Marxism can elimimate global poverty

AA, that's really not a fair question, since, to date, nothing has eliminated world poverty.

yes i agree it's a rather high bar....but something of a carry over from the thread on prostitution..."eliminate poverty" was offered in a rather dogmatic fashion as the solution to prostitution, i was wondering how dann thought this could be achieved. But i agree the list you provide is a good starting point for the discussion.
 
You don't have a clue what the quotation says, do you?!

How are you actually going to eliminate poverty? Your quote is rather vague on any details.....it's all very well saying things like....

They must break the power of those who have the interest in profits, and win the freedom to organize their work so that it finally is about their needs and a good life for them.
http://www.gegenstandpunkt.com/english/communist-vision.html

but how do you propose this will actually work?

Are you unable to express the argument in your own words?
 
If you have data to support that Soviet education was better than US education, or that US education is significantly inferior to other Western countries, feel free to lay it on the table.
I don't! I have no idea what it was like or how it would compare. They were supposed to have a better grasp of the sciences, I think. I think they weighted something called the 'polytechnics'. It should have been fairly easy to test in Germany back in 1990 (no language barrier), but I don't know if it was ever done. The people in charge of education were busy replacing examples in textbooks, I think. I studied German at the university back then, and an East German university level grammar book appeared in a new version in which mere textual illustrations of principles in grammar were replaced, e.g. 'The class went on a field trip to Moscow' was replaced with 'The class went on a field trip to Paris', and quotations from Friedrich Engels to illustrate (entirely unpolitically) the use of language were replaced with quotations from e.g. Thomas Mann.

20 years ago, when I was working at the Hotel and Restaurant School of Copenhagen, I visited a similar school in Prague. Their teaching aids seemed a little outdated in comparison with the Danish school, but apart from that I wasn't able to compare anything.
(Well, also, the Danish currency could be exchanged so favourably with the Czech that it made some of our students behave rather, how do I put it?, irresponsibly.)
 
China is subsidizing their current economic growth by keeping the yuan artificially low and by exploiting, cheating, and repressing their rural population.
This tells us nothing. How were the rural population not exploited, cheated and repressed before the current economic growth?

To the extent that China uses political prisoners as slaves I would agree. Beyond that I have no idea.

They're using the worst of communism to prop up their capitalist ventures.
There is some small measure of truth to this but in fact it is quite the reverse. Capitalism is driving their economy. Period. Full stop. Now, lacking a vibrant democracy the chance for abuse is high. No question.

Their economy is essentially still managed in a weird free market way. Population dissatisfaction is rising and there is increasing opposition to government programs. Most think that China will have to implement social reforms to keep the government stable; it's not clear what impact this will have on the economic system.
Sounds right to me. This has been the goal of trading with China since Sowcroft. Capitalism would lead to reform and Democracy.

I guess I am confused by your use of self sustaining.
I don't think I could have been anymore clear. The ability to generate more than necessary for basic needs without bankrupting the system.

Economies change all the time, they are not sustained.
This is just a claim and without foundation. Changing does not axiomatically obviate a sustained economy.

You seem to be referring more to government economic policies.
?

I think you are trying to separate that which can't be separated. I can't make a distinction between capitalism and governments intervention or lack of it.

Because our government has very laissez faire economic policies the economy is largely self correcting. But I would say our current economy is not sustainable. We are going to run out of gasoline for example. We are currently subsidizing our lifestyle with millions of years of stored solar energy.
This is, IMO, propaganda. Yes, energy is necessary for economic stability. What is missing in your view is human ingenuity. Given a profit motive humans are quite capable of solving such problems.

I don't think that the government will collapse when the gas runs out, but there will be major changes. For example, housing prices will change when the cost of driving goes up.
Again, change does not obviate economic stability. Inflation is a known and expected variable in free market economics. Things have always changed and will always change. That fact does not mean that our economy is likely to fail.
 
How are you actually going to eliminate poverty?
I never said I was. It has become very evident that you don't understand the quotation.
Your quote is rather vague on any details....
You mean unlike the detailed description of your ideal brothels in the other thread?
...it's all very well saying things like....
They must break the power of those who have the interest in profits, and win the freedom to organize their work so that it finally is about their needs and a good life for them.
http://www.gegenstandpunkt.com/english/communist-vision.html

but how do you propose this will actually work?
Well, unlike the imaginary brothels it would depend on the people who wanted to "... win the freedom to organize their work ..."/i], wouldn't it?
Are you unable to express the argument in your own words?
Which argument? The one from the quotation that you don't understand? I may be able to help if you tell me exactly where the problem for you is.
 
China is subsidizing their current economic growth by keeping the yuan artificially low and by exploiting, cheating, and repressing their rural population. They're using the worst of communism to prop up their capitalist ventures. Their economy is essentially still managed in a weird free market way. Population dissatisfaction is rising and there is increasing opposition to government programs. Most think that China will have to implement social reforms to keep the government stable; it's not clear what impact this will have on the economic system.

I guess I am confused by your use of self sustaining. Economies change all the time, they are not sustained. You seem to be referring more to government economic policies. Because our government has very laissez faire economic policies the economy is largely self correcting. But I would say our current economy is not sustainable. We are going to run out of gasoline for example. We are currently subsidizing our lifestyle with millions of years of stored solar energy.

I don't think that the government will collapse when the gas runs out, but there will be major changes. For example, housing prices will change when the cost of driving goes up.

China watched the fall of the Soviet Union and Eastern European countries and learned to make changes to thier system that will slow political change in thier country but eventually it will change. There is a yearning in every person for freedom and self determination and blending communism with capitalism but still jailing and persecuting people for self expression, jailing, killing and persecuting people for thier religious beliefs will not work. eventually communism will not be able to withstand the cry for freedom the question is will it be violent or a gradual change that is non violent.
 
Last edited:
I never said I was. It has become very evident that you don't understand the quotation.

Go on then explain it. You appear to be unable to express your "argument" in your own words. This is the 4th time when challenged to actually explain yourself how to "eliminate poverty" you've referred to the same rambling mess. That would suggest you fail to understand its gist yourself.

You mean unlike the detailed description of your ideal brothels in the other thread?

i'm sorry i thought you had something to say.

I ask if prostitution should be legal. You respond by saying that this itself a stupid question - because instead we should eliminate poverty. You refuse to enter into any debate about the relative benefits of legalising prostitution because, yes, we should elimate poverty instead. If you have no suggestions as how to eliminate poverty then you are offering nothing.

One may as well oppose either the legalisation or current illegal status of drugs by saying that instead we should eliminate all people's desire to take drugs. All well and good - but unless you can show how you can do it people are going to think you're talking out of your idealistic backside.
 
Last edited:
Soviet Education.

I couldn't find any figures online. First of all, the PISA program only goes back to 1999, but it basically indicates that the former Soviet republics are doing better than the US, with the exception of Russia, which is doing worse.

UNICEF has issued a report concerning the "alarming decline" in school quality since the collapse of communism. So it's not unreasonable to move up from the current quality (roughly equal to the US) to a higher quality.

Full literacy was one of the few real achievements of communism, but recent years have seen the emergence of school-leavers who cannot read or write. The problem is most acute in the former Soviet Union, but even in Central Europe, whose pupils still outscore England in maths and science, a growing proportion of children fail to acquire basic educational skills.

This was from 1998, before the PISA program, and I doubt if things have gotten any better.

Education was one of the great successes of European communism (possibly the greatest success). Literacy in the Soviet Union went from under one-third to close to 100%. The US literacy rate is somewhere between 85% and 100% depending on who you talk to and how they measure, so it's hard to make a clear comparison based on that.

Finally, when I was in school it was generally accepted that the Soviets had better math and science education than the US, just as it is now generally accepted that the Japanese have better math and science education than the US. I did find some references to print reports on Soviet education quality.

I am not sure if anyone ever generated hard data ala the PISA program or SAT scores.
 
Education was one of the great successes of European communism (possibly the greatest success). Literacy in the Soviet Union went from under one-third to close to 100%. The US literacy rate is somewhere between 85% and 100% depending on who you talk to and how they measure, so it's hard to make a clear comparison based on that.
Add to that the sizable influx of immigrants to the United States and the comparison becomes less clear.
 
let's have a look at the ideological knots Marxists tie themselves in in order to avoid actually offering alternative, positive contributions....

Question. If I correctly understand what I’ve read of yours so far, you reject any constructive criticism of society because it seeks to improve a system that needs to be abolished. In your articles, you offer evidence that society’s evils are due to the system and that the state, Keynesianism, the World Bank, the UN, etc. cannot remedy them.

Since you obviously confine yourself to criticizing capitalism, you must frequently be confronted in your public discussions with comments like: “Can’t you do more than just criticize!” or “What’s your alternative, then!” My question is aimed at this kind of objection:

Answer We don’t do what you think is missing because attempting to dispel doubts about the feasibility of an alternative to capitalist exploitation by painting the beauties or opportunities of a liberated society in bright colors is not just pointless but downright nonsensical. People who would measure the “power of persuasion of the most accurate critique of capitalism” according to whether we are able to offer something in the way of an alternative that pleases and seems realistic to them, these people reject our critique — in fact in a way that is just as fundamental as it is disingenuous, whether they are aware of it or not.

snip

Those of our contemporaries who demand a proof that the “inherently humane idea of communism” is also “possible” have apparently understood the critique of the capitalist order as something like the fairy tale of the land of milk and honey; one may well wonder whether roast pigeons fly into the idle glutton’s mouth there without a finger being lifted. Like clever children questioning the fairy tale, they question the critique, asking whether the abolition of exploitation is really consistent with “reality.” Under this only seemingly naive examination, the lovely idea of a better society is bound to fail since the “reality” against which it has to prove itself is none other than the capitalist reality we criticize, a reality so familiar and obvious to the examiners.

snippy workers of the world unite snip

In other words: those who inquire about the attractiveness of what communists have to “offer” confuse the critique of capitalism with election slogans of an alternative elite who promise to run things better for their valued citizens than those currently holding power. They misunderstand themselves as courted voters allowed to choose in a department store for politico-economic systems which one they’d like to place an order for — from others who then are responsible for the delivery. They think as subjects of ruling authorities who decide for them, and they have resolved to remain just that: democratic underlings, who have no choice but between two sorts of rule — but this choice is theirs for sure. What we can tell these people is simply the following: nobody will offer them this free choice. Either they fight for the freedom to organize the politico-economic conditions of their lives in a sensible way, or they will continue to have no say at all in the matter.
http://www.gegenstandpunkt.com/english/communist-vision.html

lol :D
 
In England, it is not in fact necessary to stand in line for thirty minutes to buy a steak.

Do Americans not queue? How else do you determine the order in which people get served? Does it involve firearms?

It's just a joke. And it's mostly a joke about Russians - the Englishman is there as a placeholder between the American and the Russian, you can substitute other nationalities as you like. Yes, of course we que. And no, I don't have studies regarding relative time spent queing between Americans and Englishmen.

I can't access your .pdf file for some reason, so can you tell me whether the statistics relate to a typical working week, or whether they take into account the fact that Germans have longer vacations?

It's averaged over the entire year, so it includes vacation time. Commuting time is counted as work time for this survey.
 
Here's a question:

Does anyone here really think that minor amounts of "socialism" (I.E., government collects, pools, distributes, spends, etc.) falls under the same heading of "communism"?

Because I've seen some hints of that in this thread.
 
I couldn't find any figures online. First of all, the PISA program only goes back to 1999, but it basically indicates that the former Soviet republics are doing better than the US, with the exception of Russia, which is doing worse.

UNICEF has issued a report concerning the "alarming decline" in school quality since the collapse of communism. So it's not unreasonable to move up from the current quality (roughly equal to the US) to a higher quality.

Got a link to the PISA stuff? And did PISA indicate that these former communist countries have been doing better than the US since 1998, or that they're now better than the US? Because if it's the latter, then it's quite easily possible that there was an "alarming decline" between the fall of communism and 1998 (when the UNICEF study you link was release), followed by a strong recovery to above-communist levels between 1998 and the present.

Finally, when I was in school it was generally accepted that the Soviets had better math and science education than the US,

Lots of things that were generally accepted about the Soviets turned out not to resemble reality. It was an empire of lies. There's the old joke about their two state-run papers whose names translated as Truth and News: there's no truth in News, and no news in Truth.
 
In England, it is not in fact necessary to stand in line for thirty minutes to buy a steak.

Do Americans not queue? How else do you determine the order in which people get served? Does it involve firearms?

To be fair (i know this is the politics forum but I feel like being a rebel ;)- just as most Uk stereotypes about Americans come from Hollywood movies, most US stereotypes about the UK seem to come from US servicemen's experience of eth UK during WWII (and just after) when due to rationing (and the British "sense of fair play") queuing was practically the national sport.
 
most US stereotypes about the UK seem to come from US servicemen's experience of eth UK during WWII
No. My stereotype of the UK comes from Monty Python, the Disney cartoon "Robin Hood," and postcards of Stonehenge.
 
Here's a question:

Does anyone here really think that minor amounts of "socialism" (I.E., government collects, pools, distributes, spends, etc.) falls under the same heading of "communism"?

Because I've seen some hints of that in this thread.
No, absolutely not. When I came to this forum I was decidedly anti-socialist. I no longer take such a view. I think I would very much enjoy living in a number of nations with far more socialism than America. Denmark being at the top of the list. Please don't tell Claus though because he always ribs me about it. I also don't mind a degree of socialism in America but I would personally prefer a libertarian system with some socialism. Public schools and libraries and perhaps even health care. Odd mix I know. I think Darat calls it pragmatic libertarianism. Shanek would call it BS. ;)

BTW, George Orwell is a hero of many American conservatives because of his broadside of communism in his book, Animal Farm. I don't think many of them know that Orwell was a socialist.
 
No. My stereotype of the UK comes from Monty Python, the Disney cartoon "Robin Hood," and postcards of Stonehenge.
You left out Mary Poppins. I can't imagine a better representation of an English bloke than Bert.
 
Here's a question:

Does anyone here really think that minor amounts of "socialism" (I.E., government collects, pools, distributes, spends, etc.) falls under the same heading of "communism"?

Because I've seen some hints of that in this thread.
Perhaps a little more than anyone here really thinks Bush = Hitler. Not much more though. RandFan's response is similar to my own views.
 

Back
Top Bottom