McCain on Polygamy and Forced Marriages with Child Brides: No Comment?

[Kaylee]

As you all know the problem of polygamy (including forcing child brides into marriage) by members of the FLDS Church occasionally surfaces in the news. Recently this has surfaced in the news again as Texas has rescued over 400 children from a polygamy compound into children protective services.

See: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080407/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat

Given that the problem primarily occurs in Utah and Arizona, I was curious if McCain, who has served as a senator from Arizona since 1987, had ever had a comment about it or attempted to pass a bill or get funding to help solve this problem in his home state.

I found very little. It seems his policy is not to make a comment, not even when asked by Flora Jessup (an anti-polygamist activist) to help rescue her 13 year old sister from a forced marriage.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00396.htm (Date: May 26, 2006)

...while the FLDS, America's largest polygamy cult, is incorporated in Utah -- members live and vote on either side of the Utah-Arizona border. That means media darling John McCain's (R--AZ) stance on polygamy is also an issue [ Scoop: Reports Reconfirm Hatch Said He Condones Polygamy], particularly because of McCain's 2008 US presidential aspirations.

McCain twice ducked my requests for comment for articles on polygamy, first in 2000 for the front page of the Weekend Financial Times Seven brides for one brother: Plural marriage is rife in the western United States, and then for a piece that ran March 2005 both in Scoop and CounterPunch, where I noted:

"Arizona is even less responsive on the Babyland issue [unmarked children's graves in the FLDS canyonlands]. John McCain (R - AZ), who is incensed about Iraq POW humiliation, takes campaign contributions in part from Mohave County where the FLDS is headquartered on the Arizona side of the border. McCain failed to comment for my Financial Times October 2000 cover story on polygamy and his assistant press secretary, Crystal Benton, told me last year regarding the Babyland matter that his schedule was "too hectic" for him to make a statement, although she wouldn't want it to be reported that the Senator had "no comment".

Funny the night before Benton told me McCain's schedule was too hectic, he appeared on MSNBC's Hardball promoting his new book (he's a frequent guest). He's also found time to host Saturday Night Live."

Finding any other comment on polygamy from either of the two US senators from Arizona - both Republicans: John McCain and John Kyl - is an exhausting exercise.

Beswick [ed note: a child activist] also comments that neither McCain nor Kyl has helped Arizona anti-polygamy activists rescue women in their jurisdictions from the polygamy cult. He cites Flora Jessop pressing the Arizona Attorney General's office and Arizona's US Congressmen J.D. Hayworth and John Shadegg, as well as Senator McCain, to help free Jessop's 13-year old sister from the FLDS after the girl had been raped.

Jessop said she got no assistance.

<snip>

… there is no defense for the inaction of McCain, Kyl, J.D. Hayworth and other Arizona leaders regarding the polygamy issue, since there is only one side to the story:

Polygamy is a human rights issue -- it violates the UN Convention on the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) -- which 182 countries of the world have signed -- including the United States of America.

[Note: I added the bolding]

Off topic, but I will mention this anyway -- luckily for the children of Arizona, other politicians are not as reluctant to help them. A child bigamy bill has just passed the Arizona State Senate:

http://www.azcapitoltimes.com/story.cfm?ID=8373 (Date: March 27, 2008)

This bill prevents

a parent from obtaining custody if he or she practices child bigamy.

<snip>

Flora Jessop, who escaped polygamy, testified on behalf of his [ed note: Representative Lujan (the bill apparently originated in Arizona’s House of Representatives)] legislation. "This effort has a lot of bipartisan and public support. Now that the Senate committee has approved the bill, I am very hopeful that the legislation is moving forward this year," Lujan said in a statement. "The legislation will help women leave polygamous communities because they will be confident that their former husband will not be able to subject the children to further abuse."

 

[daredelvis]

I am so happy that someone has finally stepped up and done something about the systematic child rape and abuse that has been going on at the FLDS compounds for decades (not just the girls, but the excess boys in this community are also victims). There were many angles available for the authorities to do something about this (the institutionalized stealing from the state for one), but in a post Waco world they were afraid to act for fear of a repeat of that disaster (brought about entirely by the adult members of the Branch Davidians). Under The Banner Of Heaven is a good, but nauseating account of what is going on at the FLDS compounds and this was an issue that I would regularly contact McCain's office about when I lived in Arizona (to McCain's credit I would never bother with the worthless Kyl).

One thing I can say for the state of Texas if that they have done the tough, but right thing by addressing this issue. I lived in Arizona from 94 to 06 and what went on was an embarrassment. I would not single out McCain for standing by and watching what was going on and doing nothing, the entire state did.

Daredelvis

 

[Kaylee]

Yes, I think Texans have a lot to be proud of.

In regard to McCain, I agree that he does not bear the sole blame but he is definitely part of the problem. For example, when he was asked specifically to help rescue a 13 year old girl forced into a polygamous marriage, he didn't even comment. He had several options including putting public pressure on the state AG to do something or he could have asked the FBI to investigate. He could have also at least made a public comment or even at least responded to the woman who asked for help for her sister. He did nothing instead. This is all the worse because in the Hillsdale (Utah)/Colorado City (Arizona) municipality, polygamy and forced child marriage has been occurring out in the open for all to see for decades.

In Texas, the church has established the compound less than a few years ago. They had originally said, IIRC, that their purchase of the ranch was for investment purposes only and that they would not be moving congregants in. They did not live openly in the area but restricted the women and children to the compound.

It appears that the first time the Texas authorities got an opening to do something about this problem, they didn't waste anytime. Good for them.

ETA: I don't think the MSM should give McCain a free pass on this issue. I think they should be asking him for his position on this issue and they should also be asking him what he has done as a senator to deal with this flagrant illegal activity which by the way it is practiced in his home state includes child abuse. Also, as one of the articles linked to in the OP says, polygamy is not only recognized as an illegal activity by the USA, it is also considered a human rights issue by the UN.

And as you have noted, and is repeated here for truth:

* the abuse also extends to boys including "throwing away" many of them like excess garbage so as to ensure that the older men in the community can continue to have polygamous marriages. (To be fair, I don't recall how many, if any, are kicked out of their communities before the age of 18 however. Regardless, its a very shameful practice.)

* Its partially financed by institutionalized stealing from the state.

 

[Zygar]

I agree that more legislation needs to be created to attack these groups.

However, a primary reason for the group's move to Arizona was legislation which cracked down on their abuses in the state of Utah.

The FLDS and other similar clans have created compounds in Canada and Mexico, as well. This allows them to move around easily and commit their specific atrocities in places where they are most legal.

It also gives them the advantage of having sanctuaries outside the jurisdiction of any specific laws created to eliminate them.

Personally, pointing the finger at McCain, in this particular instance, is a little counterproductive. Anything Arizona did to push the group outside of AZ would only tend to further scatter them.

 

[Brainster]

Scoop? We're citing articles at Scoop now on a skeptic forum?

As for the article itself, the instance cited notes that somebody wrote McCain about a situation in Utah. Oooh, he passed the buck? But of course, Utah is not his territory. And I found this effort hilarious:

John McCain (R - AZ), who is incensed about Iraq POW humiliation, takes campaign contributions in part from Mohave County where the FLDS is headquartered on the Arizona side of the border.

Oooh, he takes campaign contributions from people who live in the same county? And how dare he get incensed about Iraq POW humiliation!

Ditto for the Flora Jessop story. Flora herself lives in Phoenix, but her sister was in Utah.

Question: What has Barack Obama done about polygamy and force marriages with child brides?

 

[dudalb]

I think McCain was advised not to comment on a ongoing legal case..standard procedure with politicians.

 

[T.A.M.]

What has Hillary Clinton done? What have you done? What have I done?

TAM

 

[daredelvis]

Personally, pointing the finger at McCain, in this particular instance, is a little counterproductive. Anything Arizona did to push the group outside of AZ would only tend to further scatter them.

Arizona should have enforced the laws on the book. They can't scatter if they are sitting in jail cells.

Daredelvis

 

[Zygar]

Arizona should have enforced the laws on the book. They can't scatter if they are sitting in jail cells.

Daredelvis

It's all about gathering evidence. That's the drawback of the sort of rights we Americans enjoy and appreciate.

 

[daredelvis]

It's all about gathering evidence. That's the drawback of the sort of rights we Americans enjoy and appreciate.

Thank you for your condensing lesson on rights. It is clear from your dismissive statement that you are unfamiliar of the shenanigans going on in near the Utah / Arizona border. There was plenty of evidence to lock up most of leaders of the FLDS using the Al Capone model. They were ripping off the State and Federal governments right and left.

I am very surprised that the operation in Texas has gone as smoothly as it has, and how little resistance was put up by the sect members. If on the other hand it had turned into a blood bath, how do you believe that would have gone over. Do you think the blame would rightly be placed on the abusers and the criminals, or do you think the fallout would. I think that fear of such a standoff was what prevented action. I am surprised and pleased that Texas took the step it did, and that there has been no loss of life.

Daredelvis

 

[dudalb]

What has Hillary Clinton done? What have you done? What have I done?

TAM

I love the way some people are trying to make a huge thing about McCain dodging a question on the issue.
You are not seeing Hilary or Obama not making statements about this case for the same reason: their legal advisor has told them not to comment on a ongoing criminal investigation would be a bad,bad,move,and comments on the topic need to be carefully framed.
And it's not like the candidates could make any difference anyway. the Federal penalaties for Polygamy are already pretty stiff.

 

[Zygar]

Thank you for your condensing lesson on rights. It is clear from your dismissive statement that you are unfamiliar of the shenanigans going on in near the Utah / Arizona border. There was plenty of evidence to lock up most of leaders of the FLDS using the Al Capone model. They were ripping off the State and Federal governments right and left.

I am very surprised that the operation in Texas has gone as smoothly as it has, and how little resistance was put up by the sect members. If on the other hand it had turned into a blood bath, how do you believe that would have gone over. Do you think the blame would rightly be placed on the abusers and the criminals, or do you think the fallout would. I think that fear of such a standoff was what prevented action. I am surprised and pleased that Texas took the step it did, and that there has been no loss of life.

Daredelvis

Yeah, I know nothing about it.

 

[Cleon]

Thank you for your condensing lesson on rights. It is clear from your dismissive statement that you are unfamiliar of the shenanigans going on in near the Utah / Arizona border.

I find the above deduction to be quite amusing.

There was plenty of evidence to lock up most of leaders of the FLDS using the Al Capone model. They were ripping off the State and Federal governments right and left.

Oh yeah? Prove it in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without cooperation from the local law enforcement agencies.
Without cooperation from any of the people involved.

There's plenty of evidence of wrongdoing...But not so much when it comes to legally admissible evidence.

I am very surprised that the operation in Texas has gone as smoothly as it has, and how little resistance was put up by the sect members.

The FLDS is not known for employing violence against the outside world, and neither Jeffs nor any of his predecessors preached violence. (Contrast that with David Koresh, who had his followers believing that the infidels were going to invade, and thus they had to be armed to "defend" themselves.)

 

[daredelvis]

I find the above deduction to be quite amusing.

Yes, now I see the Salt Lake City location. But, to take my initial post as a suggestion that the members of the FLDS are not due the rights of any citizen is insulting.

Oh yeah? Prove it in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without cooperation from the local law enforcement agencies.
Without cooperation from any of the people involved.

That was the goalpost that I suggested???

Enough to investigate and lock up members of said local law enforcement? There was enough fraud within the school system and local law enforcement agencies that with a little effort convictions could be won.

I never suggested, or meant to suggested that the authorities were in possession of the evidence necessary to "Prove it in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt." I suggested that they did not take the steps to acquire said evidence. Forgive me if I feel that this situation was not the priority it should have been for state and federal law enforcement agencies. Something about child rape and systematic child abandonment gets to me.

There's plenty of evidence of wrongdoing...But not so much when it comes to legally admissible evidence.

Maybe not enough in the child abuse cases, but there was plenty to start an investigation on the fraud and misuse of state monies. Look at how soon after the Texas authorities moved in they were able to conclude that ALL of the children were either abused, or in danger of being abused. I will be curious to see how those accusations hold up in court.

The FLDS is not known for employing violence against the outside world, and neither Jeffs nor any of his predecessors preached violence. (Contrast that with David Koresh, who had his followers believing that the infidels were going to invade, and thus they had to be armed to "defend" themselves.)

CNN would disagree with you.

Law enforcement officials had feared the possibility of a violent showdown in trying to capture Jeffs, who was believed to travel with heavily armed security guards.

But in the end, the only people with the polygamist leader when he was captured were his brother and one of his wives, Naomi Jeffs. They were released without charges.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/30/jeffs.arrest/index.html

Yes, not on the level of the followers of Koresh, but my point is that the Waco standoff might have contributed to the unwillingness for the authorities to move in and remove the children.

Daredelvis

 

[marksman]

Yes, not on the level of the followers of Koresh, but my point is that the Waco standoff might have contributed to the unwillingness for the authorities to move in and remove the children.

Which would equally explain why a Senator (any of the three currently running for President) might want to just let law enforcement do its job and not rush into something that might precipitate a Waco-style fiasco. Which is exactly why politicians so often refuse to comment about ongoing federal investigations.

 

[Cleon]

CNN would disagree with you.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/30/jeffs.arrest/index.html

Actually, CNN said nothing that contradicted me.

In fact, it was one of their correspondents who, when asked, pointed out that the FLDS doesn't have a history of violence towards outsiders. (This was during live video coverage, so I don't have a link for you.)

The police would be stupid not to have a contingency for every possibility, and the media's been playing up the possibility of a violent confrontation for obvious reasons, but there really wasn't much reason to believe there would be one.

As for Jeffs' personal guards, he's made so many enemies over the years that they were likely there to guard him against expelled enemies, exiled youth, other fundamentalist groups, or men whose wives he reassigned. If he'd been genuinely interested in a violent confrontation with the outside world, he would've built an army (a la Koresh), rather than train a few minions as souped-up rent-a-cops.

 

[daredelvis]

Which would equally explain why a Senator (any of the three currently running for President) might want to just let law enforcement do its job and not rush into something that might precipitate a Waco-style fiasco. Which is exactly why politicians so often refuse to comment about ongoing federal investigations.

Yes, all fine points. I do not hold McCain responsible for the actions of the FLDS, I only commented that this was an issue that I wold contact his office about, and that was not meant as some ringing criticism of him. For various reasons I do not want McCain to be our next president, but this is not one. Would I have liked to hear some action on his part about this issue some years ago, yes, but I would have like to seen any action on this issue that wold have helped to remove these children from this horrible situation.

All I have to say is bravo to the Texas law enforcement agencies that finally stepped in started to do something about this situation.

Daredelvis

 

[Kaylee]

I agree that more legislation needs to be created to attack these groups.

Great! We agree on something!

However, a primary reason for the group's move to Arizona was legislation which cracked down on their abuses in the state of Utah.

Interesting. I had thought that was the reason for their move to Texas but that their establishment in Colorado City, AZ started simultaneously with their establishment in Hildale, UT. A quick look at mapquest.com shows me that they are essentially one municipality split by a state border.

The FLDS and other similar clans have created compounds in Canada and Mexico, as well. This allows them to move around easily and commit their specific atrocities in places where they are most legal.

It also gives them the advantage of having sanctuaries outside the jurisdiction of any specific laws created to eliminate them.

I'm sure that is a big advantage and I'm willing to bet it's not a coincidence that they decided to live in Colorado City/Hildale to try to take advantage of any confusion that probably results from living in an area essentially governed by two states.

Personally, pointing the finger at McCain, in this particular instance,

Not this particular instance -- I think my post was misunderstood. McCain has been a senator representing AZ since 1987. I cannot find a comment attributed to him on this major problem which is unique to Utah and AZ. He has been asked several years ago to help rescue a 13 year old child married against her will and not only didn't he help, but he even refused to provide any comment. For a situation like this, IMHO, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. It appears that McCain is part of the problem.

is a little counterproductive. Anything Arizona did to push the group outside of AZ would only tend to further scatter them.

That sounds like a justification for not trying to help people caught up in a nightmare situation. And I just can't agree with that.

 

[daredelvis]

Actually, CNN said nothing that contradicted me.

In fact, it was one of their correspondents who, when asked, pointed out that the FLDS doesn't have a history of violence towards outsiders. (This was during live video coverage, so I don't have a link for you.)

The police would be stupid not to have a contingency for every possibility, and the media's been playing up the possibility of a violent confrontation for obvious reasons, but there really wasn't much reason to believe there would be one.

As for Jeffs' personal guards, he's made so many enemies over the years that they were likely there to guard him against expelled enemies, exiled youth, other fundamentalist groups, or men whose wives he reassigned. If he'd been genuinely interested in a violent confrontation with the outside world, he would've built an army (a la Koresh), rather than train a few minions as souped-up rent-a-cops.

Minions as "souped-up rent-a-cops" are still dangerous, either to law enforcement, to themselves, or to the other members of the sect, and I suspect that they played some role in the timid way the FLDS has been dealt with over the last three decades that the Jeffs have been running Colorado city and the FLDS. Of course an additional explanation might be the negative public response to the last time there was government intervention back in the 50's.

Daredelvis

 

[Zygar]

Interesting. I had thought that was the reason for their move to Texas but that their establishment in Colorado City, AZ started simultaneously with their establishment in Hildale, UT. A quick look at mapquest.com shows me that they are essentially one municipality split by a state border.

Utah has cracked down in waves. The location at Hildale/Colorado City is a major result of this and your below statement:

I'm sure that is a big advantage and I'm willing to bet it's not a coincidence that they decided to live in Colorado City/Hildale to try to take advantage of any confusion that probably results from living in an area essentially governed by two states.

Not this particular instance -- I think my post was misunderstood. McCain has been a senator representing AZ since 1987. I cannot find a comment attributed to him on this major problem which is unique to Utah and AZ. He has been asked several years ago to help rescue a 13 year old child married against her will and not only didn't he help, but he even refused to provide any comment. For a situation like this, IMHO, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. It appears that McCain is part of the problem.

My point is that the FLDS have a knack for living in a manner that is unprosecutable. Changing laws will not change this behavior. Instead, they will just open another location which allows them to manipulate the system in the way they wish.

That sounds like a justification for not trying to help people caught up in a nightmare situation. And I just can't agree with that.

Feel free to think that. I want something to be done, and I am glad that Texas has stepped up. But I believe you are minimizing the complexity of the solution.

Minions as "souped-up rent-a-cops" are still dangerous, either to law enforcement, to themselves, or to the other members of the sect, and I suspect that they played some role in the timid way the FLDS has been dealt with over the last three decades that the Jeffs have been running Colorado city and the FLDS. Of course an additional explanation might be the negative public response to the last time there was government intervention back in the 50's.

Daredelvis

Given that there is rarely any way to attack the FLDS that does not break the constitution, they haven't historically needed to resort to violence. They want people to leave them alone. Leaning towards externally directed violence doesn't tend to keep a group isolated for long.