Marijuana and Mental Illness

[BenBurch]

One problem with getting old is that I couldn't connect with any even if I wanted to. I know literally nobody who could connect me any more.

 

[Aquila]

Bill Gates, Larry Ellison and Steven Jobs allegedly smoked weed back in the seventies.

Sometimes I wonder if they made anything of their lives. I'll have a look if they're on Facebook and see what I can find out.

, but as we've mentioned several times, it was much milder then.

 

[Aquila]

I'm a bit upset that this thread has turned into a discussion of legal-illegal arguments. My main idea on this Science board was to discuss the evidence about brain damage; I think that I might have introduced legal issues unintentionally by pasting a post from the Social Issues board as my OP (where I opined about what colleges might do to curtail MJ use by students who were wasting private or public money, and possibly contributing to the drug-infused violence in Mexico). Could we please get back to scientific evidence on this thread?

 

[Halfcentaur]

, but as we've mentioned several times, it was much milder then.

Only the high end very expensive product is different that what was smoked in the 70s. For those of us in the midwestern united states, not near a city or who don't want to spend over 100 dollars on a quarter of an ounce, the potency is no different.
And I fail to see how the difference changes that quote, the effect is the same, people just smoke much less for the same desired effect. It does not suddenly transcend and launch you into a world of hallucinations, it just makes you feel like you smoked twice as much, and has a bit more nuance to appreciate, as well as having a much more pungent smell and flavor.

The evidence of brain damage was discussed. Unless you have something further to add, what more do you want said? There are very few studies that even suggest what you seem to suspect, you'd think if this was happening, it would be a common effect in the users. I'd wager you are "upset" because you are finding so few people who take your fears seriously.

 

[Emet]

Heavy Marijuana Use Doesn't Damage Brain
Analysis of Studies Finds Little Effect From Long-Term Use
By Sid Kirchheimer
WebMD Health News
July 1, 2003 -- Long-term and even daily marijuana use doesn't appear to cause permanent brain damage, adding to evidence that it can be a safe and effective treatment for a wide range of diseases, say researchers.



The researchers found only a "very small" impairment in memory and learning among long-term marijuana users. Otherwise, scores on thinking tests were similar to those who don't smoke marijuana, according to a new analysis of 15 previous studies.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20030701/heavy-marijuana-use-doesnt-damage-brain

Cannabis and the brain
Leslie Iversen

Central effects of cannabinoids include disruption of psychomotor behaviour, short‐term memory impairment, intoxication, stimulation of appetite, antinociceptive actions (particularly against pain of neuropathic origin) and anti‐emetic effects. Although there are signs of mild cognitive impairment in chronic cannabis users there is little evidence that such impairments are irreversible, or that they are accompanied by drug‐induced neuropathology.

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/126/6/1252.abstract

 

[Praktik]

And I fail to see how the difference changes that quote, the effect is the same, people just smoke much less for the same desired effect.

This is something non-users just don't understand, likely cause their experience on mind-altering drugs is limited to alcohol, a substance whose regular mode of ingestion results in a delayed effect on the brain.

So you can drink past your comfort point very easily.

But as a regular and heavy pot smoker I can attest - and every other smoker will back me on this - that pot has a "i'm cool" moment. The moment you realize you're fine and you don't need to smoke anymore.

This is aided by the method of ingestion: smoking or vapourizing has near-immediate effects on the brain. Medical patients like this for example because they can take their tokes one at a time until they've got to the point they need. Same thing applies to recreational smokers.

So when I hear about "how much stronger pot is these days" "Its a different drug!" I just laugh at the squares talking like that down in squaresville.

As I noted above, I'm coming off a particularly weak batch. Likely very close to THC levels back in the day. I would sometimes have to smoke two joints relatively close together in recent days. Rolled em bigger than usual too.

When I get my high-end stuff tonight, I'll need less than half the amount I was smoking of the weak batch.

 

[Dancing David]

Could we please get back to scientific evidence on this thread?

Well you quoted one small study with uncontrolled and confounding factors. Since then we have discussed how it effects memory, it has no known lethal dose, it stays in the blood about thirty days and that about all of the science. There is no evidence that MJ causes brain damage.

 

[GeeMack]

I'm a bit upset that this thread has turned into a discussion of legal-illegal arguments. My main idea on this Science board was to discuss the evidence about brain damage; [...]

And in all this discussion nobody has been able to bring in any substantial evidence to show that marijuana causes mental illness. Certainly nobody has offered any evidence to show that it should be a priority concern, particularly given all the other preventable things people choose to do which might cause injury or death to themselves or others. Got any?

[...] I think that I might have introduced legal issues unintentionally by pasting a post from the Social Issues board as my OP (where I opined about what colleges might do to curtail MJ use by students who were wasting private or public money, and possibly contributing to the drug-infused violence in Mexico).

And you ignored the reasoned comments that showed your position on those issues was somewhat irrational. You've made a moral judgment about what constitutes wasting money and you haven't been able to support your opinion with anything but your subjective moral judgment. Oh, and prohibition is the cause of the violence in Mexico.

Could we please get back to scientific evidence on this thread?

Got any?

 

[Halfcentaur]

Indeed Aquila, you seem to not be willing to discuss things further now that you've found so many people who not only disagree but have presented you with evidence to the contrary. What more do you expect to be said? You ignore everything that is presented in opposition to your stance. You won't even discuss hypothetically it seems, you've said nothing about the possibility that you are wrong. You seem to act as if cannabis users would not want to know if they were causing themselves brain damage.

 

[bit_pattern]

, but as we've mentioned several times, it was much milder then.

Do you realise you have a psychedelic plant in your avatar?

 

[Aquila]

Do you realise you have a psychedelic plant in your avatar?

It's not Morning Glory, it's Bower Vine, (they look similar) which as far as I know, does not have psychedelic properties.

Thank you for all your responses everyone, and attempts to allay my fears about super-weed causing mental illness. The scientific evidence seems inconclusive at this stage, which I think is due to the difficulty of isolating MJ use from other factors, such as pre-disposition and use of other drugs or alcohol.

So until science can devise a better method of reaching the truth, I think I will simply stick with my intuition, which informs me that there is a price to pay for disrupting the body's natural functions which have taken billions of years to evolve.

BTW, Halfcentaur; how do we know that Steve Jobs' pancreatic cancer wasn't caused by smoking MJ back in the 70s?

 

[dtugg]

BTW, Halfcentaur; how do we know that Steve Jobs' pancreatic cancer wasn't caused by smoking MJ back in the 70s?

How do we know that Steve Jobs' pancreatic cancer wasn't caused by his obsessive wearing of black turtlenecks?

 

[Halfcentaur]

It's not Morning Glory, it's Bower Vine, (they look similar) which as far as I know, does not have psychedelic properties.

Thank you for all your responses everyone, and attempts to allay my fears about super-weed causing mental illness. The scientific evidence seems inconclusive at this stage, which I think is due to the difficulty of isolating MJ use from other factors, such as pre-disposition and use of other drugs or alcohol.

So until science can devise a better method of reaching the truth, I think I will simply stick with my intuition, which informs me that there is a price to pay for disrupting the body's natural functions which have taken billions of years to evolve.

BTW, Halfcentaur; how do we know that Steve Jobs' pancreatic cancer wasn't caused by smoking MJ back in the 70s?

If you actually have to ask this question you need to learn about something known as a logical fallacy.

The studies have been going on for many, many decades. You seem to not be satisfied until the fears of your rudimentary intuition are demonstrated by the evidence. You would rather follow your "idea" than what seems probable through evidence. This is not rational.

Your idea of what's "natural" is woo, no different than those who fear vaccines and genetically modified foods. One could just as easily cite the illicit substances as natural because of the complex receptors in our brains that are perfectly designed to interact with psychoactive molecules and what some of them mimic.

I cannot blame you in some ways, given the misinformation we have been spoon fed the last 70 years about this subject. Are you familiar with the commission Nixon formed over this issue, the Shafer Commission, and what this presidential appointed commission's findings were on the prohibition of cannabis? Nixon's response was nothing but insane, and it's a tragedy that we're sitting here over 35 years later still having to debate this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Marihuana_and_Drug_Abuse

 

[GeeMack]

It's not Morning Glory, it's Bower Vine, [...]

No, it's not. It's a Morning Glory. It seems your qualifications to identify flowers are as lacking as your qualifications to apply critical thinking to your fears about marijuana...

So until science can devise a better method of reaching the truth, I think I will simply stick with my intuition, which informs me [...]

Your intuition informs you.

​

 

[Dancing David]

It's not Morning Glory, it's Bower Vine, (they look similar) which as far as I know, does not have psychedelic properties.

Uh sure, give me the genera and species name would you? It is not pandorea jasminoides, pandorea pandorana, nor the other top five called 'bower vine'. It sure looks like a convolvulaceae.

Thank you for all your responses everyone, and attempts to allay my fears about super-weed causing mental illness. The scientific evidence seems inconclusive at this stage, which I think is due to the difficulty of isolating MJ use from other factors, such as pre-disposition and use of other drugs or alcohol.

No it is not, whether you want to believe it or not there is no increase in mental illness due to marijuana use.
As has been noted repeatedly, there can be an increase in symptoms of mental illness due to marijuana use, but there is not 'inconclusive' data on this.
there are large studies of the demographics of mental illness and substance abuse.

It shows that people who use street drugs are likely to have an increase in symptoms of mental illness.
The levels of mental illness is substance abusers reflects self medication, not brain damage.
there are two substances that are shown to have links to brain damage.
One ALCOHOL has well established and documented effects of neurological toxicity, although it can be mitigated to some extent with diet.
Methamphetamine seems to have a possible relationship with extreme aggravation of psychiatric symptoms, although until we have data for a longer period the actual relationship will remain fuzzy.

So until science can devise a better method of reaching the truth, I think I will simply stick with my intuition, which informs me that there is a price to pay for disrupting the body's natural functions which have taken billions of years to evolve.

Nope the problem is you do not want to read the data of the extensive epidemiology on the subject.
Alcoholism abuse/dependence is co morbid in something like 75% or people with bipolar disorder, that is a fact. But epidemiologists DO NOT believe that alcohol causes bipolar disorder.
the same is true for marijuana, it is associated with a higher level of symptoms for people who have a mental illness, but it is not believed to cause a mental illness.
It does cause memory loss, which may last up to two years.

BTW, Halfcentaur; how do we know that Steve Jobs' pancreatic cancer wasn't caused by smoking MJ back in the 70s?

BTW, what correlation is there between marijuana use and pancreatic cancer?

Putting your fingers in your ears and singing 'lalalalala' does not change the data.

 

[bit_pattern]

BTW, Halfcentaur; how do we know that Steve Jobs' pancreatic cancer wasn't caused by smoking MJ back in the 70s?

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/37948

Cannabinoid action induces autophagy-mediated cell death through stimulation of ER stress in human glioma cells

María Salazar1,2, Arkaitz Carracedo1, Íñigo J. Salanueva1, Sonia Hernández-Tiedra1, Mar Lorente1,2, Ainara Egia1, Patricia Vázquez3, Cristina Blázquez1,2, Sofía Torres1, Stephane García4, Jonathan Nowak4, Gian María Fimia5, Mauro Piacentini5, Francesco Cecconi6, Pier Paolo Pandolfi7, Luis González-Feria8, Juan L. Iovanna4, Manuel Guzmán1,2, Patricia Boya3 and Guillermo Velasco1,2

First published April 1, 2009
Received for publication November 3, 2008, and accepted in revised form February 11, 2009.

Autophagy can promote cell survival or cell death, but the molecular basis underlying its dual role in cancer remains obscure. Here we demonstrate that Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the main active component of marijuana, induces human glioma cell death through stimulation of autophagy. Our data indicate that THC induced ceramide accumulation and eukaryotic translation initiation factor 2α (eIF2α) phosphorylation and thereby activated an ER stress response that promoted autophagy via tribbles homolog 3–dependent (TRB3-dependent) inhibition of the Akt/mammalian target of rapamycin complex 1 (mTORC1) axis. We also showed that autophagy is upstream of apoptosis in cannabinoid-induced human and mouse cancer cell death and that activation of this pathway was necessary for the antitumor action of cannabinoids in vivo. These findings describe a mechanism by which THC can promote the autophagic death of human and mouse cancer cells and provide evidence that cannabinoid administration may be an effective therapeutic strategy for targeting human cancers.

 

[Emet]

Cannabinoids Induce Apoptosis of Pancreatic Tumor Cells via Endoplasmic Reticulum Stress–Related Genes

Pancreatic adenocarcinomas are among the most malignant forms of cancer and, therefore, it is of especial interest to set new strategies aimed at improving the prognostic of this deadly disease. The present study was undertaken to investigate the action of cannabinoids, a new family of potential antitumoral agents, in pancreatic cancer. We show that cannabinoid receptors are expressed in human pancreatic tumor cell lines and tumor biopsies at much higher levels than in normal pancreatic tissue. Studies conducted with MiaPaCa2 and Panc1 cell lines showed that cannabinoid administration (a) induced apoptosis, (b) increased ceramide levels, and (c) up-regulated mRNA levels of the stress protein p8. These effects were prevented by blockade of the CB2 cannabinoid receptor or by pharmacologic inhibition of ceramide synthesis de novo. Knockdown experiments using selective small interfering RNAs showed the involvement of p8 via its downstream endoplasmic reticulum stress–related targets activating transcription factor 4 (ATF-4) and TRB3 in Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol–induced apoptosis. Cannabinoids also reduced the growth of tumor cells in two animal models of pancreatic cancer. In addition, cannabinoid treatment inhibited the spreading of pancreatic tumor cells. Moreover, cannabinoid administration selectively increased apoptosis and TRB3 expression in pancreatic tumor cells but not in normal tissue. In conclusion, results presented here show that cannabinoids lead to apoptosis of pancreatic tumor cells via a CB2 receptor and de novo synthesized ceramide-dependent up-regulation of p8 and the endoplasmic reticulum stress–related genes ATF-4 and TRB3. These findings may contribute to set the basis for a new therapeutic approach for the treatment of pancreatic cancer. (Cancer Res 2006; 66(13): 6748-55)

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/66/13/6748.abstract

 

[bit_pattern]

Oh. Snap!

 

[Aquila]

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/37948 and Emet:
Cannabinoids Induce Apoptosis of Pancreatic Tumor Cells via Endoplasmic Reticulum Stress–Related Genes

Pancreatic adenocarcinomas are among the most malignant forms of cancer and, therefore, it is of especial interest to set new strategies aimed at improving the prognostic of this deadly disease. The present study was undertaken to investigate the action of cannabinoids, a new family of potential antitumoral agents, in pancreatic cancer. We show that cannabinoid receptors are expressed in human pancreatic tumor cell lines and tumor biopsies at much higher levels than in normal pancreatic tissue. Studies conducted with MiaPaCa2 and Panc1 cell lines showed that cannabinoid administration (a) induced apoptosis, (b) increased ceramide levels, and (c) up-regulated mRNA levels of the stress protein p8. These effects were prevented by blockade of the CB2 cannabinoid receptor or by pharmacologic inhibition of ceramide synthesis de novo. Knockdown experiments using selective small interfering RNAs showed the involvement of p8 via its downstream endoplasmic reticulum stress–related targets activating transcription factor 4 (ATF-4) and TRB3 in Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol–induced apoptosis. Cannabinoids also reduced the growth of tumor cells in two animal models of pancreatic cancer. In addition, cannabinoid treatment inhibited the spreading of pancreatic tumor cells. Moreover, cannabinoid administration selectively increased apoptosis and TRB3 expression in pancreatic tumor cells but not in normal tissue. In conclusion, results presented here show that cannabinoids lead to apoptosis of pancreatic tumor cells via a CB2 receptor and de novo synthesized ceramide-dependent up-regulation of p8 and the endoplasmic reticulum stress–related genes ATF-4 and TRB3. These findings may contribute to set the basis for a new therapeutic approach for the treatment of pancreatic cancer. (Cancer Res 2006; 66(13): 6748-55)

So, if cannabis inhibits the growth of pancreatic cancer calls, what do you think happened to Steve Jobs' pancreas when he stopped smoking it?

I'm beginning to think that science, useful as it is, is beginning to fall behind intuition when it comes to providing useful information that people can use to stay healthy. Personally, I combine my basic knowledge of science (A-level Biology, Chemistry and Physics) with observation of the natural world, and also my "gut feeling" - I do not regard this as "woo". I think that the principle of balance, for example, is fundamental in all nature and see the human body as rather like a see-saw. I think that cells "remember" what is done to them and have "withdrawal symptoms" if we take away what they get used to. This artistic, imaginary way of looking at life may sound irrational, but I don't care - it's helped me. Maybe science will prove these intuitional thoughts to be true one day.


The Bower Vine pictured in my avatar was bought from Home Depot a few years ago, clearly labelled, and is now growing in my garden. It is a perennial, as opposed to Morning Glory which is an annual plant, dying off in the winter.

 

[Dancing David]

The Bower Vine pictured in my avatar was bought from Home Depot a few years ago, clearly labelled, and is now growing in my garden. It is a perennial, as opposed to Morning Glory which is an annual plant, dying off in the winter.

Which part of CA do you live in, do you get frosts?

Seriously, as someone who has done sample anaylsis of flowers, leaves and stems for various projects, your flower does not match any of the first seven pages on images on google for bower vine.

It sure looks like a convolvulaceae, do you have pictures of the leavs? Could you describe its habit of growth or have a picture from the side of the flower.

Does it have oblate leave growing opposite, see here:
http://www.desert-tropicals.com/Plants/Bignoniaceae/Pandorea_jasminoides.html

It is not
Pandorea pandorana (wonga vine)

Nor is it clematis or trumpet vine, so whatever Home Depot had on the label is not a 'bower vine'.

They do sell Pandorea jasminoides.

Yours does look like this
http://www.tiuli.com/flowers/havalval_kafani.JPG

but without the leaves it is hard to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipomoea_indica

is a tender perrenial as I believe many of the genera/family convolvulaceae

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/ww0804.htm#intro