Medium finds missing woman in UK river

[GlennB]

What you said was:

That is a minimum of 2000 (two tens of hundreds).

You'll now be told that the final 'and' in the second quote is a typo.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

You've lost the thread again

...in more senses than one.

 

[Darat]

The Coroner does have that authority and has issued a gagging order on the Lancashire Police, together with a request for people not to speculate. The Press follow press protocol, which is to not report on matters that are subjudice.

Why do you think it has gone quiet?

https://news.lancashire.gov.uk/news/inquest-into-death-of-nicola-bulley-opened


As discussed before, a Home Office Forensic Pathologist has been appointed for a second post-mortem. If this involves any type of criminal suspicion, there are strict secrecy laws guarding against the possibility of any information at all being released that could jeopardise a fair trial.

Note Jason Rothwell has not given any newspaper interview, and that is very likely because the police has advised him not to at this stage. You can be certain there has been enormous interest from the press wanting Mr. Rothwell's story.

And a load of stuff that once again fails to support your claim.

 

[Vixen]

What you said was:

That is a minimum of 2000 (two tens of hundreds).

WRONG! My use of the phrase 'tens of hundreds' clearly indicates a figure of speech, since no specific number is claimed (unlike Compus' figure of 2,000). I believe this to be near the actual figure employed but as that is not known, hence the use of the inexact 'tens of hundreds'.

Stop being obtuse just for the sake of it. You knew perfectly well it was a turn of phrase.

 

[Vixen]

You'll now be told that the final 'and' in the second quote is a typo.

<YAWN>. How do you not find these dull irrelevances boring?

 

[zooterkin]

WRONG! My use of the phrase 'tens of hundreds' clearly indicates a figure of speech, since no specific number is claimed (unlike Compus' figure of 2,000). I believe this to be near the actual figure employed but as that is not known, hence the use of the inexact 'tens of hundreds'.

Stop being obtuse just for the sake of it. You knew perfectly well it was a turn of phrase.

So, when you said "literally tens of hundreds", you didn't mean 'literally'?

 

[Vixen]

And a load of stuff that once again fails to support your claim.

If you do not wish to understand the powers of HM Coroner and the police in relation to gagging orders, that is your prerogative. Lancashire Police has plainly stated it has been gagged until the inquest. The information is freely available.

 

[Vixen]

So, when you said "literally tens of hundreds", you didn't mean 'literally'?

I am pretty sure that the sheer number of police, divers, helicopter crews, detectives, ancillary staff, NCA back up, all working in shifts and overtime, easily comes to tens of hundreds over the period of 24 days. Literally. As I do not have an exact figure that is why I said 'tens of hundreds'.

 

[Darat]

If you do not wish to understand the powers of HM Coroner and the police in relation to gagging orders, that is your prerogative. Lancashire Police has plainly stated it has been gagged until the inquest. The information is freely available.

You do seem to forget what you claim, this was your claim and this is what I asked you to support: ...For now, he has likely been told to keep shtum so as not to prejudice the coroners courts, as has the press....

Your voluminous post did not address your claim but a different claim that I never asked you to support.

 

[Vixen]

You do seem to forget what you claim, this was your claim and this is what I asked you to support: ...For now, he has likely been told to keep shtum so as not to prejudice the coroners courts, as has the press....

Your voluminous post did not address your claim but a different claim that I never asked you to support.

That is my considered opinion. You said you disputed the Coroner had any authority to issue a gagging order.


It is information freely available to all, you have the same access to these resources as I do.

I am not sure why you would dispute the fact of the gagging order except to be wilfully obstreperous.

 

[Darat]

That is my considered opinion. You said you disputed the Coroner had any authority to issue a gagging order.


It is information freely available to all, you have the same access to these resources as I do.

I am not sure why you would dispute the fact of the gagging order except to be wilfully obstrepourous.

Because you have not produced one iota of evidence for any "gagging order" in this case.

(PS it's obstreperous)

 

[Vixen]

Because you have not produced one iota of evidence for any "gagging order" in this case.

(PS it's obstreperous)

As I am sure I explained, in some coroner's court cases the reporting of a gagging order is in itself gagged.

When police open an investigation they go to great pains to prevent infomation being published that may affect a future court hearing (this includes coroners).

This is why I said it was likely a request for Rothwell to keep schtum, because he is a possible key witness as to the appearance of the body when he spotted it.

It ipso facto won't be on google if it has been gagged so I struggle to understand why you are demanding evidence of it, if it exists.

However, one can come to an informed opinion based on what we know so far.

• A body found in a river or other waterway must have a post-mortem according to the Coroners Bill 2009 guidance.
• If homicide or similar crime is suspected (or there is an element of serious doubt) then a Home Office pathologist must be appointed for a second post-mortem.
• A Home Office pathologist has been appointed in the Nicola Bulley case.
• This may or may not be due to a suspicion of crime, or simply 'in the public interest', given the publicity the case has attracted.
• The inquest has been opened and adjourned for four months.
• There are several official reviews surrounding the case going on.
• Lancashire Police have made public they are under a gagging order.
• No witnesses have spoken to the press about the case since the body was recovered.
• The person who directed the police to the location has made two brief statements on FaceBook but has refused all newspaper interviews for now.
• Given the huge international interest in the case, Mr. Rothwell will have almost certainly been badgered for an interview by the press.
• The press has left him alone, as it has the other witnesses in the field as of the time of disappearance.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I apologise for my mistake about the 40 detectives thing.

But while I'm here, can I ask, if the police are under a gagging order the existence of which is under a gagging order, why have the police 'plainly stated' they have been gagged?

Instead of trying to unpick the logic of that, maybe you could just direct us to the account of what they said which you were referring to, and we can work it out for ourselves.

 

[CompusMentus]

You posited that Lancs. Police deployed "literally tens of hundreds" of police personnel searched for Nichola. I disputed that.

I very much doubt that there were, as you posit above, 2000+ police personnel looking for Ms Bulley

Then you claim I gave a specific number which I did not. See highlight above. As other posters with an elementary knowledge of simple arithmetic have pointed out, any multiple of "tens of hundreds" must mean at least 2000. The number I gave (2000+) was simply your bottom line estimate.

WRONG! My use of the phrase 'tens of hundreds' clearly indicates a figure of speech, since no specific number is claimed (unlike Compus' figure of 2,000).

No figure of speech, you made a wild estimate to flesh out the skin and bones of a failing argument about that weirdo Rothwell. You plucked that number out of the thin air that Nichola Bulley vanished into.

Compus

 

[Mojo]

The inquest is 26 June 2023. I daresay, after that, Mr. Rothwell will be speaking freely about what happened. For now, he has likely been told to keep shtum so as not to prejudice the coroners courts, as has the press.

Why? All he did was find the body.

ISTM if people want to freely go to a church hall for a spiritualist meeting that is of their own free will, surely?

Does it seem to you that if people invest in pyramid schemes they do so of their own free will?

How is that fraud any more than going to the local CoE Church?

The C of E doesn't tell people it can contact their dead relatives.

 

[Mojo]

So, when you said "literally tens of hundreds", you didn't mean 'literally'?

You can't expect someone educated by Middlesex County Council to know what "literally" means.

 

[Vixen]

I apologise for my mistake about the 40 detectives thing.

But while I'm here, can I ask, if the police are under a gagging order the existence of which is under a gagging order, why have the police 'plainly stated' they have been gagged?

Instead of trying to unpick the logic of that, maybe you could just direct us to the account of what they said which you were referring to, and we can work it out for ourselves.

The gagging order is standard protocol re opening an inquest. The second gagging comes when a second post-mortem is invoked because it automatically puts police on the alert that they may need to open a criminal investigation (usually homicide or unlawful killing). As you saw upthread in Detective Rebecca Smith's video describing her work, their MO in serious and organised crime is surveillance by stealth - 'softly, softly' - in other words, they are careful not to let the suspect/s (if any) suspect that they are a suspect. In the Bulley case, the police having been informed of the second pm will have triggered an investigation alert. The last thing they want to broadcast is whether they have a suspect or potential suspect or none at all at this stage. Whilst the police might be convinced it is a simple case of self-disappearance and self-harm, nonetheless, the coroner's court as judiciary have a duty of care to the crown acting for any potential victims of crime. Likewise, the Home Office Pathologist, as do all pathologists, have a duty of care of being 100% objective and impartial. So here we have three independent bodies, the police, the coroners and the pathologists. So if it is a crime scene investigation, the last thing you want is to advertise to suspects or future suspects, if any, that there is an official crime investigation now underway.

A simple example is a civil court NDA, where the parties agree a settlement, and not to litigate the same matter again; at the same time they agree not to mention that there has even been an NDA, the existence of which if known, tells a third party there has been a legal dispute between the parties.

You'll note that the Youtuber/TikToker, 'Curtis' of Kidderminster, who took the video of the body being recovered, was initially arrested on suspicion under the Malicious Communications Act (sentencing up to one year and/or a fine if in a Magistrates Court or two years and/or fine if at a Crown Court). He has since been charged with Perverting the Course of Justice, a serious criminal offence (average sentencing three to four years).

As well as court protocol of not giving interviews on what you will say in court ahead of the trial, Mr. Rothwell has likely been made aware of the Contempt of Court Act, together with the example of Mr. Curtis X, above.

Imagine that it does/has turn into a crime investigation, any witness going to the press or SM describing the appearance of the body, what clothes appeared to be missing or what wounds were apparent on the torso, will likely fall foul of the law as did 'Curtis'.

If you want to know what the Lancashire Police have said, you should be able to google it.

 

[Vixen]

Why? All he did was find the body.




Does it seem to you that if people invest in pyramid schemes they do so of their own free will?




The C of E doesn't tell people it can contact their dead relatives.

The difference is unregistered pyramid schemes are illegal. So before investing check with the Financial Conduct Authority, who keep a list of rogue and unregistered 'investment' companies.

The CoE does preach all kinds of woo, though doesn't it? No more believable than the Spiritualists. For example, the raising of Lazarus, who was hello, dead for at least four days.

 

[Vixen]

You posited that Lancs. Police deployed "literally tens of hundreds" of police personnel searched for Nichola. I disputed that.




Then you claim I gave a specific number which I did not. See highlight above. As other posters with an elementary knowledge of simple arithmetic have pointed out, any multiple of "tens of hundreds" must mean at least 2000. The number I gave (2000+) was simply your bottom line estimate.




No figure of speech, you made a wild estimate to flesh out the skin and bones of a failing argument about that weirdo Rothwell. You plucked that number out of the thin air that Nichola Bulley vanished into.

Compus

Not so. The number of search personnel involved wouldn't be 'dozens', or even 'hundreds'. It wouldn't be 'thousands' either, so the logical figure of speech to use is indeed, 'tens of hundred' and I believe this is a reasonable and correct estimate. It doesn't have to be 2,000+, it can be 1,700 and still be a good estimate as covered by my turn of phrase. Saying '2,000+' commits you to a figure that you have just made up, unless it is a verified fact that you have plucked from somewhere other than an orifice.

 

[Axxman300]

That woman is a common criminal. It doesn't follow that all psychics are. It like saying 'all builders are cowboys and out to rip you off, here's an article from the DAILY HORROR' to prove it'. That is sixth form debate. We have to be mature and tolerant enough to allow others freedom of thought and belief because that is what we would want for ourselves. Sooner that than a totalitarian state.

Calm down a notch.

You are asking us to give snake-oil hucksters the same respect as medical doctors. You are asking us to give dowsers the same gravitas as geologists and hydrologists.

Taking money from people while giving them fabricated information is fraud.

I need to point out that medical doctors in the US are required to carry malpractice insurance in part to cover misdiagnosis. This is because there is legal recourse for making a bad call, no matter what the tests implied. And there are always tests; lab tests, x-rays, MRIs, sonograms, biopsies. But in some cases all that information boils down to the skills of the doctors assessing the data. There are now checks and balances, but people still get misdiagnosed.

There is no system for psychics. I can rent a storefront, put up a sign, and start readings tomorrow should I choose to do so. There are no qualifications required. Vicars, or Priests must graduate seminary, which is a four year process for the major religions.

Just because people believe in this stuff doesn't make it okay.