Marxism can elimimate global poverty

Why bother. According to you, he could just have his Mexican do it, since he is too busy. I wasn't aware most Americans had maids either. What a life. Just for the record, we do laundry, cook, and help the kids with homework too. I hope my boss doesn't find out I only work 8 hour shifts. Oh, I'm self-employed. I don't have one. Good thing, I would hate to lose my car. Exaggerated for effect.:(

Hmm, you seem to be agreeing with me. I'm not really sure what you're getting at, sorry.
 
No, I wanted you to back up the claim that American leisure time is of lower quality than European leisure time. But skip that for now: why don't you back up some of your original claims? You made all sorts of claims regarding Communist countries vis-a-vis capitalist ones (America in particular) without providing any evidence whatsoever.

Which claims? That communist countries had full employment? Almost no homelessness? Universal basic health care? These are not exactly controversial.
 
There is no poverty in North Korea. All people are fed well and thank glorious leader for their daily ration. Only capitalist pigs need 1,000 calories a day.

=)
 
Which claims? That communist countries had full employment? Almost no homelessness? Universal basic health care? These are not exactly controversial.

How about the claim that they educated their citizens better than we did? That's one I directly challenged you on, and all you could do is point to the fact that we have some bad schools. Let's start with that.

After that, you can go on to show that the people who would be homeless but are kept in prisons or insane asylums were any better off that way. Then you can show that full employment in low-paying, unproductive jobs with no possibility of advancement (because command economies don't reward talent and hard work adequately) is better than spending some time unemployed between jobs with much higher pay and better future prospects. And you can finish off by showing that the quality of "universal basic health care" that communist countries provided was really worth the cost: low-tech, poorly equiped and undermanned hospitals, little medical advances, and no way for the middle class to access anything better.
 
Agreed, but... how much is a lot?

I would add that if you actually spoke to the professors they would likely have plausible answers to your objections. You and I both would probably still disagree with their point of view, but I suspect their arguments are not insane or incomplete on their face... and plausible enough to convince a few people.


The professional association of Marxist professors claim a membership of at least 16000 world wide. If just 10% of those people taught thier beliefs in class that would have a huge impact on the molding of students into future marxists. look at the thousands of students and graduates that show up for the G8 summit conferences to protest. the main arguments they voice are the same arguments that are espoused by marxism. Where did they learn these things? mainly at thier universities and colleges. If a system is proven to not work then why teach it as being able to work? That is just turning the marxist illusion into a generational problem. Now teaching it from the stand point that it is a failed theory would be diffrent since you are teaching people to learn from past mistakes.

It is also interesting to note that some of the NEA (national education association) leadership were marxists who have had a large impact on the direction of the public schools in the US. In 1936, the National Education Association stated their position, from which they have never wavered; "We stand for socializing the individual." The N.E.A. in its ‘Policy For American Education’ stated; "The major problem of education in our times arises out of the fact that we live in a period of fundamental social change. In the new democracy [we were a Republic] education must share in the responsibility of giving purpose and direction to social change. The major function of the school is the social orientation of the individual … Education must operate according to a well-formulated social policy."

John Dewey, (NEA president) – After visiting the Soviet Union he had this to say "Our major concern that the school should provide a purified environment for the child … this means stacking the cards in favor of the particular systems of value we [humanists] possess. We must move to make certain every Progressive School will use whatever power it may possess in opposing and checking the forces of social conservatism."

Dewey - "I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers that correctly perceive their role as proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being...The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and new — the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent with the promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of 'love thy neighbor' will finally be achieved." — excerpt from an article by John Dunphy titled "A Religion for a New Age," appearing in the January/February 1983 issue of The Humanist Magazine.


Norman Thomas, Socialist and member of the Civil Liberties Union, boldly told the world, "The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without ever knowing how it happened."
 
Sorry folks, I'm late to the thread. If I'm going over old ground then ignore me.

There is of course the argument that there never has been true communism. To that I say, assuming that is true then there likely never will be. It's difficult to get everyone to cooperate without a strong central government and strong central governments don't like to fade away.

As to those ostensible communist nations, dismal failures. Oh sure, they had some success but nothing can overcome the hell unleashed on the world known as Communism.

I hope we have learned our lesson. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

No, America isn't perfect but if the citizens get tired of the status quo we can make a change. Dem's took over congress in 2006 and American's will get a new president in 2008.
 
How about the claim that they educated their citizens better than we did? That's one I directly challenged you on, and all you could do is point to the fact that we have some bad schools. Let's start with that.

Well, I dug up some numbers and I was going to show you but...

After that, you can go on to show that the people who would be homeless but are kept in prisons or insane asylums were any better off that way.

I did not say this. And even it were true, there are people who are homeless but neither criminals nor insane; those people would not have been homeless in the former European communist countries.

Then you can show that full employment in low-paying, unproductive jobs with no possibility of advancement (because command economies don't reward talent and hard work adequately) is better than spending some time unemployed between jobs with much higher pay and better future prospects.

At no time did I say this. I said that unemployment was almost unknown in former European communist countries. Furthermore, you claimed that command economies were capable of forcing people to work to meet high quotas and high standards of productivity, which would be an advantage. If it were true. You haven't shown any evidence of that being true, so maybe you should reconsider.

And you can finish off by showing that the quality of "universal basic health care" that communist countries provided was really worth the cost: low-tech, poorly equiped and undermanned hospitals, little medical advances, and no way for the middle class to access anything better.

And at no point did I say this. I did say that the former European communist countries succeeded in providing universal basic health care to all their citizens which is something this country has not been able to do.

So you see, I am not highly motivated to show you the various links about the quality of education because you apparently are more interested in soap boxing than in listening to what I have to say. Why don't you start by reading what I have already written?
 
Which claims? That communist countries had full employment? Almost no homelessness? Universal basic health care? These are not exactly controversial.

full employment? - That actually is not true many people did not work but were paid a monthly stipend or given meager rations.

full employment? - They actually had TON of homelessness becuase they had such a severe shortage of housing they just made sure to keep it hidden from view.

Universal basic health care? - Ask the canadians how good thier health sysytem is and why so mnay are now buying American health insurance and coming to the states to be treated even though in Canada it is illeagal to buy.
 
Last edited:
There would be no "grotesquely inefficient government endeavours" because there would not be a government. If there is a government, there is no communism. You can't have a stateless, classless society with a state and a ruling class.

This form of "non-government" government would work for 1 person.
Add another person into the mix and Marxism falls flat on it's face.
It's been proven again and again for a few thousand years.
 
full employment? - That actually is not true many people did not work but were paid a monthly stipend or given meager rations.

full employment? - They actually had TON of homelessness becuase they had such a sever shortage of housing they just made sure to keep it hidden from view.

Universal basic health care? - Ask the canadians how good thier health sysytem is and why so mnay are now buying American health insurance and coming to the states to be treated even though in Canada it is illeagal to buy.

If you count retirees and people who were disabled or who were supposed to be disabled, there was not full employment. There's not a economist in the world who counts those people.

They had (almost) no homelessness. They had a lot of people living in substandard housing, but everyone had an address.

The Canadians I know are pretty happy with their health insurance and wouldn't trade it for what we have in the US. There are pluses and minuses in both systems. Unfortunately, I think the US system is going to collapse entirely. I could be wrong about that--I'm no psychic. It is not illegal for Canadians to come to the US for private health care, unless there is some obscure law I don't know about. If there is, I know lots of criminals.
 
I said that unemployment was almost unknown in former European communist countries.
Until, of course, the resources dried up. Such communist countries just put everyone to work. This of course resulted in little productivity and little incentive to innovate. In the end you get paid the same wages so why work hard? Why innovate? Simple game theory. The results were quite easy to predict. With few exceptions countries were hugely inefficient, ran out of resources and became stagnant. Food was largely crap. Products were largely crap. Service was largely crap. And we are talking about the tourist towns. Never mind the average town where there were no choices and you had to get on a waiting list for any and everything including bread and meat.

I would be happy to accept an argument for democratic socialist systems like Denmark. They seem to be doing a pretty good job. You want to make that argument I'm with you. Communist? Sorry, no. Oh, and as a side note to anyone who does not know better, the DDR was not Democratic.
 
If you count retirees and people who were disabled or who were supposed to be disabled, there was not full employment. There's not a economist in the world who counts those people.

They had (almost) no homelessness. They had a lot of people living in substandard housing, but everyone had an address.

The Canadians I know are pretty happy with their health insurance and wouldn't trade it for what we have in the US. There are pluses and minuses in both systems. Unfortunately, I think the US system is going to collapse entirely. I could be wrong about that--I'm no psychic. It is not illegal for Canadians to come to the US for private health care, unless there is some obscure law I don't know about. If there is, I know lots of criminals.

Homelessness - having to live in a tent or a communal shelter with dozens of families is not having a home which is what some in the Soviet Union had to do, our homeless here in America can recieve the same thing if they want it. the problem in the U.S. homeless is so mnay of them are actually suffering from mental illness or drug addiction and refuse help.

Unemployment - Factories in Russia were routinely closed down and the work force idled

on the insurance I stand corrected it was illegal but Canadas high court struck the law down Canadian Supreme Court's June 9th ruling in Chaoulli v. Quebec. It seems that to be treated in canada requires a VERY VERY long wait.

Why Canadians Purchase Private Health Insurance
by Walter Williams (June 20, 2005)

America's socialists advocate that we adopt a universal healthcare system like our northern neighbor Canada. Before we buy into complete socialization of our healthcare system, we might check out the Canadian Supreme Court's June 9th ruling in Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General). It turns out that in order to prop up government-delivered medical care, Quebec and other Canadian provinces have outlawed private health insurance. By a 4 to 3 decision, Canada's high court struck down Quebec's law that prohibits private medical insurance. With all of the leftist hype extolling the "virtues" of Canada's universal healthcare system, you might wonder why any sane Canadian would want to purchase private insurance.

Plaintiffs Jacques Chaoulli, a physician, and his patient, George Zeliotis, launched their legal challenge to the government's monopolized healthcare system after having had to wait a year for hip-replacement surgery. In finding for the plaintiffs, Canada's high court said, "The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public healthcare system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public healthcare. The evidence also demonstrates that the prohibition against private health insurance and its consequence of denying people vital healthcare result in physical and psychological suffering that meets a threshold test of seriousness." Writing for the majority, Justice Marie Deschamps said, "Many patients on non-urgent waiting lists are in pain and cannot fully enjoy any real quality of life. The right to life and to personal inviolability is therefore affected by the waiting times."


Cartoon by Cox and Forkum

The Vancouver, British Columbia-based Fraser Institute keeps track of Canadian waiting times for various medical procedures. According to the Fraser Institute's 14th annual edition of "Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada (2004)," total waiting time between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, rose from 17.7 weeks in 2003 to 17.9 weeks in 2004.

For example, depending on which Canadian province, an MRI requires a wait between 7 and 33 weeks.

Orthopaedic surgery might require a wait of 14 weeks for a referral from a general practitioner to the specialist and then another 24 weeks from the specialist to treatment. That statistic might help explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.

As reported in a December 2003 story by Kerri Houston for the Frontiers of Freedom Institute titled "Access Denied: Canada's Healthcare System Turns Patients into Victims," in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. Canada's Prime Minister Paul Martin responded to the court's decision saying, "We're not going to have a two-tier healthcare system in this country. What we want to do is strengthen the public healthcare system." That's the standard callous political response. He's telling Canadians to continue waiting, continue suffering and perhaps dying until the day comes when there's no more waiting. And though Canadian politicians can't give their citizens a date certain when there'll be no more waiting, they're determined to deny them alternatives to waiting for government-provided healthcare. I'd bet you the rent money that Prime Minister Martin and members of the Canadian Parliament don't have to wait months and years for a medical procedure.

I wonder just how many Americans would like to import Canada's healthcare system, which prohibits the purchase of private insurance and private healthcare services. In British Columbia, for example, Bill 82 provides that a physician can be fined up to $20,000 for accepting fees for surgery. In my book, it's medical Naziism for government to prohibit a person who wishes to purchase medical services from doing so. But let's not look down our noses at our northern neighbors, for we too are well along the road toward medical Naziism.
 
Until, of course, the resources dried up. Such communist countries just put everyone to work. This of course resulted in little productivity and little incentive to innovate. In the end you get paid the same wages so why work hard? Why innovate? Simple game theory. The results were quite easy to predict. With few exceptions countries were hugely inefficient, ran out of resources and became stagnant. Food was largely crap. Products were largely crap. Service was largely crap. And we are talking about the tourist towns. Never mind the average town where there were no choices and you had to get on a waiting list for any and everything including bread and meat.

I would be happy to accept an argument for democratic socialist systems like Denmark. They seem to be doing a pretty good job. You want to make that argument I'm with you. Communist? Sorry, no. Oh, and as a side note to anyone who does not know better, the DDR was not Democratic.

I said something along those lines. Except in the Soviet Union there was usually an excess of bread.

The argument for communism is that it did in fact solve some social problems, at the expense of creating a whole lot of far worse problems. Except that there are still some people out there who think that the trade offs are worth it. I personally think these people are full of it, but I can see how a poor rural Russian senior citizen might disagree. I would guess that the average Russian/Yugoslavian/Ukrainian/Czech is worse off than he was under communism, but that is completely a matter of what metrics you use--secret police vs. no more subsidized potatoes?
 
I said something along those lines. Except in the Soviet Union there was usually an excess of bread.

lol, thats because we sold them alought of the grain to make the bread. Soviet harvests under the communal farms were notoriously bad.
 
Homelessness - having to live in a tent or a communal shelter with dozens of families is not having a home which is what some in the Soviet Union had to do, our homeless here in America can recieve the same thing if they want it. the problem in the U.S. homeless is so mnay of them are actually suffering from mental illness or drug addiction and refuse help.

Unemployment - Factories in Russia were routinely closed down and the work force idled

on the insurance I stand corrected it was illegal but Canadas high court struck the law down Canadian Supreme Court's June 9th ruling in Chaoulli v. Quebec. It seems that to be treated in canada requires a VERY VERY long wait.

It's simply not true that you can receive a tent or a communal shelter if you want it. Zoning laws prohibit people from living in tents in most places, and shelters are overfull. Many kick people out after a short time.

Factories were routinely shut down and the work force idled, but the work force idled a lot when the factories were open as well. Despite all this, everyone had a nominal job and a nominal income.

That article doesn't strike me as very objective. Certain procedures require waits, others don't require any more waiting than in the US.

Here's a survey that shows that Canadians are substantially more satisfied with their health care than US citizens. However Canada is not communist, so there isn't much point in bringing it up.
 
I would guess that the average Russian/Yugoslavian/Ukrainian/Czech is worse off than he was under communism, but that is completely a matter of what metrics you use--secret police vs. no more subsidized potatoes?

It's also a matter of how well they transition away from corrupt, statist economies with authoritarian government. Russia still has an overwhelmingly statist economy, is probably even more corrupt than it was when communist, and maintains far more extensive state powers than western nations do. The Baltic states, however, transitioned to pretty free markets with more democratic governments and are thriving.
 
I guess those bread lines wire just for fun then.

An Englishman, an American, and a Russian were all meeting for coffee in London. The Englishman arrives late, appologizes and says, "I had to stand in line for 30 minutes to buy a steak for dinner tonight."

The American asks, "What's a line?"

The Russian asks, "What's a steak?"
 
It's simply not true that you can receive a tent or a communal shelter if you want it. Zoning laws prohibit people from living in tents in most places, and shelters are overfull. Many kick people out after a short time.

Factories were routinely shut down and the work force idled, but the work force idled a lot when the factories were open as well. Despite all this, everyone had a nominal job and a nominal income.

That article doesn't strike me as very objective. Certain procedures require waits, others don't require any more waiting than in the US.

Here's a survey that shows that Canadians are substantially more satisfied with their health care than US citizens. However Canada is not communist, so there isn't much point in bringing it up.

the tents I used in reference to Russia who did have to resort to tents as housing. as far as homelessness here there are shelters for people to go to and organizations that will help get people off the streets if they want to leave the streets I worked with some of the homeless when I was going to school in California. I saw many that once decided they actually wanted help get housing and jobs.

on the canadian healthcare system posting polls isnt really valid since most americans have no idea what the canadian system is actually like. they just like the idea of not having to pay for healthcare. checkout the magazine artical below it is by the christian science monitor and gives a more realistic outline on the state of medecine there. For instance did you know that Despite spending nearly C$100 billion (US$64 billion) per year on healthcare – the most per capita among countries that run a similar system – a study by the Fraser Institute, a public-policy think tank in Vancouver, shows that Canada ranks only slightly higher than Hungary, Poland, and Turkey in the quality of service its citizens receive.Canada is the last industrialized nation to rely solely on government funds for its core healthcare system. There's an emerging view that it, too, may abandon a system that has long been a symbol of its national identity.

"We are no longer the model," says Michael Walker, executive director of the Fraser Institute. "When you consider that equal access in a country as spread out as Canada would require a greater number of physicians and diagnostic equipment, we're clearly headed in the wrong direction."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0828/p01s04-wogi.html
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom