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Marijuana and Mental Illness

Thanks for the links, don't have time to read through all that, but, scrolled through a random picked link, the first one. There I found this:
"A major differential risk between cannabis and cigarette smoking was observed, with one joint of cannabis being similar to ∼20 cigarettes for risk of lung cancer. This is consistent with the observation that smoking “a few” cannabis joints a day causes similar histological changes in the tracheobronchial epithelium as smoking 20–30 tobacco cigarettes a day".

MJ smoking is bad, really bad for your lungs according to this paper, making the evidence of the opposite more questionable.

Do not edit the posts you quote, that is bogus, you can cut them but not alter them to change the meaning. :)
you also could read the conclusion of the abstract which apparently you did not
In total, 79 cases of lung cancer and 324 controls were included in the study. The risk of lung cancer increased 8% (95% confidence interval (CI) 2–15) for each joint-yr of cannabis smoking, after adjustment for confounding variables including cigarette smoking, and 7% (95% CI 5–9) for each pack-yr of cigarette smoking, after adjustment for confounding variables including cannabis smoking. The highest tertile of cannabis use was associated with an increased risk of lung cancer (relative risk 5.7 (95% CI 1.5–21.6)), after adjustment for confounding variables including cigarette smoking.

So one joint/year is a little higher risk than one pack/year, and so.... So for each joint year the risk rises 8% and each pack year the risk rises 7%

This is one study of a small sample of people, as well. But please be sure to read one paper and then show us all what confirmation bias looks like.
 
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The studies on lung cancer seem to have shown a very small effect when properly controlled to exclude tobacco smokers. The ones that did not properly control are worthless. In any case, smoking is just what you do when you can't go to the Wal Mart and buy a proper vaporizer.
 
Do not edit the posts you quote, that is bogus, you can cut them but not alter them to change the meaning. :)
you also could read the conclusion of the abstract which apparently you did not


So one joint/year is a little higher risk than one pack/year, and so.... So for each joint year the risk rises 8% and each pack year the risk rises 7%

This is one study of a small sample of people, as well. But please be sure to read one paper and then show us all what confirmation bias looks like.

It was not my purpose to alter the quote to change the meaning(how was the meaning changed by the way?). As I am not allowed to include links in my posts, I had to remove the links in the quote of your post. Your name was kept, so people knew what post the reply was to. If you were offended by this, then sorry..

The point is, if people want to claim that MJ smoking is harmless according to science, then they need to back up this with more than personal interpretions of conflicting research data.

If MJ is harmless to smoke, then great, but evidence thanks.
 
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It was not my purpose to alter the quote to change the meaning(how was the meaning changed by the way?). As I am not allowed to include links in my posts, I had to remove the links in the quote of your post. Your name was kept, so people knew what post the reply was to. If you were offended by this, then sorry..
I made a smile and it would have copied the posts. Just a heads up.
:)
The point is, if people want to claim that MJ smoking is harmless according to science, then they need to back up this with more than personal interpretions of conflicting research data.

If MJ is harmless to smoke, then great, but evidence thanks.

It is sort of inconclusive, the data is not yet that strong and it really will depend on sample size, I just gave the google links off of 'epidemiology marijuana cancer', the testicular study if valid is scary.

I did not say it was harmless, but some studies also show that it is not as strong a carcinogen as tobacco. It certainly has fewer harmful effects than alcohol, and does not cause mental illness.

(I am an ex-user, it rags me out for days afterwards, it aggravates my depression.)
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At the suggestion of another forum member on another thread which was becoming off topic, I would like to discuss marijuana, and its link to adult onset schizophrenia, schizo-affective disorder and Bipolar Disorder. This is the post I left on the other thread:

I've recently seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to chronic marijuana use.

IMO, it's time we stopped the denial about the harm caused by marijuana. I think that the modern weed makes people go crazy. It alters the ventricles in the brain. One doctor I heard said that he's seen brain scans of people who chronically smoked marijuana and their brains showed the same sort of damage as heroin addicts.

America has to stop its habit through eduction. Colleges have to stop turning a blind eye to students who smoke weed. They have to deny scholarships, close the Medical Marijuana clinics within walking distance from their campuses, stop college psychologists from talking up the harmless effects of pot.

Even if smoking marijuana did cause severe mental illnesses in some cases, your recommendations would not follow. First, it would only target people applying to college, which would be a very small subset of all people using marijuana and of all people at risk for mental illness. Many people with mental illnesses (drug induced or not) cannot afford to go to college, or already graduated college, or have other career paths.

Also, when marijuana is prescribed for medical use, it is usually prescribed to people who are terminally ill or who have chronic conditions. Lots of drugs that treat one condition have dangerous potential side effects. We don't ban them just because of the side effects, we regulate them. Should doctors stop prescribing opiates to people in severe pain because some other people abuse them?
 
I made a smile and it would have copied the posts. Just a heads up.
:)


It is sort of inconclusive, the data is not yet that strong and it really will depend on sample size, I just gave the google links off of 'epidemiology marijuana cancer', the testicular study if valid is scary.

I did not say it was harmless, but some studies also show that it is not as strong a carcinogen as tobacco. It certainly has fewer harmful effects than alcohol, and does not cause mental illness.

(I am an ex-user, it rags me out for days afterwards, it aggravates my depression.)
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Ok, thanks for the head up.

No one is accusing you of claiming smoking MJ is harmless. I just got curious when some posts on this forum claimed science have okayed smoking MJ.

By the way, alcohol, in the form of wine, consumed properly, is probably more healthy than MJ ever can become, even if vaping.
 
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Whether or not mj is dangerous has little to do with whether it should be legal. Prohibition damn sure is dangerous though!

Also you can call me a "pothead" if you want to. However I'm not sure what that proves since I'm super successful and don't really fit the "stoner" stereotype that you would all like to believe in. The level of ignorance on display is making me sick.
 
Even if smoking marijuana did cause severe mental illnesses in some cases, your recommendations would not follow. First, it would only target people applying to college, which would be a very small subset of all people using marijuana and of all people at risk for mental illness. Many people with mental illnesses (drug induced or not) cannot afford to go to college, or already graduated college, or have other career paths.

Firstly, colleges are often where scientific breakthoughs happen, so if an improvement was noticed in the the number of students being diagnosed with mental illness after MJ rules were tightened, these colleges would have data which could be studied to form a better picture of the possible link. Secondly, as mentioned earlier, most college students are funded to study, not waste time and cause possible damage to their health. It's simply a matter of financial fairness.

Also, when marijuana is prescribed for medical use, it is usually prescribed to people who are terminally ill or who have chronic conditions. Lots of drugs that treat one condition have dangerous potential side effects. We don't ban them just because of the side effects, we regulate them. Should doctors stop prescribing opiates to people in severe pain because some other people abuse them?

Then way does a city like Los Angeles, where I live, have a concentration of Medical Marijuana clinics within walking distance from colleges? The population in these areas is mostly not chronically or terminally ill - on the contrary - they are mostly young, physically fit students? As mentioned earlier, I live next to college lecturers and they let me in on a little secret - apparently about 70% of students at the college where they teach are on some sort of psych medication - either anti-depressants, anti ADHD etc. I also know from a recent PBS in depth coverage of Medical Marijuana clinics (So Cal Connected with Val Zavala) how lax some of the doctors can be in prescribing MJ. Many students can easily get a "green card" prescribed for them. It is my suspicion that these Medical Marijuana clinics see the student population as easy clients.

Lets face it, marijuana has been popular on college campuses for decades and its non-legal status is often overlooked. At some colleges, even the lecturers smoke it. You all must have seen the Michael Shermer YouTube video where he talks about Carl Sagan indulging. The gradual increase in THC content over the decades seems to have been overlooked by whoever is running our colleges - presumably people who don't smoke it - and I just don't think they realize how dangerous it has become. We all know that banning has not and probably will not work, so regulation is the only sensitive alternative.

If MJ is made legal, I wonder if there will be lawsuits against Phillip Morris etc if they do not print warnings on their packets of reefers? Suppose a 24 year old, who might have been prone to schizophrenia suddenly became delusional and paranoid after smoking some of their product? How would one prove the case either way? Wait - the lawyers will love this!
 
If MJ is made legal, I wonder if there will be lawsuits against Phillip Morris etc if they do not print warnings on their packets of reefers? Suppose a 24 year old, who might have been prone to schizophrenia suddenly became delusional and paranoid after smoking some of their product? How would one prove the case either way? Wait - the lawyers will love this!

Can't be any worse than cancer or heart disease. I've said already that I'm happy for health warnings to be plastered all over the stuff, if it allows me as a consenting adult to make a choice about what harm I do or don't do to my body. In Australia, the government should very soon be legislating the worlds strictest tobacco laws in the world in terms of advertising and warnings. Eqach pack will have to have half the pack dedicated to graphic warning labels and the packs have to have no brand colour or brand font, just plain brown packaging stating the brand with no logo's. I'd be more than happy to see that happen to legal MJ.
 
Firstly, colleges are often where scientific breakthoughs happen, so if an improvement was noticed in the the number of students being diagnosed with mental illness after MJ rules were tightened, these colleges would have data which could be studied to form a better picture of the possible link.


In case you've been living under a rock, marijuana rules have been tightened for most of the past century. It's been illegal to buy, sell, own, or use it. It's been damned near illegal to be in the same room with other people who have some in their pocket. And somehow the cause and effect relationship you seem to desperately want is so elusive that it appears nonexistent.

And if you think about it, there are all kinds of studies you could run at colleges by restricting or encouraging all kinds of things. But running mental illness experiments on populations of college students is, well...

But your point seems to be that you don't have a speck of evidence yet to show that marijuana use causes mental illness.

Secondly, as mentioned earlier, most college students are funded to study, not waste time and cause possible damage to their health. It's simply a matter of financial fairness.


And as mentioned earlier, yet was met with your willful ignorance... As a matter of financial fairness, the kid who does pay his own way should be allowed to smoke all the dope he can get his hands on if he wants, right? And what about the kid who studies real late at night and drags himself into class late? He should be penalized the same as a kid who smoked a few hits with his morning coffee and dragged himself into class late. Or the kid who got to class late because he was up all night at his job, the job he got because he has the motivation to get a college education and works real hard for it. As a matter of financial fairness you should be advocating kicking that kid out of school, too. Or is your cry for financial fairness not fair at all and based on your self righteous morality stand on marijuana?

Oh, and not a speck of evidence yet to show that marijuana use causes mental illness?

Then way does a city like Los Angeles, where I live, have a concentration of Medical Marijuana clinics within walking distance from colleges? The population in these areas is mostly not chronically or terminally ill - on the contrary - they are mostly young, physically fit students? As mentioned earlier, I live next to college lecturers and they let me in on a little secret - apparently about 70% of students at the college where they teach are on some sort of psych medication - either anti-depressants, anti ADHD etc.


Some lecturers let you in on a little secret? That's rich. You must know your little crusade is failing when you have to use arguments from secret knowledge to support it. Like, you know, UFO woos and 911 Truthers? :p

But seriously, so what? Your argument from incredulity and your non sequiturs aren't helping you make a case that marijuana use causes mental illness. They're only helping you make a case that you don't like the idea of people using marijuana.

I also know from a recent PBS in depth coverage of Medical Marijuana clinics (So Cal Connected with Val Zavala) how lax some of the doctors can be in prescribing MJ. Many students can easily get a "green card" prescribed for them. It is my suspicion that these Medical Marijuana clinics see the student population as easy clients.


And again so what? Yes, it pisses you off that people like to smoke pot. We know that. But in all your research from watching PBS shows and all your secret knowledge you get from living in the same neighborhood as some college professors, do you have any evidence to show that marijuana use causes mental illness?

Lets face it, marijuana has been popular on college campuses for decades and its non-legal status is often overlooked. At some colleges, even the lecturers smoke it. You all must have seen the Michael Shermer YouTube video where he talks about Carl Sagan indulging. The gradual increase in THC content over the decades seems to have been overlooked by whoever is running our colleges - presumably people who don't smoke it - and I just don't think they realize how dangerous it has become. We all know that banning has not and probably will not work, so regulation is the only sensitive alternative.


Yep, you alone notice things about marijuana THC content and how dangerous it can be, while all the professional sociologists, psychologists, admissions directors, and financial managers at all the colleges are overlooking it? That's rich, too. You know if you were just honest and not so desperate to inflict your self righteousness on the rest of the world, you'd just admit that you think marijuana is bad and leave it at that. Your silly arguments are getting sillier all the time.

If MJ is made legal, I wonder if there will be lawsuits against Phillip Morris etc if they do not print warnings on their packets of reefers? Suppose a 24 year old, who might have been prone to schizophrenia suddenly became delusional and paranoid after smoking some of their product? How would one prove the case either way? Wait - the lawyers will love this!


Of course no 24 year old ever became delusional after eating Captain Crunch, or after using Right Guard deodorant, or after eating mashed potatoes at KFC. You can wonder all you like, you can rant and make up ridiculous hypothetical scenarios to fuel your fear, but the subject is marijuana causing mental illness, and although it's been asked before, do you have legitimate substantial evidence to show that marijuana use causes mental illness? You are allowed to be honest and just say, "No."
 
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The gradual increase in THC content over the decades seems to have been overlooked by whoever is running our colleges - presumably people who don't smoke it - and I just don't think they realize how dangerous it has become.


What is it that you think is so different about high end expensive cannabis' effects? You don't seem to understand that people don't generally smoke it the same way they smoke the domestic grade cannabis you smoked in the 60s. It get's you a lot more stoned, that's all. So you smoke a lot less as a result, do you not understand this?

You also seem to be under the misconception that all pot is super pot now. This is not true at all. If you want to buy the potent cannabis you're so fearful of, you have to pay at least $20 for only one gram. Here in the midwest and south you often pay even more per gram.

Most of the pot being smoked in much of the lower 48 states is still the domestic quality you had in the 60s, it's actually criminal how bad some of the product being sold is in my opinion. :p It costs around $20 for 7.5 grams.

This super weed you seem to think has taken over will never cost that little as long as the black market has it's way. As a result, people not only smoke much less of the high grade, you also don't seem to understand people only want to get so stoned.

Compare it to beer. If suddenly all you could get is rotgut moonshine, people would only be drinking sips of it at dinner for the most part. Unless you want to get wasted off your rocker, there's no need to. You smoke a few hits at most now as opposed to a joint or two.

In the end, I don't think you believe this, or care. Your only argument seems to be that you don't like it. You have nothing to back up your opinion that is compelling to someone who lacks your conviction, so why you continue to sit here and announce your personal like or dislikes under the guise of a logical discussion is beyond me.
 
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Of course no 24 year old ever became delusional after eating Captain Crunch, or after using Right Guard deodorant, or after eating mashed potatoes at KFC. You can wonder all you like, you can rant and make up ridiculous hypothetical scenarios to fuel your fear, but the subject is marijuana causing mental illness, and although it's been asked before, do you have legitimate substantial evidence to show that marijuana use causes mental illness? You are allowed to be honest and just say, "No."

What is legitimate substantial evidence? How does science measure mental illness anyway? I don't mean to derail this thread, but even if psychiatrists do seem to have a pigeon-hole for mental "diseases" like Bipolar or Schizophrenia, why do we let them label people and sometimes isolate them in mental hospitals?

I see a parallel here to being gay, Jewish, a gypsy or an illegal immigrant to the U.S. How come our tolerance doesn't extend to those with some sort of mental eccentricity?

End of derail, but as for evidence - I could probably find more "brain scan" papers if I tried, but don't think I'll even bother, because I know that they are not 100% conclusive. The purpose of this thread was not to incite fear, but to perhaps bring some justice to what some mothers/parents might be seeing as a situation which has become potentially dangerous to the health of their children.

I also wanted to include an extensive article at http://www.schizophrenia.com

which I think might have started off this line of thinking about 10 years ago. It was the "original" study (in Sweden I think) of military conscripts. The actual study used to be found at http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

but I cannot access either of these pages, for some reason (using Mozilla or IE). I get an error message saying "problem loading page". I don't know if anyone else can access them - or maybe they have been blocked for some reason.
 
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In addition to the apparently non-existent urls above (maybe schizophrenia.com doesn't exist any more), here is a study cited at the Wikipedia schizophrenia page:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17662880

"INTERPRETATION: The evidence is consistent with the view that cannabis increases risk of psychotic outcomes independently of confounding and transient intoxication effects, although evidence for affective outcomes is less strong. The uncertainty about whether cannabis causes psychosis is unlikely to be resolved by further longitudinal studies such as those reviewed here. However, we conclude that there is now sufficient evidence to warn young people that using cannabis could increase their risk of developing a psychotic illness later in life"
 
Honestly, it's something weird with _some_ of the long time smokers. They are a bit stupid or something. Doubt the legalization movement would use them as poster smokers.

But it's interesting that the numbers of MJ smokers have gone up, while cases of schizophrenia have been declining the same time.
 
What is legitimate substantial evidence? How does science measure mental illness anyway? I don't mean to derail this thread, but even if psychiatrists do seem to have a pigeon-hole for mental "diseases" like Bipolar or Schizophrenia, why do we let them label people and sometimes isolate them in mental hospitals?


Okay, so now you've backpedaled. You admit to not knowing what labels like Bipolar and Schizophrenia even mean, yet you've written all these words claiming that using marijuana can cause them. And you don't see a problem with your notion that uninformed hunches trump empirical science?

I see a parallel here to being gay, Jewish, a gypsy or an illegal immigrant to the U.S. How come our tolerance doesn't extend to those with some sort of mental eccentricity?


I don't know. Why are there bigots like that, you know, who would toss a kid out of college for indulging his curiosity or his simple desire to do something that doesn't hurt anyone else but makes him feel good? How come our tolerance doesn't extend to those with that sort of mental eccentricity? Maybe because something about being a bigot makes those prone to bigotry feel good? Maybe because some people seem to need something to hate and have chosen marijuana users as their target? Maybe because bigots rely on hunches rather than reality based, sound science to make their decisions? I don't know. I'm not a bigot. Perhaps you can tell us.

End of derail, but as for evidence - I could probably find more "brain scan" papers if I tried, but don't think I'll even bother, because I know that they are not 100% conclusive.


[Bolding mine.] Can we take that to mean you simply don't care about evidence because you already have your mind made up, much like UFO woos, 911 Truthers, and garden variety bigots?

The purpose of this thread was not to incite fear, but to perhaps bring some justice to what some mothers/parents might be seeing as a situation which has become potentially dangerous to the health of their children.


You continue to claim that using marijuana is "a situation which has become potentially dangerous". Do you really not see a problem with digging in your heels to cling to your hunches-trump-science and magical thinking, making unevidenced claims all the while outright refusing to acquire the evidence? And do you really not see that the bigotry exists because people with your attitude perpetuate it? Honestly?

I also wanted to include an extensive article at http://www.schizophrenia.com

which I think might have started off this line of thinking about 10 years ago. It was the "original" study (in Sweden I think) of military conscripts. The actual study used to be found at http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

but I cannot access either of these pages, for some reason (using Mozilla or IE). I get an error message saying "problem loading page". I don't know if anyone else can access them - or maybe they have been blocked for some reason.


This line of thinking which you continue to express started off a lot longer ago than ten years. Reefer Madness was released in 1938. And fear of the unknown, magical thinking, and relying on hunches have been common to humanity since, well, pretty much forever.
 
GeeMack: I don't know how you can compare a film made in 1938 by a Church group to legitimate, scientific research conducted in the past 10 years. Did you even read the evidence cited in my last post? And please stop distorting my ideas about college students from my first post, which was originally posted in a thread about about drug related violence in Mexico. I've explained this before.

The latest scientific research, cited above, warns young people that using cannabis could increase their risk of developing a psychotic illness later in life.
End of story.
 
What's the absolute risk increase comparing an average cannabis user to those who do not?

And even if it does show a significant absolute risk increase, would comparing cannabis to other legal drugs show either in a positive light?

More to the point, can you conceivably imagine a piece of evidence that would change your mind as to whether cannabis should be a legal rather than prohibited drug of choice?
 

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