McCain on Polygamy and Forced Marriages with Child Brides: No Comment?

[Kaylee]

Scoop? We're citing articles at Scoop now on a skeptic forum?

Anything wrong with Scoop? The article seemed factual and agreed with what I recall reading about the FLDS over the years, and also seeing on TV news.

As for the article itself, the instance cited notes that somebody wrote McCain about a situation in Utah. Oooh, he passed the buck? But of course, Utah is not his territory.

Yes indeed, McCain passed the buck. If you look at the letter's image you will see that it is in reference to Nicole Holm. Do a search on Nicole Holm and FDLS and only one family comes up and their residence was in AZ. That's right, McCain passed the buck.

And I found this effort hilarious:

Oooh, he takes campaign contributions from people who live in the same county? And how dare he get incensed about Iraq POW humiliation!

OK, I agree with you on that one. Mohave County consists of more cities than Colorado City. That was either a invalid point or a poorly written quote. Perhaps the reporter misquoted and meant to say Colorado City which I understand is to be entirely populated by the FLDS. It appears that they are the only landlord in town and that only people in good standing at the FLDS church can live in Colorado City.

Ditto for the Flora Jessop story. Flora herself lives in Phoenix, but her sister was in Utah.

I don't know who owns this site but according to it, the Jessop family, resided in Colorado City, AZ, and Ruby (the sister) went to school in Colorado City. The same web site says that after repeated efforts by Flora to find her sister after her forced marriage, the Utah family services eventually came through and located her. Keep in mind that Colorado City, AZ and Hildale, UT are essentially one city split by a state line. The place must be a bureaucratic nightmare.

Question: What has Barack Obama done about polygamy and force marriages with child brides?

I grew up in Illinois and to the best of my knowledge polygamy and forced marriages with child brides is not a problem in Illinois. My understanding is that McCain is in a position to help AZ citizens get help from the AZ AG and AZ state agencies, and that he can ask the FBI for help in dealing with forced marriages with child brides in AZ also. My understanding is that Obama, a senator from IL cannot help AZ citizens the same way. Is your understanding different?

 

[Kaylee]

I think McCain was advised not to comment on a ongoing legal case..standard procedure with politicians.

I think we are talking about two different things. I believe that you are referring to the current situation in TX and I was referring to Flora Jessop asking for help, a few years ago, for her 13 year old sister who had been forced into marriage.

Even if it would have been prudent for McCain to be careful about what he said for legal (vs. political) reasons he had options. He could have said that he would help her get in touch with someone at the FBI that could help her or that he was looking into it but was limited as to what he could say since the situation might turn into a legal case. Instead he said absolutely nothing.

 

[Kaylee]

What has Hillary Clinton done? What have you done? What have I done?

TAM

TAM, of all the 50 states in the USA, only Utah and Arizona have had this flagrant problem for years.

McCain has been a senator representing Arizona since 1987 and, yet, in all that time it appears that he has not commented on this problem or has provided any legislative, financial or political help to solve or at least reduce this problem.

While I think it is fair to ask all 3 presidential candidates what their position is on polygamy and forced child marriages, and also what they are prepared to do to help solve or at least reduce this problem – this has been going on in McCain’s back yard – not Clinton’s and not Obama’s.

The political climate in Utah and Arizona appears to be changing*, however it doesn’t look like McCain has had anything to do with that.

* Note:

• In my first post in this thread I mentioned a bill in AZ that has so far passed in the State Senate that will prevent adults who practice child bigamy from having full or split custody over children.

• In Utah a bill called the Child and Family protection law looks like it may pass this year. It will make it a 3rd degree felony for organizations to pressure families to abandon a minor. Some boys as young as 13 years old have been left to fend for themselves by the FLDS community. For non-Americans, its illegal in the US to hire anyone younger than 16 with some very rare exceptions. To read more about this phenomena just do a search on “lost boys fdls”

 

[Zygar]

TAM, of all the 50 states in the USA, only Utah and Arizona have had this flagrant problem for years.

That is patently false.

Polygamist sects exist in Utah, Nevada, Montana, Arizona, Wyoming, Idaho, California, Missouri, Texas (well, until recently), British Columbia, and Mexico. Texas is probably the newest place to make this list, but the rest of those locations have continuously housed one or more of these sects since the early 1900s or earlier. Please refer to Mormon fundamentalism for a fairly comprehensive list of these splinter groups.

 

[Brainster]

Anything wrong with Scoop? The article seemed factual and agreed with what I recall reading about the FLDS over the years, and also seeing on TV news.

I see them on a lot of conspiracy stuff as well; they are an aggregation site, so this is not a primary link.

Yes indeed, McCain passed the buck. If you look at the letter's image you will see that it is in reference to Nicole Holm. Do a search on Nicole Holm and FDLS and only one family comes up and their residence was in AZ.

.

Was that made clear in the original letter? We don't know, but McCain's letter looks very much like a form letter that gets sent out whenever it appears that the issue being discussed lies outside the senator's state.

I don't know who owns this site but according to it, the Jessop family, resided in Colorado City, AZ, and Ruby (the sister) went to school in Colorado City. The same web site says that after repeated efforts by Flora to find her sister after her forced marriage, the Utah family services eventually came through and located her. Keep in mind that Colorado City, AZ and Hildale, UT are essentially one city split by a state line. The place must be a bureaucratic nightmare.

I grew up in Illinois and to the best of my knowledge polygamy and forced marriages with child brides is not a problem in Illinois. My understanding is that McCain is in a position to help AZ citizens get help from the AZ AG and AZ state agencies, and that he can ask the FBI for help in dealing with forced marriages with child brides in AZ also. My understanding is that Obama, a senator from IL cannot help AZ citizens the same way. Is your understanding different?

Yes, in fact it is. Arizona has a state government, which is run by Janet Napolitano, who the last time I checked was a Democrat and unlikely to be swayed by John McCain. The Arizona Attorney General is Terry Goddard, who, gosh darn it, is another one of those Democrats. Perhaps you could help us elect more Republicans out here so that John McCain could pull some strings?

 

[T.A.M.]

ummm....my comment, as I think Brainster may have gotten, was sort of a friendly back hand at him for asking "what has Obama done"? I found that question to be so irrelevant that I figured I would simply add to his list, including what he and myself had done about the issue, as what I have done about it is as about as relevant as what Obama has done.

TAM

 

[Brainster]

ummm....my comment, as I think Brainster may have gotten, was sort of a friendly back hand at him for asking "what has Obama done"? I found that question to be so irrelevant that I figured I would simply add to his list, including what he and myself had done about the issue, as what I have done about it is as about as relevant as what Obama has done.

TAM

I got it, but didn't perceive it as a back hand at me. The fact is that some issues are and should be handled on the state level, and so John McCain's position should be the same as Hillary's or Obama's: It's not my bailiwick.

Let me add that I don't want to be heartless about the situation here. Polygamy is wrong and forced child marriages is particularly wrong. But it should be handled on the state level, not on the national level. I strongly suspect that Texas' US senators were not involved in the Texas roundup.

 

[T.A.M.]

my "back hand" at you was concerning your "Conservative" stance, and the jump to "Obama" bash, so to speak.

No harm, no foul, all is fair...etc....

TAM

 

[Kaylee]

dup

 

[Kaylee]

That is patently false.

Polygamist sects exist in Utah, Nevada, Montana, Arizona, Wyoming, Idaho, California, Missouri, Texas (well, until recently), British Columbia, and Mexico. Texas is probably the newest place to make this list, but the rest of those locations have continuously housed one or more of these sects since the early 1900s or earlier. Please refer to Mormon fundamentalism for a fairly comprehensive list of these splinter groups.

I checked out your link Zygar and it confirms that the FLDS is in UT, ZA and more recently TX. I intentionally left out TX in my response to TAM because they had recently moved there as late as 2004 [1], the FLDS had originally said that their purchase of the ranch was for investment purposes only, and, afaik, the women and children lived a secretive life and never left the ranch. As you implied in an earlier post, because we live in a free society the authorities can’t take action in anyone’s home until there is a complaint. Last week may have been the first legal opportunity that TX social services had to do anything about the problem at the ranch.

Your link mentioned other polygamous sects that have historical links to the Mormon Church. I admit that I was not aware of them. However, the link does not make it clear if they share the other problems found in the FLDS sect. Do these other sects

* Have children brides
* Prevent their children from getting an education, at least until the legally required minimum of 16 years of age?
* “Throw-away” their “extra” male children?
* Engage in activities that defraud the state?

in addition to having polygamous marriages?


The link did specifically say that the Kingston Clan (located in Utah) has child brides. As for the other sects, for each one, it either says if they don’t permit child brides (most of them) or it doesn’t say.

I do think its fair to say that the FLDS is distinctive from the other sects and have created severe problems not only within their own communities but also for the communities that live near them. I think this is evidenced by the fact that AZ and UT have started to create more legislation (mentioned in post) that deals with these problems. Additionally the state govt of AZ took over the school district in Colorado City in 2005 [2 & 3].

Would you agree with that assessment?

Sources:
[1]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629743 (May 4, 2005)

Residents of the rural West Texas town of Eldorado are concerned by the arrival of a polygamist sect known as the FLDS, or Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

<snip>

Last March, FLDS leaders arrived in Eldorado to purchase 2,000 acres just outside of town. When the FLDS men first came, they pretended to be businessmen and said they were building a hunting retreat for corporate clients. FLDS leaders have since admitted that they are building a new settlement for their religious sect.

<snip>

Nobody knows how many people are living there now; the oft-stated estimate of 200 is just a guess.

Eldorado locals were already distrustful of the group after its initial lie about its intentions in settling there. Many are disturbed by the group's secretiveness and disgusted by its practice of polygamy and sexual involvement with young teenage girls. There is also a concern that someday, the FLDS might try to get involved in Eldorado politics, running its own candidates for sheriff and mayor.

[2] http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/88285.php (August, 11, 2005)

State officials will move Friday to seize financial control of the Colorado City Unified School District on Arizona's northern border.
The move - unprecedented in state history - follows an investigation that Attorney General Terry Goddard said shows "very serious story of mismanagement of public money." That includes an administrative payroll padded with members of a church that controls the community, unnecessary expenses and misuse of district property.
"And the children who attend the school district, the schools in Colorado City, ultimately are the victims," he said.
But Goddard said he could not act until a law permitting a district to be placed in receivership took effect. And that will not occur until tomorrow.
The petition filed with the state Board of Education charges that school board members, administrators and employees "have routinely charged personal expenses to district-issued credit cards." But Goddard said that isn't the only problem.
He said there were more than 1,200 students in the district in 2000 before Warren Jeffs, leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, ordered followers in his polygamous sect to pull their children out of public schools.
Goddard said while enrollment dropped to fewer than 250, the number of administrators - mostly FLDS members - not only remained the same but the district in 2002 bought a $200,000 airplane.
Yet checks made out to teachers last school year bounced, forcing the state's Schools Risk Retention Trust - essentially an insurance fund for schools - to loan the district $1.4 million to cover payroll costs.
Goddard also said the district leased five buildings for classroom space from the United Effort Plan Trust, controlled by FLDS leaders, paying multi-year contracts up front. In 2002, the district abandoned three of the leases, forfeiting about $190,000 in prepaid rent.
Yet last year the district asked the state for a new elementary school to alleviate overcrowding.
And the buildings abandoned in the lease, Goddard said, now are being used by an FLDS-controlled private school. That, said Goddard, shows at least an indirect subsidy of church-run schools by taxpayers.

[3] http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695265724,00.html (March 29, 2008)

The state of Arizona took over the school district in 2005, after teachers had gone months without pay and allegations of financial mismanagement had surfaced. Police raided district offices and seized computers, records and files. The school was put into financial receivership and most of its staff replaced.

Since then, the district has been paying off debts and slowly pulling itself out of receivership.

 

[Kaylee]

I see them on a lot of conspiracy stuff as well; they are an aggregation site, so this is not a primary link.

I’d be happy to post the original article, but I didn’t see it. This information looks factual, fits in with what I have heard over the years and the other articles that I have been able to find and link to in this thread.

Was that made clear in the original letter? We don't know, but McCain's letter looks very much like a form letter that gets sent out whenever it appears that the issue being discussed lies outside the senator's state.

Now that’s a lame response.

Yes, in fact it is. Arizona has a state government, which is run by Janet Napolitano, who the last time I checked was a Democrat and unlikely to be swayed by John McCain. The Arizona Attorney General is Terry Goddard, who, gosh darn it, is another one of those Democrats. Perhaps you could help us elect more Republicans out here so that John McCain could pull some strings?

Another lame response. Democrats and Republicans cooperate all the time to get things done. And how did either of them prevent McCain from picking up the phone and calling the FBI for assistance? Terry Goddard was the AG in 2005 and apparently had no problem doing his job and taking over the Colorado City school district after allegations of serious financial gross mismanagement by the FLDS surfaced.

Goddard is on record of being supportive of the current proposed bill (HB 2009) that would prevent bigamist with spouses that are children from being able to have full or split custody of children. This bill was sponsored by a Democrat – Representative Luhan.

See: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20490/polygamous-sects-2

I did a search on Napolitano and she may also be part of the problem. But according to Dick Mahoney, an independent who ran for governor in AZ in 2002, and to Flora Jessop, an anti-polygamist activist, the Republican candidate would probably have been no better.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A00E0DD133AF930A25753C1A9649C8B63

One of them, Flora Jessop, 32, said she escaped from a plural family in Colorado City 16 years ago after repeated beatings and sexual abuse. Hearing her story and others, Mr. Mahoney agreed to bring the issue into the campaign. Ms. Jessop appears in both of his commercials, criticizing the other candidates [ed note: Napolitano [Dem] and Salmon [Rep] ].

In an interview, Ms. Jessop, who is one of 28 children of a man who had two wives, said she had also approached Ms. Napolitano and Mr. Salmon for help, and they were not receptive.

She was especially critical of Ms. Napolitano, saying, ''I've given her extensive information about Colorado City and Hildale for two years, and she's done nothing about it I'm aware of.''

Also, as far as I can tell, neither Napolitano or Salmon has come out in support of the current child bigamy bill, HB 2009.

 

[Kaylee]

ummm....my comment, as I think Brainster may have gotten, was sort of a friendly back hand at him for asking "what has Obama done"? I found that question to be so irrelevant that I figured I would simply add to his list, including what he and myself had done about the issue, as what I have done about it is as about as relevant as what Obama has done.

TAM

I think I've been thrown off by some of the strange responses and comments I've heard about this situation. But hey, I should have gotten it as well.

Mea culpa.

 

[Kaylee]

I got it, but didn't perceive it as a back hand at me. The fact is that some issues are and should be handled on the state level, and so John McCain's position should be the same as Hillary's or Obama's: It's not my bailiwick.

Let me add that I don't want to be heartless about the situation here. Polygamy is wrong and forced child marriages is particularly wrong. But it should be handled on the state level, not on the national level. I strongly suspect that Texas' US senators were not involved in the Texas roundup.

All politics is local.

Tip O'Neill and Pat Buchanan. Wow a Democrat and Republican agreed on something!

Seriously, McCain was asked for help, at least once, on a similar issue several years ago. He had the option of getting the FBI involved, a federal tool that exists for a reason.

 

[Cleon]

Your link mentioned other polygamous sects that have historical links to the Mormon Church. I admit that I was not aware of them. However, the link does not make it clear if they share the other problems found in the FLDS sect. Do these other sects

* Have children brides
* Prevent their children from getting an education, at least until the legally required minimum of 16 years of age?
* “Throw-away” their “extra” male children?
* Engage in activities that defraud the state?

in addition to having polygamous marriages?

It's a mixed bag. There are some sects, like the Kingstons, who make the FLDS look like Quakers.

But there are others, like the Apostolic United Brethren, which do not have arranged marriages, do not allow underage marriage, and regard child and spousal abuse as serious sins. (According to Wikipedia, they excommunicate offenders and encourage victims to contact the police.)

There are scads of small, isolated sects as well as independent fundamentalists who follow "the Principle," and they all tend to isolate themselves. At the end of the day, it's difficult to accurately gauge who does what, especially when it comes to matters like welfare fraud.

 

[Brainster]

I think I've been thrown off by some of the strange responses and comments I've heard about this situation. But hey, I should have gotten it as well.

Mea culpa.

Okay, my read of the OP was that you were trying to smear McCain on a current events issue; from what I can see of what you're saying now you're trying to get McCain involved in an issue you care about. That's why my response may have seemed a little off-key.

I have been saying that the issue is a state matter; the bill you pointed to is a state bill. I am happy to support the bill myself, and I will see if I can get the senator on the record as supporting it as well. There are apparently some federal issues as well; I note that the FBI did raid the community in 2006.

 

[Kaylee]

It's a mixed bag. There are some sects, like the Kingstons, who make the FLDS look like Quakers.

But there are others, like the Apostolic United Brethren, which do not have arranged marriages, do not allow underage marriage, and regard child and spousal abuse as serious sins. (According to Wikipedia, they excommunicate offenders and encourage victims to contact the police.)

There are scads of small, isolated sects as well as independent fundamentalists who follow "the Principle," and they all tend to isolate themselves. At the end of the day, it's difficult to accurately gauge who does what, especially when it comes to matters like welfare fraud.

Yes, I can imagine that it must be really difficult to know what the various groups, especially the ones considered "independents", are up to. Part of the reason we know how evil (trying to think of a more apt word, but I can't) the FDLS are is because they basically have taken over two cities (Colorado City and Hildale) and thus have put themselves in the spot light. It made committing more types of fraud easier for them to do (grossly mismanaging the school district funds for example), and they just went ahead and did it -- even though that type of fraud was very easy for people outside their community to observe.

Okay, my read of the OP was that you were trying to smear McCain on a current events issue; from what I can see of what you're saying now you're trying to get McCain involved in an issue you care about. That's why my response may have seemed a little off-key.

My goal is not to smear anyone. What I try to do with the candidates is look for ways to see what their real values are and what they actually do when they are not in the spot light. Sound bites spoken during televised debates and news conferences only go so far.

I have been saying that the issue is a state matter; the bill you pointed to is a state bill. I am happy to support the bill myself, and I will see if I can get the senator on the record as supporting it as well. There are apparently some federal issues as well; I note that the FBI did raid the community in 2006.

Well, we almost agree. I think its both a state and federal matter. I don't believe in taking freedom for granted. I think its a constantly moving line and requires vigilence to preserve it. So I'm not actually being totally altruistic when I'm concerned about the welfare of the FDLS women and children. When the rest of us protects their rights not to be oppressed and abused, we are actually strengthening our rights and freedoms at the same time.

If you can get a public comment from John McCain that would be great, perhaps you can let the rest of us know what happens.

I'm glad you support the bill also. It sounds like you live in AZ, do you?

 

[Brainster]

Well, we almost agree. I think its both a state and federal matter. I don't believe in taking freedom for granted. I think its a constantly moving line and requires vigilence to preserve it. So I'm not actually being totally altruistic when I'm concerned about the welfare of the FDLS women and children. When the rest of us protects their rights not to be oppressed and abused, we are actually strengthening our rights and freedoms at the same time.

If you can get a public comment from John McCain that would be great, perhaps you can let the rest of us know what happens.

I'm glad you support the bill also. It sounds like you live in AZ, do you?

Yep, I've lived in the Valley of the Sun for almost 24 years now. I have some contacts in the McCain campaign and I have participated in blogger conference calls with McCain for the last year. No guarantees of course; the senator is a strict federalist and may be reluctant to get involved in state issues. But it does seem like a very common sense bill.

 

[Zygar]

It's a mixed bag. There are some sects, like the Kingstons, who make the FLDS look like Quakers.

Actually, for downright evilness, check out Ervil LeBaron. He ordered the killing of pretty much anyone who tried to leave his group. His daughter is still on the FBI's most wanted list, and has been for over 20 years.

BTW, she's wanted for a killing spree that also occurred in Texas. I had completely forgotten about that, but it turns out that Texas is not new to the polygamy scene.

 

[Tailgater]

Texans did great.........after 4 years of "letting it happen".

'This group doesn't openly talk'
"You can only press someone so far without having a criminal investigation going on," the sheriff said. "This group doesn't openly talk and they do not openly answer questions."

Children "were shuffled around houses" as investigators searched the polygamist compound in Eldorado, Texas, authorities said Thursday.

Doran said he had an informant who was "instrumental in teaching me the group's ways." But he declined to say whether the informant, a former sect member, was in Texas, or Utah or Arizona.

Barry Caver, a Texas Ranger who sometimes went with Doran to the compound, said a general welfare check wouldn't have produced much. "They would allow us on the property to the extent that we could talk to the main three or four people" only, Caver said.

Texas Attorney General Gregg Abbott said that despite other states' investigations into Jeffs and FLDS, Texas authorities had to wait until they had evidence of wrongdoing in this state to act. He said authorities handled the case properly.

"You cannot go in and bust in someone's house if there's not probable cause to do so," Abbott said.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has written about polygamy, said even Jeffs' conviction was not enough to barge in on the sect in Eldorado.

"You cannot use stale evidence," Turley said. "They would need a contemporary statement or evidence at trial that an individual at the compound is practicing polygamy." What's next for the children in Eldorado?

"When you're dealing with a culture like this, they're taught from very early on that they don't answer questions to the point," Doran said. "All of that is certainly being sorted out right now."

It's just soooo easy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There may not be anything specific from Hilary on this sect. After all, not everyone has been aware of just how extensive the abuse had become. Warren Jeffs only became the leader of the group in 2002 and he has gone over the top with a lot of things.

Clinton does, however, have more going for her as far as being concerned about and working for children, women and against teen pregnancy.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=6246