Marxist Madness --> Nelson Mandela

[Jedi Knight]

Not to mention ignorant, since, apparently, Mandela never bothered to talk to George the Younger's Secretary of State.

--J.D.

...Or his national security advisor. This is a good point, Doctor X. The commie Mandela is only color-blind to those that are communists. That is why he didn't see the two African Americans seated in the highest levels of the US government when he ran his mouth.

JK

 

[Doctor X]

Decorum dictates we leave the man to his dotage.

--J.D.

 

[Advocate]

Decorum dictates we leave the man to his dotage.

--J.D.

But good taste dictates we leave him to it outside the public arena.

 

[crackmonkey]

The consensus seems to be that Mandela is notable for being oppressed by an unjust government, and not allowing the overthrowing of the SA government to turn into a bloodbath. That is worthy of praise, but hardly unique. Has the man done anything at all to be respected as a statesman?

 

[Jedi Knight]

The consensus seems to be that Mandela is notable for being oppressed by an unjust government, and not allowing the overthrowing of the SA government to turn into a bloodbath. That is worthy of praise, but hardly unique. Has the man done anything at all to be respected as a statesman?

The leftist media gave that commie access because he said bad things about President Bush. South Africa is in a downward political spiral to which a pending civil war will only fix.

JK

 

[Advocate]

South Africa is in a downward political spiral to which a pending civil war will only fix.

JK

I don't know if anything, civil war or not, will fix South Africa's ills any time soon. They are in a pretty sad state. Its not just the AIDS epidemic, though that is certainly not helping any.

 

[Jon_in_london]

I don't know if anything, civil war or not, will fix South Africa's ills any time soon. They are in a pretty sad state. Its not just the AIDS epidemic, though that is certainly not helping any.

The current AIDS crisis isnt mandelas fault. It is the fault of the aparthied gov for not doing anything about it when the problem was in its infancy (although black south africans under aparthied had better health care than their 'brothers' anywere else in southern africa). Look at Mbeki to see a real AIDS loon.

The consensus seems to be that Mandela is notable for being oppressed by an unjust government, and not allowing the overthrowing of the SA government to turn into a bloodbath. That is worthy of praise, but hardly unique. Has the man done anything at all to be respected as a statesman?

Perhaps you have to experience South Africa to understand what a great man he is. I dont belive anyone else could have stopped the tidal wave of violence and hatred that threatened SA in 1994. Without him SA would have degenrated into into another DRC. Doesnt saving the lives and livelihood of 40m people count for anything?

Ah well, maybe there isnt any point arguing with people ignorant of the true situation but maybe you should give more weight to the view of those who lived through that very special time when people in that country were fortunate enough to have a *true leader*, a man of vision and integrity looking over them.

 

[Advocate]

The current AIDS crisis isnt mandelas fault. It is the fault of the aparthied gov for not doing anything about it when the problem was in its infancy (although black south africans under aparthied had better health care than their 'brothers' anywere else in southern africa). Look at Mbeki to see a real AIDS loon.

I am not blaming Mandela for it, although he didn't do all that much to stop it and Mbeki isn't either. I am not sure how much difference they could have made in any case. However, I do think Mandela is at least partially responsible for South Africa's economic woes.

 

[headscratcher4]

I am not blaming Mandela for it, although he didn't do all that much to stop it and Mbeki isn't either. I am not sure how much difference they could have made in any case. However, I do think Mandela is at least partially responsible for South Africa's economic woes.

Amature:

Mandela's statements were foolish in that "marxist so-long as you're part of the thirdworld it doesn't matter how many you kill or torture I'm with you" sort of way...

however, serious question, why is Mandela more responsible for the bad S. African economy than Aparthide? It was a system that brutally repressed a free economy on the basis of race, economically distributed the wealth to a very small seqment of the population based on race, killed initative and enterprise, based on race, tortured and repressed, based on race. It falls, and somehow after years of neglect, etc. the majority that takes over is supposed to pick up the pieces and make things fly....

My point is that S. Africa's governemnt and economic policies may be a mess, but it is the result of another kind of mess, one created by the racist and ecomically repressive repressive regime that preceeded it. I don't have a solution, it just seems to me that Mandela's rule isn't the beginning of S. Africa's problems...it extends into history and is colored by the poltical and (let us remember the economic repression) that existed in S. A. prior to the fall of aparthied.

My point is, S. Africa was no capitalist paradise polluted by marxism. Marxism may have driven Mandala and his followers, but they were fighting real repression and a regime that, based on race, excluded large segments of the population from most economic, political, healthcare and educational opportunites. No, as bad a government Mandela might have brought, it was, it seems to me, almost inevitable given where he started.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Jon_in_london]

When Madela was President, what SA needed wasnt a finacial genius, what we needed was a leader. SA wouldnt have had any economy whatsoever, never mind an imperfect one (hows YOUR econmony doing BTW?)

Mandela was that leader, he held the country together. For that he is worth infinitlety more than Abraham Lincoln, IMO.

 

[Mike B.]

Jon in London,

I hardly think the US and South African economy are on the same plane...

2001 Unemployment - 5% USA
2001 Unemployment - 37% South Africa

% of population living under poverty line:

12.7% USA
50% South Africa

(Source: CIA factbook -2002)

Look even with the problems of the economy in this country, the economy is still growing and unemployment is much lower than other First World countries such as Germany, etc...

As regards to Lincoln. I would say hard to compare. I will say that Mandala had almost the entire world disinvesting itself from South Africa which helped his cause very much.

I do admire the fact that Mandela did end apartied in a way that was not a bloodbath. However, his idea that Bush and Blair are not supporting the UN as much as he wants because Kofi Anan is black is absurd.

 

[Advocate]

Mandela's statements were foolish in that "marxist so-long as you're part of the thirdworld it doesn't matter how many you kill or torture I'm with you" sort of way...

And in that "America is the root of all evil" sort of way.

however, serious question, why is Mandela more responsible for the bad S. African economy than Aparthide? It was a system that brutally repressed a free economy on the basis of race, economically distributed the wealth to a very small seqment of the population based on race, killed initative and enterprise, based on race, tortured and repressed, based on race. It falls, and somehow after years of neglect, etc. the majority that takes over is supposed to pick up the pieces and make things fly....
...

I was certainly not praising the previous government. However, replacing a repressive government does not necessarily make you great - otherwise Boris Yeltsin should be a candidate for sainthood. (Don't get me started on HIS flaws either.) Nor would I have expected Mandela to improve the economy immediately, considering he had other things to worry about. What I would have expected was for him to prevent it from getting as much worse as it has.

My point is that S. Africa's governemnt and economic policies may be a mess, but it is the result of another kind of mess, one created by the racist and ecomically repressive repressive regime that preceeded it. I don't have a solution, it just seems to me that Mandela's rule isn't the beginning of S. Africa's problems...it extends into history and is colored by the poltical and (let us remember the economic repression) that existed in S. A. prior to the fall of aparthied.

I never said Mandela's rule was the beginning of the problems. I only said that it contributed to them. The beginning of South Africa's problems goes back long before independence. Back to a time before Mandela was even alive.

My point is, S. Africa was no capitalist paradise polluted by marxism. Marxism may have driven Mandala and his followers, but they were fighting real repression and a regime that, based on race, excluded large segments of the population from most economic, political, healthcare and educational opportunites. No, as bad a government Mandela might have brought, it was, it seems to me, almost inevitable given where he started.

Just some thoughts...

I don't see this as inevitable at all. Every nation has had oppression of one sort or another in its history. Not every nation has fallen victim to Marxism and mismanagement. Since you seem to be misunderstanding my views concerning Mandela, here they are in a nutshell:

Was Mandela 100% responsible for South Africa's woes? NO.
Did he contribute to them? Certainly.
Was Mandela necessary for South Africa to rid itself of apartheid? Probably. And if not necessary, certainly he made the transition less violent than it would otherwise have been.
Were Mandela's policies as president necessary? Definitely not.