Maybe we CAN disprove God...

To primitive man, we are supernatural creatures (the 'cargo cult' phenomenon).
It is said that, to every generation, the technology of the next generation is like magic.
"Like" magic, but not actually magic, as we soon find out.

Believers mean by "God" a supernatural being. If the God of the Bible turned out to be an alien then he would (for most believers) never have actually been a God after all. The word God would mean the same to them, but they may then doubt that any such thing ever existed.
 
The political implications of this are important. So, although we cannot reason with those who have left the path of reason, it is still necessary that we debunk the "You can't disprove God" myth.

I'm not going to argue it with you, but use of the word "proof" to me, is 2 + 2 = 4, black and white and what you've done doesn't come up to those standards of proof. Plus, it's the bit which I'm thinking is increasingly less important. I was very much in your way of thinking, but as time's gone on, I suspect it's less than a waste of time, apart from some kind of rallying call for atheists who need to feel that not only are there no gods, there cannot be any.

Actually, the "You can't disprove God" myth is widespread among skeptics and folks of a scientific mindset as well. Just take a look at some of the posts in the "Proof of strong atheism" thread. And we've seen Dawkins and Sagan, for example, stop at "unproven".

And Russell and Einstein - it's a very long list.

To primitive man, we are supernatural creatures (the 'cargo cult' phenomenon).
It is said that, to every generation, the technology of the next generation is like magic.

Nicely put. We may have to re-define "supernatural" one day.
 
No misunderstanding; I have no interest in what you're trying to say.

If you really need to debate something, I'll get my teenager on the case - he's about your level.
If you could actually debate any point I brought up to you, you would. Instead you're running away and slinging insults. It's obvious who's the mature one. Most of your posts and arguments are fallacious and incredibly ignorant.
 
Actually, the "You can't disprove God" myth is widespread among skeptics and folks of a scientific mindset as well. Just take a look at some of the posts in the "Proof of strong atheism" thread. And we've seen Dawkins and Sagan, for example, stop at "unproven".
Don't waste too much time on "The Atheist," he/she came into thread with a pile of fallacious nothing, and still has none.

Go back and read the list of reasons he attempted to give for it being undisprovable. (a textbook demonstration of weak appeals to antiquity, authority and consequences)
 
I agree with your second statement. I could not remember if you were the one trying to debunk god though? In any case, you and I agree on one thing, though we have different views of it. You said that we should not promote reasoning for things we can not observe. Exactly my point! Which is why I said that piggy should not try to fall into the trap of all thiests, by actually trying to come up with a logical argument that god can not exist.
The first step in the OP is to assign SOME consistent property to God. That way, we can discuss it in a rational, sensical manner. I wouldn't try to have a discussion or disproof a concept with no meaning, because that is indeed nonsense.

This goes both ways, if we can not observe god then religion should not exist, but if religion observes god on a spiritual level, there is no point in trying to put a reasonable argument about something that can not be proven or disproven to exist, because that puts skeptics on the same boat as believers, for believing that god can not exist without knowing.
There is no such thing as observing god "on a spiritual level." You either have observations or reasoning for God or you don't. And when you actually appy consistency, and put those observations and the reasoning to a test, they fall apart to nothing.

Basically putting all their chips into the observation pool which as history will tell us, is not always the best way to go.
Observations and reasoning are only overcome by tests and better observations and better reasoning. Not by nonsense.

I guess thats the nature of a skeptic, but you cant be a skeptic and argue that god does not exist without explaining why, and making sense.
And that's why we have this thread.
 
"Like" magic, but not actually magic, as we soon find out.


Well, "like" magic from one generation to the next, but "almost indistinguishable" from magic if we move along the generations a bit and "indistinguishable" if we keep moving.
An advanced alien race may be indistinguishable from supernatural beings to humans at the present time but, in future generations, humans may be those beings indistinguishable from supernatural beings to a race only as advanced as we are now.

Believers mean by "God" a supernatural being.


That doesn't mean that God could not actually be an alien so advanced as to be indistinguishable from a supernatural being from their present standpoint.

If the God of the Bible turned out to be an alien then he would (for most believers) never have actually been a God after all. The word God would mean the same to them, but they may then doubt that any such thing ever existed.


Well, if you define God out of existence then, of course, God doesn't exist.
However, if an advanced alien, indistinguishable from the "God of the Bible", could exist, then the "God of the Bible" could exist.
 
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I have yet to see how.
Reasoning has produced laws of nature like the first law of thermodynamics, and also standards of discussion like using terms that have meaning. Within those standards, God (as creator of the universe) or God (as a meaningless term) are either impossible or nonsensical and thus self-refuting.

The ability to observe, learn and make decisions based on those observations.
Where do you propose this intelligence exists? Somewhere where we conveniently cannot detect any part of it, and where any nonsensical concept (i.e. 1 + 1 equaling 3) can also be equally likely to exist?

Imagine a two dimensional plane of existence containing beings. These beings are only capable of perceiving in left, right, forward, and backward; or north, south, east and west if you prefer. The universe, from their perception, is limited to that plane of existence.
But this being is still bound by a consistent set of properties. The God that exists in an alternate plane where no rules apply is not. But moving on...

Now imagine a three dimensional being who is outside that plane, observing it from above. He is intelligent by our normal conception of what constitutes "intelligence".
Just to interrupt here, he would not be intelligent by our normal conception in that circumstance. The two-dimensional version of the brain would have to function very differently from the three-dimensional one.

He can interact with that plane and is not subject to the laws of that plane.
If there were a moment of interaction with our plane that in anyway showed a violation of natural law, then you might have something here. But there has never been to any of our knowledge...which is why the natural laws exist...and it is these laws that in turn form the context for reasoning by which God (as extra-dimensional creator) is impossible. The laws are mutually exclusive with him. You must throw out the laws and reasoning in order to posit this god, which makes it impossible to the full extent of the word.

His intelligence exists entirely outside that plane even though he is capable of observing it. His existence is entirely outside that plane even though he can interact with it.

The two dimensional beings cannot perceive this three dimensional being because, from their perception, he exists outside their universe. They have no concept of "above" in which things may exist. They cannot perceive the structure containing his intelligence because it also exists outside their universe. The three dimensional being is constrained by the laws of his three dimensional universe, but not by the laws of the two dimensional universe. For example, he can make objects move from one point to another without passing any point in between in that plane simply by lifting them up and putting them down somewhere else. To the occupants of the plane this is impossible by everything they know.
The occupants of this plane would have an entirely different frame of reasoning. By nature of your example, they would have no natural law which precludes those things from happening. Thus that God would not be impossible.

The equivalent in our plane would be if energy continually randomly showed up and then disappeared. We would have no first law of thermodynamics and thus this God would be quite possible.

That does not imply that there can be no other types.
To say there are no other possible types that we know of does imply that there are no other types, to the full extent of our knowledge. But I wouldn't claim that that means there are no other types possible. The important point is, when you refer to consciousness, you're referring to consciousness as we've observed it. But then you change the properties of it (no brain, no electrical patterns, no observable effects), which is where the problem shows up.

What you're assigning to God is not actually consciousness, but a concept that has been invented so that it can be assigned to God with no proof necessary. It moves us down the nonsense path.

Not at all. It simply implies a structure of intelligence we are not capable of perceiving.
The problem is that you're making drastic changes to the concept of intelligence and consciousness. This is not brain based, it is not based on electrical activity. You are not claiming any material or observable characteristics at all. Let alone emotion, or reasoning, or a limited memory, or use a body as consciousness as we understand it does. I don't feel that we can refer to it as intelligence if it does not originate, function, or share any concrete characteristics with intelligence and consciousness as we currently understand...we just can't use that word and we're into a nonsense idea.

But we haven't agreed to that at all.
If the only situation where this God can exist is one where 1 + 1 = 3 can also be said to exist, then they are equal in likelihood and rationality. I feel that the extra-dimensional idea does not fit this for reasons given above.
 
BillyJoe said:
Well, if you define God out of existence then, of course, God doesn't exist.
However, if an advanced alien, indistinguishable from the "God of the Bible", could exist, then the "God of the Bible" could exist.

And our souls would have to then exist. Or heaven.
 
Well, no. I said could.

I'm not sure if you understand my point.

The "God of the Bible" is not just a being that belabors demands and shows off magical skill. It's only through Him that you can get to heaven, through your soul. Thus, to accept his existance, you'd have to accept the existance of heaven or the soul. NOT just an alien presence.
 
The advanced alien could indeed have created his own Heaven, eternity and all.

He could have been inviting his creations to be good and go with him to heaven when they die. Or, he could have been having a little joke especially about the soul bit (I mean really!).

In any case, I was just following on from the post I quoted which used the example of the "God of the Bible". There is still the deistic god to contend with.
 
The advanced alien could indeed have created his own Heaven, eternity and all.

He could have been inviting his creations to be good and go with him to heaven when they die. Or, he could have been having a little joke especially about the soul bit (I mean really!).

He "could have been" making a little joke, but that would disprove the majority of religion, which is centered around the soul and the afterlife.

Making God an alien intelligence without existance of the human soul is a vastly different perspective than the idea of God the Creator of the Universe, in his omnipresent, omniscient, and... above all... omnibenevolent form. How can God be unquestionable in morality if he's "just another being" in the universe, powerful or no? He'd have to be The Creator (tm), which is a different concept than, "just another alien". This is a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be.

If you keep redefining God, then billions of people have been on their knees praying to a false God, to a God that didn't exist. And it would not be a God that is indistinguishable from the God in the bible, for reasons that I noted above. Without the soul, without omnibenevolence, without being responsible for the creation of the universe, then the God you are talking about is not indistinguishable. He's very distinguishable.

In any case, I was just following on from the post I quoted which used the example of the "God of the Bible". There is still the deistic god to contend with.

Then the majority of religions can be debunked. The majority of religious believers are not deists.

While you can keep moving the goalposts farther and farther back, sticking around the former location of the goalposts makes you look foolish. Saying, "Maybe the deistic definition of God may be true... therefore, we worship him the Christian God, which isn't deistic!" shows nothing.
 
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the word "proof" to me, is 2 + 2 = 4, black and white and what you've done doesn't come up to those standards of proof.

But you see, the entire point here is that it doesn't need to. Once the claim "God is real" is shown to have no possible truth value, we're done.

And it has no possible truth value, because a God which does not interact with the world is both a Humpty Dumpty definition and and a definition which leads to meaningless, empty, or nonsensical claims, and a God which does interact with the world inevitably leads to contradiction of known fact or becomes redundant with purely material explanations.

The claim "God is real", upon examination, is empty or meaningless.
 
Well, "like" magic from one generation to the next, but "almost indistinguishable" from magic if we move along the generations a bit and "indistinguishable" if we keep moving.
An advanced alien race may be indistinguishable from supernatural beings to humans at the present time but, in future generations, humans may be those beings indistinguishable from supernatural beings to a race only as advanced as we are now.
That's true but I don't see what your point is. "Indistinguishable from supernatural" is not the same thing as supernatural, right (supernatural = beyond natural, i.e. beyond all naturalistic, scientific explanation, now and forever)? And God is supernatural (not merely apparently supernatural) by definition. What is there to argue about here?

Unless you are saying that the idea of the supernatural is just a mistaken idea. That nothing is "really" supernatural, there is just ever advancing levels of technological development. We encounter technology that is so far advanced from ours that we cannot imagine any natural explanations and we wrongly call such things supernatural. But actually they have natural explanations that we just don't yet understand.

If you can argue successfully that this is true (that there can be no truly supernatural phenomena once we understand the world fully, scientifically speaking) you have then disproven God because God is defined as being supernatural.

Well, if you define God out of existence then, of course, God doesn't exist.
See post #240. I'm trying to discover the actual definition of God that is in use, not arbitrarily invent one.

However, if an advanced alien, indistinguishable from the "God of the Bible", could exist, then the "God of the Bible" could exist.
Of course. But this would also debunk the so-called "God of the Bible" as not being a God at all. Just a being who was mistaken for a God.
 
I just want to make a quick hypothetical, to attempt to point out some of the illogic here:

Let's just say that there are two men sitting. One is a theist, the other an atheist. The theist is a Christian, devout, and goes to church. The other is an atheist, who... like all atheists... does not believe in God. The theist attempts to convince the atheist to go to church and worship in the same being he does. The atheist says, "Naw, I'm cool, thanks." The theist then attempts to prove the Church's version of God to the atheist.

He says, "Let us say God is an apple." He then pulls an apple out of his sack. "This apple exists. Therefore, God exists. Therefore, you should go to church with me and worship the Christian God."

Does this exchange make much sense? It makes no sense whatsoever. But what if we made it make more sense:

"Let us say God is an alien being with powerful tendencies, and a "home" he likes to call Heaven, and the soul is just a joke he played on us."

'Okay.'

"Therefore, let us go to church and then worship an omnipresent omnibenevolent being that will take our souls to heaven."

It doesn't work. It's just as logical as the former example. You take a hypothetical, redefine it to the point where it becomes at least somewhat plausible an idea (though with no evidence to support it), and then propose to go and worship a different form from the hypothetical.

Christianity, Islam, Catholocism -- from what I understand, they don't (at least, the majority don't) worship the Deist version of God. The worship a very specific version. Christianity and Catholicism are very set on prophets, and supernatural abilities given to the prophets, a specific testament given to them by prophets from God, different sources that tell them what is right and wrong, and what is God's will.

To accept any one version, is to accept another version as untrue in all things, and false in some things, if not false in most things. To find common ground would be good, but common ground in all three cases isn't a deistic god. Nor is it a god that is an alien intelligence, with no soul in existance throughout the world. To make it indistinguishable from the biblical God, the other version of God has to be God. He would *have* to be the creator, to be creator of the afterlife, and to have jurisdiction over our souls. Otherwise, He is not the biblical God.

I hope I'm explaining my thoughts clearly here. I don't want anything to get lost in translation.
 
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If you could actually debate any point I brought up to you, you would. Instead you're running away and slinging insults. It's obvious who's the mature one. Most of your posts and arguments are fallacious and incredibly ignorant.

And I just love ad hominem, so get ready!

Child: the reason I won't debate you is that you have nothing to debate. When I'm discussing something with Piggy, as long as he gets the message, I'm happy. When the kindergarten kiddy starts to wee his pants because he's seen a logical fallacy, I simply tell him to go home to mommy like a good child.

Now run along.
 
But you see, the entire point here is that it doesn't need to. Once the claim "God is real" is shown to have no possible truth value, we're done.

Sure, but as you have said, and I've belaboured, it's meaningless as an argument outside of people who are already atheists. The level of physical proof is nil. Just because science says no virgin birth can happen, it has no value for you to insist that it cannot have happened, unless the other party is already at the stage of thinking that physical laws cannot be broken. It's the summae theologica for atheists.

Let me just ask then: What use is it?
 
That reminds me of my athletics coach who, having trained me to the superhuman effort of running a marathon in 3 hours, re-set the limit at 21/2 hours. :mad:

Breaking three hours is pretty flash work mate! Christ, I'd break a leg before I broke three hours.

I'm surprised they caught you.
 
He "could have been" making a little joke, but that would disprove the majority of religion, which is centered around the soul and the afterlife.


I thought we were supposed to be disproving God in this thread. I didn't know it was "God of the Bible, Soul, and Afterlife".
What if my definition of God is "The being who created the universe". My original question asked if this God has been disproven by what has been said in this thread. I'm sorry I was tricked into even offering an aside about the God of the Bible.

Making God an alien intelligence without existance of the human soul is a vastly different perspective than the idea of God the Creator of the Universe, in his omnipresent, omniscient, and... above all... omnibenevolent form. How can God be unquestionable in morality if he's "just another being" in the universe, powerful or no? He'd have to be The Creator (tm), which is a different concept than, "just another alien". This is a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be..


But how does the God = The Being Who Created the Universe compare to the Advanced Alien? If you cannot disprove the Advanced Alien, then you cannot disprove the God = The Being Who Created the Universe. They could be one and the same being.

If you keep redefining God, then billions of people have been on their knees praying to a false God, to a God that didn't exist. And it would not be a God that is indistinguishable from the God in the bible, for reasons that I noted above. Without the soul, without omnibenevolence, without being responsible for the creation of the universe, then the God you are talking about is not indistinguishable. He's very distinguishable.


Okay, I think I'll just concede that point.
The God, as depicted in the bible, is probably a delusion rather than an alien.

Then the majority of religions can be debunked. The majority of religious believers are not deists.


Again, I thought we were supposed to be disproving God, not specifically the God of the Bible. If you cannot disprove the deist god have you really disproved god? That was the question I asked in my original post. I don't really want to be wasting my time trying to defend the God of the Bible.

While you can keep moving the goalposts farther and farther back, sticking around the former location of the goalposts makes you look foolish. Saying, "Maybe the deistic definition of God may be true... therefore, we worship him the Christian God, which isn't deistic!" shows nothing.


The second point is not one that I was making as I hope is now clear.
As for shifting the goalposts, since "God" in the title of the thread was unspecified, I took that to include the deistic god. Unless you can disprove the deistic god you haven't disproven God.
So now I'm back to the original question: Can the deistic god be disproven? (Actually, my original post included the possibility that god, if he wanted to, could intervene in the universe he created.)
 
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