Materialists......

So, the card trick experience reinforced her need to give full attention to the deatils of her finances.

That sums the trick to getting the trick... pay attention to detail. I don't remember how many tries it took me when I first ran into it, but here's one of the commented answers that spooks me:

Right ! I have had enough, i own and run my own business - a newagents and at the minute all of my customers are talking about it - one of them thinks he has sussed it out after spending 28 hours trying to master the technique!

It did NOT take me 28 hours to suss out... :rolleyes:

shouldn't this technique be out in the real world making millions and millions of dollars ?????

Things like it are. How do Geller, Browne, et al. make money, anyway? :D
 
I didn't think justgeoff would be fooled; he has me on ignore. I just wanted to illustrate to fellow skeptics how ready people are to believe in mysticism...even smart people--some of the answers seem "intelligent" don't they? But it has nothing to do with the truth. It made me laugh--tell me it's not a complete digression (please). If it is, I'll concede--

Materialism is simple. It's correct. But people have a hard time with it just like the people responding to this little test.
No, I don't think it is a complete digression. As I said to hammegk this is just a not-so-serious version of things like PEAR, Global Consciousness Project, autoganzfeld etc etc ...

People say this "research" is not taken seriously because they challenge scientific preconceptions. But the fact is that they are not taken seriously because they are as much nonsense as the site you linked.

But we always have to put up with the "narrow-minded" skeptic label if we say so.
 
An important piece of it was the misdirection in the instructions. "Say the name of your card aloud." "Remember your card." When my roomate tried it the second time, she was being oh so careful to follow the instructions. Then there are the various extras thrown in to confuse, such as the six eyeballs. You are going to look at the eyeballs. And that stupid "quantum" counter thingy.

It's easy to assume a section in a long tedious document is n/a when you are trying to get the damned thing done and over, especially when there is ambiguous wording.

The fact is we do a lot of (n/a)ing in life because we don't have time to stop and go over every detail again. Thinking is full of shortcuts. The Devil slips right on through with our assumptions. Schiaparelli saw lines on the surface Mars. With the power of suggestion, other astronomers saw them too, and ones who didn't assumed it was their poor eyesight.

It's good when opportunities come round that question our simple, quick to apply mental shortcuts.

Misdirection is a political technique as well.
 
Now if someone could just explain it to Articulett ... :)

I realize now it was a non-sequitar...I was really just trying to show how the more eloquent answers reminded me of Geoff--some sound very intelligent. And I gave a bad example above, because "ellie" reminds me more of Hammy actually--completely unfathomable. And dare I make the claim that she had to know she was lying. (By the way, Robin, I am a "she"--I only have "cyber balls")

But some of the answers were convincing...if one was inclined to be convinced--but they were still wrong. For some reason I find the detailed and eloquent explanation with all out conviction amusing in light of the simple truth. It seems justgeoffish to me...I can't help it. I see some "interesting Ian" type responses too. I am curious how justgeoff would explain the answer to those people and if he'd see any similarity between his own views and theirs...

Like this one:

From: Matthew H.
Dear Enlightened Sir, For 20 straight attempts (and still going) your test has proven successful against my weak mind. I attempted all conceivable combinations of thought pattern maneuvers to outwit the system and still have not. I enacted preconceived combinations, completely random combinations, and even blindfolded tests, all were correctly predicted. I find it very unlikely that this is some psychological game, and as well that you have a link to my electro-chemical wave impulses in my brain. The idea of the computer (one sitting in front of me) taking part in the phenomenon is ludicrous. The fact that no large program was downloaded to track minute finger movements (through the mouse) eliminates pretty much all possibilities that I can find realistic. The one thought that seems plausible (although insanely so) is that we establish an emotional (using Orson Scott Card terminology:philotic connection), almost quantum link to your program, allowing it to communicate with us without ourselves knowing, thus "predicting", but in actuality knowing our card of choice. Of course, the incorrect answers probably come from us lying to ourselves in disbelievement. It comes to mind though that you are playing a game with us, perhaps of insight. It is yet another connection I see to the elimination of the subject-object relationship, and establishment of the oneness of the world. A bit metaphysical it would seem, for a software program on the web, but what better way to convince people? I believe that everyone would benefit if the test was left unexplained, for it is from the question and not the answer that we gain true insight.
 
I pulled my roomate in to see the card trick. When she saw the row of eyeballs, she digressed on how last night she had a dream that contained rows of eyeballs in cubes on a wall.
So, could it be there was some significance to what I had to show her?
She was fooled by the trick, but only for about five minutes. The fouth time she noticed what was afoot.
The lesson. Pay attention to all the details. Earlier today she was bemoaning that she had signed some kind of retirement plan but had gone through it to quickly and missed that it wasn't quite what she had thought. I pointed out how the document was structured to misdirect her from certain sections.
So, the card trick experience reinforced her need to give full attention to the deatils of her finances.
Synchronicity?
She could interpret it that way, but remember. I called her in to see the trick, because I already saw it as a way to remind her to be careful about misdirections in sales and business.

Yes. And that is why admire James Randi. He helped me see how easily I could be fooled, and I am grateful for the knowledge and eager to "reveal the man behind the curtain" so to speak. The wrong people are on the pedastals it seems. I curse Deepak Chopra for spreading ignorance dressed up like mystical truths.

I think the lesson is that even smart people can fall prey to errors in logic, but the smartest people learn from their mistakes (and the mistakes of others).
 
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I wonder if "non-existence" is really a meaningful concept anyway. For example if I strike a match, let it burn to the end then grind up the carbon and throw it to the wind, does the match cease to exist? Or did it just change? Did the match not exist prior to it's manufacture?

You are talking about a branch of philosophy called essentialism. What is that makes X essentially X? Is it something to do with its origins? etc.....

When I am talking about non-existence I am not talking about the non-existence of a match, burned or otherwise. I am talking about the complete abscence of existence.

It may be that non-existence is just not possible, only change.

Maybe.
 
OK, here is the experiment. Get a bunch of competent philosopher professors into a room and divide them into four groups. The first group produce a precise, minimally sufficient definition of Idealism. The second group does the same for Materialism. The third for Neutral Monism.

Then the experimenter substitutes random symbols for terms like "mind", "matter", "physical", "mental", "neutral entity" with a secret code at the top to identify the original monism. The descriptions are then given to the last group and they have to classify the position as "Materialism", "Idealism" or "Neutral Monism". Then the test is scored to see how many identified the original monism.

My prediction is that it would be very close to random.

My prediction is that they would get it 100% correct.
 
I pulled my roomate in to see the card trick. When she saw the row of eyeballs, she digressed on how last night she had a dream that contained rows of eyeballs in cubes on a wall.
So, could it be there was some significance to what I had to show her?
She was fooled by the trick, but only for about five minutes. The fouth time she noticed what was afoot.
The lesson. Pay attention to all the details.

Also, do not allow your line of thinking to be directed by others at the expense of your own line. That's why it is like Derren Brown. Derren Brown is very good at leading gullible people into thinking in certain ways that he wants them to think.
 
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I think he sees it. I see his point too - I don't think Geoff is stupid, but in the past he has taken members of the forum to task for not being open minded about subjects that they consider to be woo.

Some members about some subjects. That is not a blanket accusation about all members and all subjects. To be fair, I have also gone to great lengths to explain exactly why I think they are being less than open minded about those subjects.

This site is an extreme case - but it illustrates that sometimes it is simply a waste of time being open minded - it was obvious in this case that we should start looking for the trick straight away.

There is no clash between being open-minded and looking for a trick at the same time.

But what if it looked more impressive - more academic? Suppose the experimenter had some verifiable qualifications and it appeared on the website of a major university. Suppose that it was set not alway to get the right answer - to get only say 30% correct. A small but statistically significant improvement on random?

In that case, unless you had seen the trick before, even an intelligent person might at least consider that there was some real effect to be seen.

I don't see why. Unless people are intimidated by other peoples qualifications, as I suppose some of them might be.

Cases in point are the PEAR project, Global Consciousness Project, Autoganzfeld and staring tests. They tend to look somewhat like real science.

They are paraphyschology. This is science, or at least it is trying to be science. They are attempting to be as objective as possible. The problem with the PEAR project is that its results are either negative or borderline.

In these cases an "open-minded" skeptic will spend precious time that they will never get back finding out that the "closed-minded" skeptic who assumed it was nonsense in the first place was right all along.

But the open-minded skeptic was still pursuing a policy which is more likely to yield results in the future. What you are talking about applies just as much to science as anything else. There are many examples throughout the history of science of several people stumbling across some sort of new effect and just "not noticing" it because it was so contrary to what they were expecting. Either that or they dismiss the result as a mistake instead of trying to find out what was actually happening. Finally, somebody comes along who is open-minded enough to think "that's interesting, and totally unexpected" and pursue it instead of rejecting it.

On the other hand, some scientists, such as Blondlot, convinced themselves they saw something which wasn't actually there and ended up pursuing something which didn't exist.

Sometimes assuming materialism is true just saves time.

Sometimes assuming the Bible is true saves time. :(
 
I have often recommended Robert Anton Wilson's "Prometheus Rising", and I think it is worth pointing out one of the reasons why. Wilson wants to destroy peoples dogmatic box-thinking. At the end of each chapter there are a load of exercises. With reference to what has been discussed over the last couple of pages, have a look at the exercises at the end of Chapter 1 (what the thinker thinks, the prover proves) :

1. Visualise a quarter vividly, and imagine vividly that you are going to find the quarter on the street. Then, look for the quarter every time you take a walk, meanwhile continuing to visualise it. See how long it takes you to find the quarter.

2. Explain the above experiment by the hypothesis of "selective attention" - that is, believe there are lots of lost quarters everywhere and you were bound to find one by continually looking. Go looking for a second quarter.

3. Explain the experiment by the alternative "mystical" hypothesis that "mind controls everything." Believe that you made the quarter manifest in this Universe. Go looking for a second quarter.

4. Compare the time it takes to find the second quarter using the first hypothesis (attention) with the time it takes using the second hypothesis (mind over matter).

5. With your own ingenuity, invent similar experiments and each time compare the two theories.

6. Avoid coming to any strong conclusions prematurely. At the end of a month, re-read this chapter, think it over again, and still postpone coming to any dogmatic conclusion. Believe it is possible that you do not know everything yet, and that you might have something still to learn.

etc......

Wilson is not trying to brainwash anybody. He is trying to debrainwash them, whatever they believe.

http://www.newfalcon.com/excerpts/prometheus_rising_e.htm

William James, father of American psychology, tells of meeting an old lady who told him the Earth rested on the back of a huge turtle.

"But, my dear lady," Professor James asked, as politely as possible, "what holds up the turtle?"

"Ah," she said, "that's easy. He is standing on the back of another turtle."

"Oh, I see," said Professor James, still being polite. "But would you be so good as to tell me what holds up the second turtle?"

"It's no use, Professor," said the old lady, realizing he was trying to lead her into a logical trap. "It's turtles-turtles-turtles, all the way!"

Don't be too quick to laugh at this little old lady. All human minds work on fundamentally similar principles. Her universe was a little bit weirder than most but it was built up on the same mental principles as every other universe people have believed in.

As Dr. Leonard Orr has noted, the human mind behaves as if it were divided into two parts, the Thinker and the Prover.

The Thinker can think about virtually anything. History shows that it can think the earth is suspended on the backs of infinite turtles or that the Earth is hollow, or that the Earth is floating in space; comparative religion and philosophy show that the Thinker can regard itself as mortal, as immortal, as both mortal and immortal (the reincarnation model) or even as non-existent (Buddhism). It can think itself into living in a Christian universe, a Marxist universe, a scientific-relativistic universe, or a Nazi universe---among many possibilities.

As psychiatrists and psychologists have often observed (much to the chagrin of their medical colleagues), the Thinker can think itself sick, and can even think itself well again.

The Prover is a much simpler mechanism. It operates on one law only: Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves.

To cite a notorious example which unleashed incredible horrors earlier in this century, if the Thinker thinks that all Jews are rich, the Prover will prove it. It will find evidence that the poorest Jew in the most run-down ghetto has hidden money somewhere. Similarly, Feminists are able to believe that all men, including the starving wretches who live and sleep on the streets, are exploiting all women, including the Queen of England.

If the Thinker thinks that the sun moves around the earth, the Prover will obligingly organize all perceptions to fit that thought; if the Thinker changes its mind and decides the earth moves around the sun, the Prover will reorganize the evidence.

If the Thinker thinks "holy water" from Lourdes will cure its lumbago, the Prover will skillfully orchestrate all signals from the glands, muscles, organs etc. until they have organized themselves into good health again.

Of course, it is fairly easy to see that other people's minds operate this way; it is comparatively much harder to become aware that one's own mind is working that way also.

It is believed, for instance, that some men are more "objective" than others. (One seldom hears this about women...) Businessmen are allegedly hard-nosed, pragmatic and "objective" in this sense. A brief examination of the dingbat politics most businessmen endorse will quickly correct that impression.

Scientists, however, are still believed to be objective. No study of the lives of the great scientists will confirm this. They were as passionate, and hence as prejudiced, as any assembly of great painters or great musicians. It was not just the Church but also the established astronomers of the time who condemned Galileo. The majority of physicists rejected Einstein's Special Relativity Theory in 1905. Einstein himself would not accept anything in quantum theory after 1920 no matter how many experiments supported it. Edison's commitment to direct current (DC) electrical generators led him to insist alternating current (AC) generators were unsafe for years after their safety had been proven to everyone else.

Science achieves, or approximates, objectivity not because the individual scientist is immune from the psychological laws that govern the rest of us, but because scientific method---a group creation---eventually overrides individual prejudices, in the long run.

To take a notorious example from the 1960s, there was a point when three research groups had "proven" that LSD causes chromosome damage, while three other groups had "proven" that LSD has no effect on the chromosomes. In each case, the Prover had proved what the Thinker thought. Right now, there are, in physics, 7 experiments that confirm a very controversial concept known as Bell's Theorem, and two experiments that refute Bell's Theorem. In the area of extra-sensory perception, the results are uniform after more than a century: everybody who sets out to prove that ESP exists succeeds, and everybody who sets out to prove that ESP does not exist also succeeds.

"Truth" or relative truth emerges only after decades of experiments by thousands of groups all over the world.

In the long run, we are hopefully approximating closer and closer to "objective Truth" over the centuries.

In the short run, Orr's law always holds:

Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove.

And if the Thinker thinks passionately enough, the Prover will prove the thought so conclusively that you will never talk a person out of such a belief, even if it is something as remarkable as the notion that there is a gaseous vertebrate of astronomical heft ("GOD") who will spend all eternity torturing people who do not believe in his religion.

Wise words indeed. :)
 
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Geoff said:
Which, according to stimpy, includes other peoples minds.

He was very good at putting cart before horse.
The definition of physical does not require that everyone be able to observe the thing. That would be silly. Also, it says "in principle." Will you assert that I won't be able to directly observe your experiences even with the technology of the 25th Century?

~~ Paul
 
1. Visualise a quarter vividly, and imagine vividly that you are going to find the quarter on the street. Then, look for the quarter every time you take a walk, meanwhile continuing to visualise it. See how long it takes you to find the quarter.

2. Explain the above experiment by the hypothesis of "selective attention" - that is, believe there are lots of lost quarters everywhere and you were bound to find one by continually looking. Go looking for a second quarter.

3. Explain the experiment by the alternative "mystical" hypothesis that "mind controls everything." Believe that you made the quarter manifest in this Universe. Go looking for a second quarter.

4. Compare the time it takes to find the second quarter using the first hypothesis (attention) with the time it takes using the second hypothesis (mind over matter).
Now do this double blind, just in case there was any confirmation bias involved.

~~ Paul
 
Will you assert that I won't be able to directly observe your experiences even with the technology of the 25th Century?

~~ Paul

Yep. You can never directly observe my experiences. No technology will ever allow this. Even a telepathy machine would not be sufficient. You cannot take some parts of my subjective experience, seperate them from the other parts, and implant them into someone-else's experience because they would appear different to the someone-else because they existed in a different context. To experience what it is like to be Geoff, you have to be Geoff.
 

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