Marijuana and Mental Illness

[Eddie Dane]

As to the argument about people having the right to decide what they do with their own bodies, I understand it and disagree with it, but it's too fundamental an issue to debate fruitfully about.

Great.

We, the authorities hereby decree that you shall eat nothing but tofu and granola.

We feel that it is important that you develop some sports activity and musical abilities. The commission has decided you shall therefor play ping-pong three times a week and take accordion lessons twice a week.

To broaden your sexual horizons, we have decided that you will be gay (bottom).

Next month you'll be required to smoke cigars.

 

[BenBurch]

Great.

We, the authorities hereby decree that you shall eat nothing but tofu and granola.

We feel that it is important that you develop some sports activity and musical abilities. The commission has decided you shall therefor play ping-pong three times a week and take accordion lessons twice a week.

To broaden your sexual horizons, we have decided that you will be gay (bottom).

Next month you'll be required to smoke cigars.

Two Words;

Cultural Revolution.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Two Words;

Cultural Revolution.

Indeed.

 

[Mirrorglass]

Great.

We, the authorities hereby decree that you shall eat nothing but tofu and granola.

We feel that it is important that you develop some sports activity and musical abilities. The commission has decided you shall therefor play ping-pong three times a week and take accordion lessons twice a week.

To broaden your sexual horizons, we have decided that you will be gay (bottom).

Next month you'll be required to smoke cigars.

Yes, this is what I was referring to with the 'impossible to debate fruitfully' bit.

 

[dtugg]

Yes, this is what I was referring to with the 'impossible to debate fruitfully' bit.

By that, you mean it is impossible for you to defend your ridiculous opinions using reason, yes?

 

[Praktik]

To me this is all about mental freedom and I thank Mirrorglass for being concerned about my lifestyle and my health - and then also thank him for staying TFO of my freedom to do what I want with my body and mind.

All these pseudo-scientific arguments about harm to me are window-dressing and late-additions to a policy that was enacted amid a climate of racial and moral hysteria. They are late-coming arguments dressed upon a withering core of righteous morality - the legacy of which is the real reason marijuana is still illegal.

People decide to take a moral position on drug use and then rationalize it through "science" - unfortunately suckering in well-meaning people like Mirrorglass who then perpetuate those same arguments as the Prohibition facade slowly crumbles in the western world.

but to me, any argument over this data or that data is really beside the point. To be honest I don't care about the health impacts - besides, it should be amazingly clear to anybody looking at the evidence honestly that when compared to almost all other recreational drugs, marijuana is much safer - and even safer than legal drugs.

But let's leave that all aside, cause at root the real issue here is one of mental freedom. And I will continue to exercise that freedom how I see fit - I just hope one day potential legal problems from that exercise of my freedom are lifted, and that people like Mirrorglass can worry about my health without reference to the law. I may even decide to exercise it with far more harmful substances.

Thats my right, self-granted and with no official support.

But thats the way I live and will always live.

 

[dtugg]

To me this is all about mental freedom and I thank Mirrorglass for being concerned about my lifestyle and my health - and then also thank him for staying TFO of my freedom to do what I want with my body and mind.

All these pseudo-scientific arguments about harm to me are window-dressing and late-additions to a policy that was enacted amid a climate of racial and moral hysteria. They are late-coming arguments dressed upon a withering core of righteous morality - the legacy of which is the real reason marijuana is still illegal.

People decide to take a moral position on drug use and then rationalize it through "science" - unfortunately suckering in well-meaning people like Mirrorglass who then perpetuate those same arguments as the Prohibition facade slowly crumbles in the western world.

but to me, any argument over this data or that data is really beside the point. To be honest I don't care about the health impacts - besides, it should be amazingly clear to anybody looking at the evidence honestly that when compared to almost all other recreational drugs, marijuana is much safer - and even safer than legal drugs.

But let's leave that all aside, cause at root the real issue here is one of mental freedom. And I will continue to exercise that freedom how I see fit - I just hope one day potential legal problems from that exercise of my freedom are lifted, and that people like Mirrorglass can worry about my health without reference to the law. I may even decide to exercise it with far more harmful substances.

Thats my right, self-granted and with no official support.

But thats the way I live and will always live.

Well said.

 

[Mirrorglass]

By that, you mean it is impossible for you to defend your ridiculous opinions using reason, yes?

I mean I've yet to talk to a drug user who doesn't turn to insults when the subject comes up.

 

[dtugg]

I mean I've yet to talk to a drug user who doesn't turn to insults when the subject comes up.

Where is the insult? Or perhaps you take it as a personal insult when your opinions are called for what they are.

Are you ever going to explain your reasoning behind the idea that the state should have more control over each individual person's body than that person? No, of course you won't. Because you can't.

 

[Mirrorglass]

Where is the insult? Or perhaps you take it as a personal insult when your opinions are called for what they are.

Are you ever going to explain your reasoning behind the idea that the state should have more control over each individual person's body than that person? No, of course you won't.

Look, tugg, we've been down this road before. I explain my reasoning, you call it stupid. I explain some more, you say it doesn't matter, since you have the right to do whatever you want. I say I disagree, you call it stupid and ask for evidence of drugs being harmful. I provide some, you say there was violence during the prohibition. I point out something about the statistics, you say it's stupid, and doesn't matter anyway since you have the right to do whatever you want. Repeat ad infinitum.

There's simply no point in discussing the differences in our moral philosophy; you are never going to seriously consider a moral system that limits personal rights for the common good, and you only want to hear me defend it so you could point out how stupid it is. That's why I originally said the subject is too fundamental to fruitfully debate. I've simply never met a drug user who is willing to examine their moral base; it's always just bald assertion and insults.

So we'll agree we disagree, you will consider me stupid and I will consider you mule-headed. No need to waste pages on it.

 

[dtugg]

I don't recall you giving any reasoning whatsoever other than it could be harmful (which I do not dispute although it is grossly exaggerated for most of them). However there are many many things which are far more likely to cause harm than marijuana use which are still legal. And as far as I am aware you are not campaigning to make them illegal. Hence your position is not only stupid, immoral, but also inconsistent.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I am a "drug user", legal and illegal, and I never insulted you Mirroglass. I don't recall bald assertions either. I accept that I won't change your mind, and I am not going to continue trying. I find it strange that you seem to not appreciate why it is you find such hostile behavior from people you are implying should be criminals based on what they feel is not criminal. I find your objections inconsistent as well, but I seek to understand and empathize with why you feel this way.

 

[bit_pattern]

Mirrorglass - What do you think is more detrimental to one's health and lifestyle: smoking a bit of reefer occasionally, perhaps getting a little paranoid after giggling for 20 minutes, maybe indulging in a bit of gardening in one's backyard to supply one's needs without patronising criminal gangs; or being locked down in a Federal Penitentiary, having one's employment prospects effectively severed, losing things like voting privileges, all for simply growing a plant that nature provided us with?

Seriously?

Can you honestly say that you think smoking weed is worse for a person than being prosecuted and punished for smoking weed?

 

[bit_pattern]

I mean I've yet to talk to a drug user who doesn't turn to insults when the subject comes up.

Being told your ideas are ridiculous isn't an insult. Eddie Dane made a very good point and you chose to dismiss by saying he wasn't "debating fruitfully", which is easily as "insulting" as saying your ideas are ridiculous.

 

[Dancing David]

I mean I've yet to talk to a drug user who doesn't turn to insults when the subject comes up.

And I insulted you when?

Get over yourself, this is the JREF not the sunday school playground.

 

[Dancing David]

There's simply no point in discussing the differences in our moral philosophy; you are never going to seriously consider a moral system that limits personal rights for the common good, and you only want to hear me defend it so you could point out how stupid it is.

Maybe you haven't shown the benefit to the common good and just put a [insert some lacking reason] there, what 'greater good' comes from the prohibition on mj?

It does less damage than many commonly available drugs. (It does not cause cirrhosis of the liver)
It is less lethal than many OTC drugs. (MJ has no known lethal dose.)
It is less addictive that nicotine or alcohol.

Compared to pescription drug abuse, mj use is a small fraction.

 

[ThunderChunky]

I mean I've yet to talk to a drug user who doesn't turn to insults when the subject comes up.

I have yet to see an evidence based argument from you in this thread.

 

[FattyCatty]

Actually, cannabis does cause some issues; addiction and earlier onset of several mental illnesses are well documented, and some others are suspected with too little data to make a final judgment.

Marijuana is much less addictive than many other legal substances. The correlations with mental illnesses are best described as overstated--not well documented (see one of my previous posts for the peer-reviewed reference). There are also other activities associated with mental illness that remain perfectly legal (like living in a city)... Try again please.

Thank you, ThunderChunky. And because anecdotes seem to be the theme of this thread, I'll add my personal experience:

In my sophomore year in college, I first showed the symptoms of and was diagnosed with depression. My freshman year I had begun using marijuana. Of course, at the same time, I started using coffee, cigarettes, and alcohol. So did any or all of these substances cause my depression? I have always assumed that none of them had any relation to the chemical imbalance in my brain; none of my doctors in the years since has ever suggested otherwise.​

<snip>
If the cause of depression is a chemical imbalance, the cure is nutrition, - B vitamins are said to be good for the nervous system (plus good life style, more sleep and removal of stress, which all effect health) not a temporary fix of marijuana.

(My emphasis) I disagree with your statement and also find it offensive. My depression is not caused by a "bad" lifestyle, it is caused by a malfunction (chemical imbalance) in my brain. You make it sound like I chose depression by making poor choices in my life.

<snip>
The problem is that it's not a matter of 'true' and 'fake' addiction. It's a scale, a matter of how addictive a substance is. Cannabis is not the most addictive substance out there, but it's addictive enough to cause a lot of trouble.

If you still doubt me, I'll find the cites tomorrow.

(My emphasis) I never thought of marijuana as very addictive. I certainly had no problem stopping, unlike quitting cigarettes, which took years of trying. I'd like to see your cites, please.

I don't think you have done your actual research, the data on onset of schizophrenia is indicative, not really strong.(How does ita ccount for self selection, under reporting of symptoms and age of onset?)
The addictive profile for mj is very low compared to other SoA.

(My emphasis) That's what I thought.

Mirrorglass - What do you think is more detrimental to one's health and lifestyle: smoking a bit of reefer occasionally, perhaps getting a little paranoid after giggling for 20 minutes, maybe indulging in a bit of gardening in one's backyard to supply one's needs without patronising criminal gangs; or being locked down in a Federal Penitentiary, having one's employment prospects effectively severed, losing things like voting privileges, all for simply growing a plant that nature provided us with?

Seriously?

Can you honestly say that you think smoking weed is worse for a person than being prosecuted and punished for smoking weed?

I strongly agree with this. I believe legalization in the U.S. would be a good thing, for many of the reasons given in this thread.

Asking, not saying. In terms of practicality, wouldn't decriminalization result in a net gain in income for the government? Costs of law enforcement agencies, courts, and prisons go down; taxes bring in revenue.

Many people would answer a simple 'yes'. The truth is we don't really know. At the moment, it does seem like legalizing cannabis would produce a net gain, but it's impossible to predict the long-term effects. For harder drugs, it's even more uncertain.

Who knows, maybe it would even help the economy (especially in California).

 

[Mirrorglass]

I don't recall you giving any reasoning whatsoever other than it could be harmful (which I do not dispute although it is grossly exaggerated for most of them). However there are many many things which are far more likely to cause harm than marijuana use which are still legal. And as far as I am aware you are not campaigning to make them illegal. Hence your position is not only stupid, immoral, but also inconsistent.

I assume you're referring to things such as skydiving and prozac? The first I don't believe causes any harm to anyone but yourself, and I am against liberal use of the second. Was there some other 'thing' I should be against before I'm allowed to consider whether cannabis should be legal?

And if you truly don't recall.. sigh. Well, here goes. I believe that 'I have the right to do whatever I want with my own body' doesn't extend to deliberately harming oneself, and it definitely doesn't extend to smuggling addictive and otherwise harmful substances to the country.

I am a "drug user", legal and illegal, and I never insulted you Mirroglass. I don't recall bald assertions either. I accept that I won't change your mind, and I am not going to continue trying. I find it strange that you seem to not appreciate why it is you find such hostile behavior from people you are implying should be criminals based on what they feel is not criminal. I find your objections inconsistent as well, but I seek to understand and empathize with why you feel this way.

Admittedly, you didn't take the tone that annoys me. I apologize for my generalization.

However, I don't agree that people should act hostile just because someone disputes their opinion. I don't act hostile towards people who tell me I'm going to hell, that Americans are simply better than other nations, that all drugs should be legal. Why is the other side of the last argument so inseparable from emotion?

I didn't want to get into this bog again, but I suppose I'll have to. I'll try and explain my position more clearly later tonight.

 

[Halfcentaur]

Of course using these substances is a choice, but we're still threatened with having our lives and reputations destroyed because of what we feel is a baseless prohibition, a prohibition that you seem to be advocating.

While you may or may not agree with the severity of the current system and it's consequences, you are associated with a force that threatens those who represent "the other side of the argument" with personal ruination. I can see how this would cause a bit more biased of a response than the individuals in your examples.