neural process. Dead.
Sleep then happens.

The secret is that I do mean ALL conscious neural process. Don't think about anything at all, even for a second, after closing your eyes. Not friends, not work EMPHATICALLY NOT SEX, not invisible unicorns, not sheep, not tomorrow, not thinking, not anything.
Sleeping is serious business, just like exercise. Try to see it that way and be disciplined about it. (Modify whatever mental preparation routine you use at the gym). This may take practice, like any skill. Try at work. I'm sure you have time there.

Seriously. It's a skill. It can be mastered like any skill. You just temporarily forgot how to do it. Best of luck.

 

[Gulliver]

Many different problems require many different solutions.

As an oilfield service hand (half man half mattress) I learned how to sleep anywhere , anytime, a long time ago. It was that or die. I suspect the ex-military types here will have learned the same thing.

1. Lie down and close eyes. (When you reach 10th DAN this step is not necessary).
2. Kill all conscious neural process. Dead.
Sleep then happens.

The secret is that I do mean ALL conscious neural process. Don't think about anything at all, even for a second, after closing your eyes. Not friends, not work EMPHATICALLY NOT SEX, not invisible unicorns, not sheep, not tomorrow, not thinking, not anything.
Sleeping is serious business, just like exercise. Try to see it that way and be disciplined about it. (Modify whatever mental preparation routine you use at the gym). This may take practice, like any skill. Try at work. I'm sure you have time there.

Seriously. It's a skill. It can be mastered like any skill. You just temporarily forgot how to do it. Best of luck.

I enjoyed your personal account and believe that many will benefit from your statements. Indeed, reviewing your solution with Dr. (Mrs.) Gulliver, I as amazed at how useful she found your comments. Good work.

However, I must respectfully object if you implied, I certainly inferred, that your one solution properly implemented would solve all insomnia problems. I'm sure your intentions are honorable. I believe, however, that you fail to consider that many insomnia sufferers have serious organic bases for their conditions. For example, no amount of practice will allow a sufferer with a lithium imbalance (mania) to cease conscious neural processes at will. Those who suffer for Restless Leg Syndrom (RLS), for example, find that some subconscious process requires them to move their legs just as consciousness lapses, much to their waking chagrin.

Please also consider the mental discipline of one of our heros, Randi. After his recent sugergy, he suffered from serious insomnia. I offer that if anyone I know has the mental discipline to conquer insomnia, it's Randi. His struggle following his medical problems and serious medications should give us pause to consider that the mind cannot always alone grant us needed sleep.

Please allow me to renew my appeal that those who can't resolve their insomnia before it begins to affect their lives seek medical assistance.

Respectfully,
Gulliver

 

[Gulliver]

Permanent? Paradox? Probably?

...

I disagree with this. Melatonin is a natural hormone, and, depending no the reason for the sleeping disorder, may or may not work. If it works it should work permantently.

Melatonin is a natural hormone that is produced in the brain. It is used to make the human body have a 24 hour rythm instead of the 25 hour rythm you would have without the melatonin. It makes you tired.

Since this is natural to the body, and produced by the body, saying that it can have the opposite effect is, imo, the same as saying thestosterone may have the opposite effect. And i have never heard of that(that is not to say it isn't possible, i just don't know).

...

Sincerely
Tobias

Tobias,

Thank you for the critique. I never wish to respond defensively. Indeed your comments have caused over an hour of discussion with my favorite health care provider (Mrs. and Dr. Gulliver). I've learned a lot thanks to your efforts.

Allow me to respond to two of your points in order.

1) You disagreed with my statement that melatonin might not provide lasting effects stating, "If it works it should work permantently(sic)." I believe that you don't mean what you wrote. For example, On Monday a person may after flying from Paris to Los Angeles suffer jetlag. Melatonin may, indeed probably will, resolve this problem. On Friday, the same person may experience restless leg syndrome and be unable to sleep--but already have normal levels of natural melatonin. Ingesting more melatonin may not, and probably will not, solve this problem. Since insomnia may be caused by various agents in the same person, we shouldn't expect that once melatonin worked for an individual that it would work permanently (That's a long time for a skeptic!).

2) You disagreed that melatonin might have the opposite effect stating, "Since this is natural to the body, and produced by the body, saying that it can have the opposite effect is, imo, the same as saying thestosterone(sic) may have the opposite effect. And i have never heard of that (that is not to say it isn't possible, i just don't know)." I appreciate the framing of your statement. You are wise and humble. That said; allow me to provide more details about my claim. I must, first, admit that I know of no fully documented cases of melatonin having a paradoxical effect. But I do offer that we cannot rule it out. There are many astounding paradoxical effects of treatments. Who, for example, would prescribe a stimulant to a child suffering from an illness characterized by hyperactivity? But that's exactly what many doctors do in treating AD/HD and AHD. Another example would be the effect of antihistamines. Many doctors suggest the use of Benedryl (Diphenhydramine) for its sedating effect (sometimes even for insomniacs!). However, for 10% of those with AD/HD it has the paradoxical effect. Now, as for my claim that melatonin might have a paradoxical effect please consider that our endocrine system is not a simple system and that human physiology varies greatly between individuals. If your body already have enough melatonin, taking more orally might cause a disturbance and a even a failure of other systems. Such a disturbance might keep you awake. That said, I did ask Dr. Gulliver about this. She agreed with you in that she's never encountered a paradoxical effect of melatonin, and she's recommended melatonin successfully to hundreds of patients in her twenty years of practice, especially to pilots and truck drivers. She does, however, very much wish us to remain skeptical and allow that any medication (and, yes, taking a "natural" hormone orally is a medication) can have paradoxical effects.

Here's one source for most of my claims: http://www.additudemag.com/medical.asp?DEPT_NO=500&SUB_NO=3

With thanks,
Gulliver

 

[CFLarsen]

Don't think about anything at all, even for a second, after closing your eyes. Not friends, not work EMPHATICALLY NOT SEX, not invisible unicorns, not sheep, not tomorrow, not thinking, not anything.

Isn't that thinking about something?

Hey, next time you go to sleep, don't think of an elephant!

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Tobias,

Thank you for the critique. I never wish to respond defensively. Indeed your comments have caused over an hour of discussion with my favorite health care provider (Mrs. and Dr. Gulliver). I've learned a lot thanks to your efforts.

Thanks And i'm happy you have learned something, that is always good.

Allow me to respond to two of your points in order.

1) You disagreed with my statement that melatonin might not provide lasting effects stating, "If it works it should work permantently(sic)." I believe that you don't mean what you wrote. For example, On Monday a person may after flying from Paris to Los Angeles suffer jetlag. Melatonin may, indeed probably will, resolve this problem. On Friday, the same person may experience restless leg syndrome and be unable to sleep--but already have normal levels of natural melatonin. Ingesting more melatonin may not, and probably will not, solve this problem. Since insomnia may be caused by various agents in the same person, we shouldn't expect that once melatonin worked for an individual that it would work permanently (That's a long time for a skeptic!).

Me, personally, have a permanent defficiancy in the production of melatonin, so i have to take it for it to help. What i wanted to write is that for a case like mine melatonin should work permanently. I think i was very carefull to say it depended on what the cause for the sleeping disorder was, and i do agree that for RLS it probably won't do any good.

I wrote.

... depending no the reason for the sleeping disorder, may or may not work. If it works it should work permantently.

Melatonin is a natural hormone that is produced in the brain. It is used to make the human body have a 24 hour rythm instead of the 25 hour rythm you would have without the melatonin. It makes you tired.

....

That being said, i would like to repeat that it isn't the cure for all sleep deprevation. One of my friends gets tired but can't fall asleep, it won't work for him. Me, and my sister (and most people with autism) don't get tired, and if that is the case, then Melatonin is a viable solution(atleast most of the time).

Though i should have appended "because almost all (if not all) autists naturally have Melatonin defficiancy".

Hope that makes my position clearer.

2) You disagreed that melatonin might have the opposite effect stating, "Since this is natural to the body, and produced by the body, saying that it can have the opposite effect is, imo, the same as saying thestosterone(sic) may have the opposite effect. And i have never heard of that (that is not to say it isn't possible, i just don't know)." I appreciate the framing of your statement. You are wise and humble. That said; allow me to provide more details about my claim. I must, first, admit that I know of no fully documented cases of melatonin having a paradoxical effect. But I do offer that we cannot rule it out. There are many astounding paradoxical effects of treatments. Who, for example, would prescribe a stimulant to a child suffering from an illness characterized by hyperactivity? But that's exactly what many doctors do in treating AD/HD and AHD.

I have, personally, made great efforts to get my sister on amphetamines for just this reason. So i do know this. But yes, to many people that is counter intuitive.

Another example would be the effect of antihistamines. Many doctors suggest the use of Benedryl (Diphenhydramine) for its sedating effect (sometimes even for insomniacs!). However, for 10% of those with AD/HD it has the paradoxical effect. Now, as for my claim that melatonin might have a paradoxical effect please consider that our endocrine system is not a simple system and that human physiology varies greatly between individuals. If your body already have enough melatonin, taking more orally might cause a disturbance and a even a failure of other systems. Such a disturbance might keep you awake.

True, i was writting from the opinion that this was a permanent physical condition(like in my case), in which case i would stand by my claim. But i didn't explicitly write that, and thus it might have been misunderstood to mean that i thought it in all cases.

But yes, if there isn't a permanent physical condition then it might cause a problem to take melatonin over a period of time. I will also admit that when i wrote my prior post i forgot to think about that, i was very locked and thought only about how it is for me.

That said, I did ask Dr. Gulliver about this. She agreed with you in that she's never encountered a paradoxical effect of melatonin, and she's recommended melatonin successfully to hundreds of patients in her twenty years of practice, especially to pilots and truck drivers. She does, however, very much wish us to remain skeptical and allow that any medication (and, yes, taking a "natural" hormone orally is a medication) can have paradoxical effects.

Here's one source for most of my claims: http://www.additudemag.com/medical.asp?DEPT_NO=500&SUB_NO=3

With thanks,
Gulliver

I see it as medication as well. One of the reasons i'm not really afraid of Melatonin and the bad effects it might have is:

[anecdotal]
My shrink works with a girl who took 40+ pills to commit suicide, didn't work, and the doctor told her that it would take a lot more of those pills.
[/evidence]

Thanks for the link, i'll read it now.

Also thanks for a good reply, it made me realize some of the errors i make when i argue (assume people read it the same way i do, and only focus on a few areas without specifying i'm doing it).

Sincerely
Tobias

 

[TobiasTheViking]

From the article:

Nothing is gained by using doses greater than one milligram. Melatonin may not be effective the first night, so several nights’ use may be necessary for effectiveness.

I can't accept that for now.

Anecdotal, i know, but 6mg isn't enough for me, 9mg is.

The head doctor of Bispebjerg Hospital (and the leading in his field in denmark, and afaik the most of the world) gave me these pills, told me to take 6mg for a week, if it wasn't enough i should try 9(because i weigh a lot). His name is "Ole Sylvester Jørgensen" and i have a great deal of respect for him. And i believe him untill he is proven wrong.

Besides for that i either agreed with everything on the page, or didn't know it well enough to have an opinion on it. It was very interesting though, thanks

 

[This Guy]

More anecdotal stuff.

I used to pride myself on my ability to sleep anytime and anywhere (once slept topside on a submarine, in a rain storm).

But as I've gotten older, I find that sometimes I have trouble sleeping. The fact that I work 3rd shift (about 22:30 - about 0630) I'm sure has something to do with that.

I use Melatonin. Normally on a day after basis. If I don't sleep well today, I'll take a Melatonin tomorrow before bed. I don't take them often. Currently I have a bottle that is about 3 years old(I think). It had 120 tablets new, and I count 15 remaining. Noticed while counting them, that there is a date stamped on the label - Jul 2006. Guess it's time to get a new batch. These are 3mg. I started using Melatonin about 7 years ago I guess. Had some personal things going on that was causing a lot of stress, and was also doing a lot of traveling in my job. Sleeping more in hotels than home for many months. Saw something on TV about Melatonin, and decided to give it a try. Bought a bottle of 1mg pills. That lasted several years. Couldn't find anything less than 3mg when I bought the 2nd bottle (mentioned above).

The only problem I've ever had with Melatonin is that sometimes I feel a bit off kilter when I wake up. Nothing bad, just a bit less awake than I would be if I hadn't taken them. Normally after a cup of coffee, I'm fine. If I know I'm going to take one before bed, I make sure I'm ready for bed in time to get at least 8 hours sleep.

So, for what it's worth, I use Melatonin, and it appears to work for me.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Gulliver- I'm assuming (from what I know of Luciana) that she is an essentially fit, healthy young woman with no organic neural problems such as you refer to.
The fact that she says she has had problems for a few months (so it's not a chronic problem) tends to support this.
I completely agree that "concentrating on not concentrating" won't work (indeed may be impossible) for people who are genuinely ill. It's an easy trick though, totally free and certainly worth a try.
Those of us lucky enough to be good sleepers tend to take it for granted, but like any other bodily activity there are good and bad ways to approach it.

Claus- Not Indian , or not African?

 

[Wavicle]

So what's an authoritative source to tell me if this works or not?

So... bogus or effective?

There are a number of properly controlled scientific experiments regarding melatonin showing all sorts of interesting, generally benificial, properties. I don't think anybody seriously doubts the effectiveness of melatonin as a sleep aid. If you want to convince yourself of this, have a friend put two 1mg melatonin in one pill box, and two generic acetaminophen in another, without telling anybody which is which. Have them give the pill boxes to another friend, and then give one box to you. I'd be pretty shocked if the results were not fairly obvious to you. Even if it doesn't make you sleep, it will almost certainly make you drowsy.

That said, I've been using melatonin for several years with odd results. The first bottle I ever used was like a miracle. 30 minutes after taking it I was wiped out tired. I went to bed and slept 8 hours +/- 15 minutes. The alarm never went off before I awoke. That was 10 years ago. I've never had a "hit" like that since. It still works, just not as well. I have also noticed that once I take melatonin, if I do not go to bed within 30 minutes of onset of drowsyness, my body appears to metabolize the stuff out of my blood stream and I'm back to square one again. I get to sleep easier if I take more, but I seem to wake up more groggy when I take more (yes I know that seems to contradict my metabolizing theory, no I can't explain it).

Check the wikipedia entry on melatonin. They have several references to respectable studies on melatonin. With rare exception it's either helpful or harmless to take it. My wife is one of the rare exceptions who will get a painfully bad night's sleep if she takes a melatonin supplement (which she doesn't really need, her sleep cycle seems pretty normal).

If it helps any, melatonin is the only "natural" supplement I have ever heard a chiropractor rail against. Apparently echinacea and golden seal are natural and wonderful, but melatonin is natural and evil. The difference? Apparently since your body produces melatonin there should be no need for you to take it as a supplement. Maybe your sleep issues are caused by your chi being stuck in your 5th cervical vertabrae and they need to release it with a crack.

 

[blutoski]

I remember reading some years ago that melatonin was excellent to regulate sleep. I also remember reading about a research that indicated it was a placebo. I've tried googling for it but I get too much conflicting information.

So what's an authoritative source to tell me if this works or not?

I've been having trouble sleeping for about 3 or 4 months. I intensified exercised, diminished caffeine and am trying to keep a bed routine, to no avail. I sleep either 12 or 3 hours at a time. I alternate insomnia with drowsiness, and I try to make up during the weekends, then I can't sleep at all on Monday.

I remember I took some melatonin in the past and I thought it worked. But might have been placebo! Now that I suspect it is, it won't work. I need facts to go and buy some of it.

I'm also having many episodes of sleep paralysis. It's always frightening, but now some of it is lucid, in that I repeat to myself it's a dream I'm fine it will be over soon it's only a dream. I'm tired and only wish a good night's sleep. It's getting ridiculous because I've been meaning to donate blood for two months now, but I won't if I'm not fully rested (been there, done that).

So... bogus or effective?

I think this is one case where something that sounds altie has enough credibility for me to say that it could have benefit. It's usually better than placebo.

However, there are three major problems with melatonin solutions to sleep problems:

1. it does not address the underlying problem (esp. day-sleeping. studies show it's next-to-useless for fixing daytime sleep problems)
2. the scientific literature shows trivial improvement (it does not appear to precipitate a 'good' night's sleep - just a slightly less crappy one - overall a 6% reduction in waking events)
3. while dosage doesn't seem to be important to the results, there are the usual problems with manufacturing consistency. According to a recent ConsumerLab test, about 1/3 of the brands had no active ingredient.


My experience: went through an undergrad doing night shifts in a factory. Terrible sleep problems. The solution I found worked best was to do the tinfoil thing on the windows, turn on a $20 oscillating fan for white noise and temperature/circulation, and wear those cheap disposable earplugs to block out noise.

This is consistent with the scientific findings: melatonin's effects cannot compensate for a bad sleeping environment.

PubMed: Sleep-facilitating effect of exogenous melatonin in healthy young men and women is circadian-phase dependent.

 

[luchog]

Sleeping is serious business, just like exercise. Try to see it that way and be disciplined about it. (Modify whatever mental preparation routine you use at the gym). This may take practice, like any skill. Try at work. I'm sure you have time there.

Seriously. It's a skill. It can be mastered like any skill. You just temporarily forgot how to do it. Best of luck.

And it seriously won't work for everyone. Like me.

I used to be able to do this, having learned the skill in the military. However, for ther last 10 years or so, I have developed an pervasive, and so far untreatable, primary insomnia. No technique or medication so far tried by any of the doctors I have seen, including a sleep specialist, has had better than sporadic and inconsistent results. Nothing. I've always had difficulty falling asleep, my entire life. Interestingly, the previous post about autists having abnormal Melanin production sort of fits with that, since I've been tentatively (not formally) diagnosed as mild Asperger's autistic. However, starting almost exactly 10 years ago, the problem increased dramatically, and has gotten progressively worse ever since.

I have pretty much given up on the idea of ever sleeping normally again, and just rely on an assortment of drugs, legal and otherwise, to give me some vague semblence of normal functionality.

 

[Wavicle]

This is consistent with the scientific findings: melatonin's effects cannot compensate for a bad sleeping environment.

PubMed: Sleep-facilitating effect of exogenous melatonin in healthy young men and women is circadian-phase dependent.

Wait... The article you link doesn't corroborate any of what you said except that dose doesn't matter. I would hold that study up as further evidence of the efficacy of melatonin.

 

[blutoski]

Wait... The article you link doesn't corroborate any of what you said except that dose doesn't matter. I would hold that study up as further evidence of the efficacy of melatonin.

It's only one of several studies, but this one does say that its efficacy is kiboshed by day challenges. Even the title says that: "Circadian-phase dependent"

Try skimming through PubMed for others. Keywords: "melatonin AND study AND insomnia" ("melatonin" alone gives too many hits for its use in other therapies unrelated to sleep disorders)

 

[Wavicle]

It's only one of several studies, but this one does say that its efficacy is kiboshed by day challenges. Even the title says that: "Circadian-phase dependent"

Ummm, let me check again...

CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous melatonin administration possesses circadian-phase-dependent hypnotic properties, allowing for improved consolidation of sleep that occurs out of phase with endogenous melatonin secretion during the circadian night.

"Exogenous melatonin" is the supplement you take as a pill. Endogenous melatonin is the stuff secreted by your pineal gland when your circadian rhythm believes it should be night time. Out of phase suggests to me they're looking at the efficacy of melatonin at times other than when your body is producing its own.

Try skimming through PubMed for others. Keywords: "melatonin AND study AND insomnia" ("melatonin" alone gives too many hits for its use in other therapies unrelated to sleep disorders)

Okay, I did that. On the first page, the hits I get:

Melatonin for cognitive impairment. Suggests that melatonin isn't effective for treating dementia (it is posited that decreased endogenous melatonin production in old age is partially responsible for dementia. This study suggests a melatonin supplement doesn't seem to help.) Not a sleep issue.

The efficacy and safety of exogenous melatonin for primary sleep disorders. A meta-analysis. I don't trust a meta-analysis in general since it is looking for something the original studies were not looking for, but this one suggests melatonin isn't good for most sleep disorders, but states some for which it appears to be effective.

Influence of melatonin on fatigue severity in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and late melatonin secretion. As its conclusion says: Melatonin may be an effective treatment for patients with CFS and late DLMO, especially in those with DLMO later than 22.00 hours.

Effect of melatonin-rich night-time milk on sleep and activity in elderly institutionalized subjects. Yet another study advocating melatonin as it appeared to improve the activity of elderly institutionalized patients during their awake hours.

Prediction of melatonin efficacy by pretreatment dim light melatonin onset in children with idiopathic chronic sleep onset insomnia. I like the very first sentence of this one: Research has shown efficacy of melatonin treatment to advance sleep-wake rhythms in insomnia.

Circadian rhythm sleep disorders as a possible side effect of fluvoxamine. This isn't really a melatonin study, but the researchers do make a wild guess that symptoms could probably be alleviated by taking melatonin.

Melatonin rhythm abnormalities and sleep disorders in the elderly. from their conclusion: From the results of our study, it seems likely that melatonin replacement therapy may be beneficial in the initiation and maintenance of sleep in this population.

Effects of exogenous melatonin on sleep: a meta-analysis. Weird, this looks exactly like the earlier study, only it was done by different people. Anyway, they conclude people who have insomnia would probably benefit from taking melatonin.

Polysomnographic study of the effect of melatonin on sleep in elderly patients with chronic primary insomnia. Once again, from the conclusion: Our results further support the proposal that melatonin is beneficial for sleep disturbances in elderly insomniacs.

Okay, I'm tired now. I've read through the abstracts of the first 20 hits on the search recommended and only one of them, a meta-analysis, suggested that melatonin was no better than placebo. I'm lost. What is the issue with melatonin and where is the research to support it?

 

[Luciana]

Wow, folks, thanks! The problem with going to a doctor is that I would have to find time for that. Pills would be the laziest way to solve the problem.

Yesterday I slept like a baby. The recipe was a truly boring book on Latin American history. I'm recommending that one to friends.

It has a lot to with being able to unwind. Soapy, not even as a kid I slept fast. I go to bed thinking of... everything. Can't help it. Sometimes I try and concentrate on an image of myself sleeping... not always works.

I have a very specific kind of insomnia that seems to be related to hormones - one day before my period comes, I can't sleep. At all. I try all positions in the pillow and it's never comfortable. However, this insomnia is an "old friend", happens everytime and I'm used to it. It's the best predictor in regard to when my period is coming.

And now I'm thinking - could my current insomniac constant state be related to an hormone imbalance? I slacked with contraceptive pills some months ago, then stopped completely. My overwhelming ignorance cannot see a link between the hormones the pill deals with and melatonin, also an hormone. Could there be a link? Could that explain my wacky circadian rhythm?

 

[Wavicle]

And now I'm thinking - could my current insomniac constant state be related to an hormone imbalance? I slacked with contraceptive pills some months ago, then stopped completely. My overwhelming ignorance cannot see a link between the hormones the pill deals with and melatonin, also an hormone. Could there be a link? Could that explain my wacky circadian rhythm?

I don't see melatonin being a silver bullet to solve premenstrual restlessness, but all the literature seems to indicate that melatonin does not produce harmful side effects. I suggest trying melatonin on a night you don't expect to have trouble sleeping and see what happens. If that goes okay, try it on a night you're having trouble sleeping.

At worst, it appears the results will be no improvement. In this case that appears to be a fairly high probability. However it doesn't really cost that much to find out and it just might work. Unfortunately if it doesn't work you may have a nagging suspicion that the reason was quality control. Can't really do much there. As a "dietary supplement" there isn't a whole lot of production oversight by an outside agency.

 

[Mr. Scott]

My Own Melatonin Experiences

I use Melatonin. A good place to read about it is Wikipedia.

Melatonin is marketed as both a sleep aid and an antioxidant. The doses are different -- around 3 mg for antioxidant and just a few micrograms as a sleep aid (don't remember the exact number). A co-worker who reports he never sleeps took the antioxidant dosage by mistake and says he subsequently slept for 12 hours non-stop. I've been told the antioxidant dose is in the long run counterproductive to sleep. Perhaps it damages or exhausts the receptors. I've found it's most helpful if I need to sleep where it's not dark or quiet. What I've found it is not effective for is helping me sleep if I'm kept awake by disturbing thoughts.