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Mark Roberts Interview on Skeptic Zone


I've been a member of the JREF forum for quite some time, and I have to say, I haven't seen anything original or thoughtful in any of your posts. They are all filled with bile, insults, and substance-free denial. Most JREFers are abusive, dishonest, and dogmatic, but you take the cake.

And your post is...

Can I eat that cake now, oops it is gone... Good luck, thank you very much

Does this mean you can help 9/11 truth find some evidence, or are you as pure and evidence free as the entire truth movement?

Then you can avoid dealing with the facts that have caused so many people to question what exactly happened?
Show me some details of your false statement.
There is zero evidence to question what happen, there is ignorance which makes some people think they have evidence to question something they don’t understand (fire, aircraft impacts, et al), there is ignorance to not find out what happen; that is the truth movement pure ignorance acting as if they have questions based on evidence, they don't have.

Then people on the sideline kibitzing with even less evidence. Negative evidence is now defined, it is your stand on 9/11 issues; undefined.
 
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If you guys want a sense of how deep and popular anti-semitism is in the 9/11 truth movement, and sadly how much they have done to popularize that ideology, check out this thread at infowars:

http://www.infowars.com/?p=4866&cp=13

CAIR? They are siding with CAIR?

I think someone needs to ask Alex Jones if he believes the Protocols of Zion is real and what does he think of Mein Kempf.

The most ironic thing is if the Islamics ever had their way, Alex Jones would probably be executed despite his insignificance.
 
And the official version was started by...

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, 9/11 Commission Report (an obstructed investigation btw)...

Yeah right. You really have the white hats on your side.
You miss the point. This isn't about personalities, but about facts. It's September, 2008, and the 9/11 "truth" movement has yet to get a significant claim right, and still can't point to any evidence of an "inside job" or to any significant conclusions that the "official" evidence-based investigations get wrong.

Should you some day stumble on some significant new evidence about 9/11, the world will be all ears. Until then, please stop the nonsense and do something productive with yourself.
 
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You forget to mention the NIST scientists, FEMA, the NYFD, NYPD, first responders, Arlington Fire department, FBI, CIA, Controlled Demolition Inc., the mayor of Shanksville, Wally Miller, FAA, NORAD...

And that's just the top of my head.

I didn't forget to mention anything that is on the top of your head. Even the hair that use to be there.

There are people from almost every group you have listed there that have a problem with the official version.

You nor any of them know exactly what happened on 9/11. If you did you wouldn't be here with me.
 
Yes I do. And he might not find it funny. You really didn't need to laugh at him so hard did you? You don't resent your hero at all do you?
HAAAAA, HA HA HA HA HA HA! Oh, you are precious. No wonder you are having a bad time here.


Well you won't have to just think as to what I might be alluding to. I think I make it pretty clear who has been leading you by the nose.
Yep, I do. But I don't think it has quite the impact you think it does.
 
the usual truther trolls here bore me.

what time will Carto and Piper register here and post to this thread? Cause I am all out of popcorn and need to run to the 24 hour A&P to get more.
 
You miss the point. This isn't about personalities, but about facts. It's September, 2008, and the 9/11 "truth" movement has yet to get a significant claim right, and still can't point to any evidence of an "inside job" or to any significant conclusions that the "official" evidence-based investigations get wrong.

Should you some day stumble on some significant new evidence about 9/11, the world will be all ears. Until then, please stop the nonsense and do something productive with yourself.

Bull.

That's right it is September 2008 and the official version on WTC-7 was just released. It turns out all of the the debunkers here with all their facts about 10 story gashes and fuel tanks didn't have anything more then the truth movement for the last seven years. You had no idea and you still don't. You just keep spinning, pretending, and wasting your life.

Why can't YOU let go Gravy? Why are you still here?
 
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HAAAAA, HA HA HA HA HA HA! Oh, you are precious. No wonder you are having a bad time here.

I always have fun here. Maybe you should use more capital and multiple letters when you post and it will at least look like you are having a good time. But probably not.


Yep, I do. But I don't think it has quite the impact you think it does.

It's not about me it's about you and what you fear. I'm just pointing it out.
 
That rubes like Roberts are using smear-tactics to discredit a broad-based and diverse movement of people is irrelevant. He has failed to convince us with his version of the facts, and this is what he's left with.
Please point out what I've gotten wrong. If you cannot, you'll need to rethink your position. You may want to familiarize yourself with my "version of the facts" – the evidence-based version – by reviewing the information in the pages linked above.

Truthers have discredited themselves by being the world's most incompetent and/or dishonest "investigators." You can't do worse than getting everything wrong.

Please bear this in mind: evidence and facts do not change depending on if you are "convinced" by them. Reality will never adjust itself to your misconceptions.
 
And the official version was started by...

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, 9/11 Commission Report (an obstructed investigation btw)...

Really?

Please provide a source that substantiates either Bush, Cheney, or Rumsfeld provided a narrative of the events of 9/11 we now call "the official version".

And when you fail at that task, see if you can provide an explanation how anyone other than Truthers knew what happened on 9/11 prior to the release of the 9/11 Commission Report in 2004.
 
Bull.

That's right it is September 2008 and the official version on WTC-7 was just released. It turns out all of the the debunkers here with all their facts about 10 story gashes and fuel tanks didn't have anything more then the truth movement for the last seven years.
False. Please read my paper WTC 7 and the Lies of the 9/11 Truth Movement.

You had no idea and you still don't. You just keep spinning, pretending, and wasting your life.
Your inability to support your claims is noted and filed in a very, very packed file cabinet.

Why can't YOU let go Gravy? Why are you still here?
When exactly should I stop caring about getting the facts surrounding the events of 9/11 right? Why does my concern about that bother you?

Further, I'm checking to be sure that the statements I made about the 9/11 "truth" movement in the podcast are accurate. So far, they're right on the money.

I'll try to increase the signal-to-noise ratio in this thread by asking if you can briefly state your position about the events of 9/11 and what evidence would change your mind.
 
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That's right it is September 2008 and the official version on WTC-7 was just released. It turns out all of the the debunkers here with all their facts about 10 story gashes and fuel tanks didn't have anything more then the truth movement for the last seven years.

Do you know what a hypothesis is?
 
It's one thing to be ignorant and too lazy to do your homework. It's another thing to flaunt those regrettable qualities.

Eric Hufschmid, author of the 9/11 conspiracy book “Painful Questions” and the video “Painful Deceptions,” is so proud of his Holocaust denial that he calls himself a “HoloHoax exposer.”

– The owners of the popular, and early, 9/11 conspiracy website Serendipity.li, who publish articles such as “In Defense of Anti-Semitism” and “Jewish media myths leading us to World War III.”

– The host of the webcast “Wing TV,” who goes by the pseudonym “Victor Thorn,” and who published a booklet titled “Christ Killers.”

Carol Valentine, who runs the conspiracy website Public-Action.com, where the current headline is “The American Coup d’Etat and the War for Jewish Supremacy,” and who writes, “Zionist Christians are traitors to America. Along with Jews, they scream loudest for Arab blood, even though all rational analysis shouts that Israel and Israeli agents in America were responsible for 9-11.”

– “Scholar for Truth” Rick Rajter praises Iran’s president Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust denial and has a website that links to the neo-Nazi site Stormfront. More about him on the Screw Loose Change blog.

– The writers and editors of the American Free Press, whose work is cited several times in Loose Change. They formerly published The Spotlight, a harsher anti-Semitic paper, which was shut down when a lawsuit bankrupted Willis Carto’s Liberty Lobby organization.

– 9/11 conspiracy promoter “Killtown,” who presents the idea that fewer than 300,000 Jews may have died at the hands of the Nazis, and who believes that Israel was involved in the terrorist attacks of 9/11 and therefore may be lying about the Holocaust.]

I was aware of course that there are/were Holocaust deniers and anti-Semitic people within the 9/11 Truth Movement. As I stated in a previous post, "All political and social movements have crazy people in their midst." Eric Hufschmid is hostile to many people within the 9/11 Truth Movement. He once wrote, "This is also the reason I am not promoted by other 9/11 truth groups, and other radio stations. My conclusion is that most of the 9/11 truth groups and the media are controlled by Zionists, and they censor anybody who brings up these issues." He goes on to give a list of "9/11 Truther liars" who seek to deny the alleged Zionist role in 9/11: Karl Schwarz, Tom Flocco, John Stadtmiller, Greg Szymanski, Webster Tarpley, Dave von Kleist, Alex Jones etc.

The anti-Semites don't seem to play that large of a role in the current 9/11 Truth Movement. Killtown was banned from 9/11 blogger, and the websites serendipity and public-action are not even that prominent within the 9/11 Truth Movement. Steven Jones, David Ray Griffin, Jim Hoffman, Richard Gage, Kevin Ryan, and Paul Thompson are the most prominent Truthers currently. None of them can be described as Holocaust deniers or anti-Semetic.

You write, "That said, I’m not aware of a single Holocaust denier or anti-Semite who’s prominent on the 9/11 myth-debunking side."

But those who believe the official 9/11 fairy tale do believe in killing innocent Arabs/Muslims for 9/11.

Ann Coulter: "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

Michelle Malkin wrote a book entitled In Defense of Internment which she attempted to defend or at least provoke debate regarding the internment of Japanese during WWII. She wrote, "Make no mistake: I am not advocating rounding up all Arabs or Muslims and tossing them into camps, but when we are under attack, 'Racial profiling' - or more precisely, threat profiling - is justified" I wonder if a prominent truther had said a similar comment after 9/11 and just substituted the words "Arabs" and "Muslims" with Jews.

Talk show host Michael Reagan gave his opinion on 9/11 Truthers,

"We ought to find the people who are doing this, take them out and shoot them. Really. You take them out, they are traitors to this country, and shoot them. You have a problem with that? Deal with it. You shoot them. You call them traitors, that's what they are, and you shoot them dead. I'll pay for the bullets. How about you take Mark Dice out and put him in the middle of a firing range. Tie him to a post, don't blindfold him, let it rip and have some fun with Mark Dice."

Lawrence Auster from vfr has even advocated outlawing Islam in American. He once wrote,

"Declare that Islam is not just a religion but a political movement aimed at gaining power, and therefore the individual beliefs of individual Muslims matter less than the overall presence of Islam among us which strengthens the Islamic political agenda. Therefore (1) Islam is not a religion receiving protections under the First Amendment, and (2) Islam is not welcome in this country." I wonder if a prominent truther had said the same thing about Judaism/Zionism after 9/11, what the response would be. I suppose Anti-Arab sentiment is acceptable more acceptable.

As well, the official 9/11 fairy tale has been used to invade a country(Iraq) that had nothing to do with 9/11. Hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and millions of people have become refugees. Neo-con conspiracy theories are responsible for the deaths of thousands. Actually killing innocent people bothers me more than someone's opinions about Zionism, no matter how noxious.

Overall, this was just another lame attempt by you to divert attention away from your comment that truthers just make stuff up, while those in the debunking community rely on facts and evidence.

As well, if someone has a problem with the political views expressed by the American Free Press then that can be discussed in the politics forum. Gregory Urich, who is Jewish and a member of Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice stated,

"The Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice group is larger than Steve Jones and has clearly denounced "ALL forms of prejudice and bigotry" in this statement on their public web site."
 
Talk show host Michael Reagan gave his opinion on 9/11 Truthers,

"We ought to find the people who are doing this, take them out and shoot them. Really. You take them out, they are traitors to this country, and shoot them. You have a problem with that? Deal with it. You shoot them. You call them traitors, that's what they are, and you shoot them dead. I'll pay for the bullets. How about you take Mark Dice out and put him in the middle of a firing range. Tie him to a post, don't blindfold him, let it rip and have some fun with Mark Dice."


And Reagan apologized for his ill-tempered remarks and even had Mark Dice on his show.

I guess you missed that part of the story.
 
HomIns....

Pathetic.

Gravy...

Sorry our interview led to this. You were quite right.

Quite right about what? He attempts to compare 9/11 Truthers to Holocaust deniers. The most prominent 9/11 Truth organization, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, has nothing to do with Holocaust denial. The Jersey Girls were instrumental in the creation of the 9/11 Commission and have certainly played a much larger role than the anti-Semites that Mark Roberts references.

The 9/11 Commission released their report in 2004. Prior to then, how did anyone who is not a conspiracy theorist know what happened on 9/11?

Zdenek Bazant and Yong Zhou had their first paper ready to go on 09/13/2001. Jerome Hauer was on national television that day stating that the jet impacts and the subsequent fires caused the towers to collapse. He also expressed his belief that it had all the fingerprints of someone like bin Laden. Of course, he stated all this with zero evidence.

My apologies, then.

Oh, and could you provide a bit of evidence that the movement (not your movement) is "broad-based and diverse"? Those are not adjectives I would use, so I look forward to your educating me.

Richard Gage described himself as a Reagan conservative. Steven Jones was at one point a registered Republican. David Ray Griffin is your standard leftist college professor. Alex Jones calls himself a paleo-conservative/libertarian. Paul Thompson is probably a liberal. Two of the Jersey Girls(Mindy Kleinberg, Lorie van Auken) are Democrats. Kristen Breitweiser and Patty Casazza both voted for George Bush in the first election. Regarding the rank and file, the majority are on the political left.
 
"He attempts to compare 9/11 Truthers to Holocaust deniers"

***********LIE**********

"Of course, he stated all this with zero evidence. "


***********LIE*********
 
Having lately being accused of anti-Semitism myself in one of the few threads I’ve taken part in and given the fact that some of the same people are indulging themselves here I was naturally curious about this one.

@tanabear: The point you’ve made, that it was poor form to highlight the worst elements of the ‘truth movement’ as being notable when the exact same can be done with extremist ‘skeptics’, is a perfectly fair one and Mr. Roberts character would no doubt go up in the estimation of many people if he could acknowledge this. Unfortunately many here (on both sides of discussions) seem to take reasoned discourse as being some sort of contest to see whose original position will dominate, refusing to give ground in any area no matter how strong or reasonable the argument against them.

An additional point I’d like to make, which generated very irrational and boorish cries of ‘racism’ in the aforementioned thread is that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are not synonyms.

There are many people opposed to the political ideology of Zionism (which has profound impact in international affairs) who have no negative views of either the Jewish people as a race (who, apart from the prominent Zionists, have no special influence on world affairs) or the Jewish religion (which has next to no relevance politically).

You can either choose to recognize what is a self-evident fact or denigrate yourself by labeling people such as Rabbi Michael Lerner, Norman Finkelstein, Israel Shahak and a wide variety of orthodox Jews (e.g. http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/), who oppose the political ideology of Zionism, as “self-hating Jews”.

Willis Carto, from what I've read about him, does certainly seem to have a vile streak of racism running through him. This doesn't, however, anyone associated with him or his newspaper is also racist. On top of this Carto's racism (or that of any racist) is entirely irrelvant to the validity of their other views. Highlighting their character is an appeal to emotion rather than logic (though I don't care to much about this aspect as I myself prefer to simply avoid engaging such people in the first place).

There are certainly racists among the proponents of 9/11 truth who should be identified and condemned for their prejudiced views but failing to differentiate between Zionism and Semitism not only condemns an unwarranted and excessively broad array of people it also allows actual racists to evade full scrutiny and condemnation by including them amongst groups whose views are actually defensible (if not neccesarily correct).

Its also possible you might have racist groups claiming to be “anti-Zionist”. This is hardly surprising as by virtue of being anti-Semitic you are automatically anti-Zionist (but not vice-versa). It isn’t hard to distinguish between them though. If someone mentions that Michael Perle is a Zionist this, depending upon the discussion, might be a fair and relevant point. If someone mentions that he, or Chertoff or Silverstein, etc. is a Jew, there’s almost no context in which that is a relevant or decent comment to make.

Anyway, I’m not expecting actual rational responses to these points (knee-jerk reactions seemed far more satisfying to posters in my last thread) but as far as I can see two things are unassailable by rational argument:

1. There are extremists on both sides of the truther/skeptic divide (which I personally regard as a false and destructive dichotomy but…), such people are a minority in both camps and do a disservice to the majority or reasonable people in each, not least because despite their small size they may well be the most vocal. Consequently highlighting them without pointing out their fringe status is poor form.
2. Zionism is not Semitism and to conflate opposition to the former with hatred of the latter is at best an ad hominem argument and more accurately may be considered character assassination.

Failure to recognize these two points is making what is, supposedly, a place of rational thought appear to be a reactionary playpen in which personal views carry more weight that actual argument.
 
Quite right about what? He attempts to compare 9/11 Truthers to Holocaust deniers. The most prominent 9/11 Truth organization, Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, has nothing to do with Holocaust denial. The Jersey Girls were instrumental in the creation of the 9/11 Commission and have certainly played a much larger role than the anti-Semites that Mark Roberts references.
And it had nothing to do with architects and engineers. *rimshot*
1. There are extremists on both sides of the truther/skeptic divide (which I personally regard as a false and destructive dichotomy but…), such people are a minority in both camps and do a disservice to the majority or reasonable people in each, not least because despite their small size they may well be the most vocal. Consequently highlighting them without pointing out their fringe status is poor form.
It's not really a false dichotomy because I see one group as delusional and the other as sane.
 
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The anti-Semites don't seem to play that large of a role in the current 9/11 Truth Movement.

Wrong.

- Steven Jones' "research" on Thermite was based on Chris Bollyn's article about the "molten steel". He even cites Chris Bollyn and there is a picture of the two together.

- Loose Change practically used AFP for nearly every claim. The pentagon engines, the molten steel, etc.

- Carol Valentine's theories such as fake passports, no muslim hijackers, and a drone plane hitting the Pentagon are still used in mainstream 9/11 denialism. His theories spouted in October 2001, before any investigation was done.

- Eric was interviewed on 9/11 mysteries, another popular 9/11 denier film.

Again, all you need to do is look at WTC7 to see the anti-semite influence on the movement. There were other buildings collapsed not mentioned in the 9/11 commission (nor they should be), so why the focus on WTC7? Jews. There is no other reason.

And now with Alex Jones saying that Obsession DVD is propaganda (despite using Arab's own footage and spoke with people from middle eastern countries), AJ is saying Jews are behind it and sides with the CAIR, an Islamic extremist group.

You might not like it but Anti-semitism is still a big fish in the 9/11 denier pool.
 
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