Man, Alec Jones Is Not Even Hiding It..

[Tin Foil Timothy]

If the area under Israeli control has shrunk since 1967 then you cannot suggest, as you appear to be doing, that Israel is continually expanding. You are deliberately misrepresenting the truth in the hope nobody will question it. Simply repeating this lie does not make it true.

You were the one who thought Israel was 100 years old and that the UN Created Israel. And now you are saying that it's a lie that Israel has expanded since the UN partition plan?

With all respect can I suggest you actually research the subject before diving into a debate. You don't seem very educated on it.

It is quite laughable to claim that the above PROVES what Israel is up to! Compare and contrast this with the aims of Hamas for example, who's charter officially calls for the destruction of Israel.
Yet, you ignore official policies aimed towards the destruction of Israel, and instead focus on perceptions about Israel from a 60 year old report as proof of their evil intent! Are you someone who regularly trusts the CIA btw???

So two wrongs make a right do they? This seems to be a common feature with transparent Israel apologists like yourself. Someone criticizes the actions of Israel and there's retorts of "Well what about xxxxx ?"

Earlier in one of the threads YOU were condemning me for criticizing Israel on the basis that I didn't condemn any injustices of the India-Pakistan partition. I suppose with Hamas you're closer to the issues

Your motivations are not rooted in a quest for the truth.

Huh? A "quest for the truth?" This isn't a conspiracy theory. This is about the Israel/Palestinian problem.

I also notice I seem to be a focal point for your attentions on this forum. The vast majority of your posts are in reply to mine. Why is that? You even PMed me when I first arrived here with some mistaken notion that I was some buddy of yours. I don't think so. You seem very odd.

You also seem reticent to show your own views on the subject, while mostother posters have no problem with this. So in order to understand your position more clearly I will repeat the questions I asked you previously. I noticed you failed to answer them the first time

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement not for ti's involvement in creating Israel per se, but for it's involvement in creating Israel at the expense of the indigenous population?

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement/Israel Lobby for it's power in influencing America's Middle East foreign policy to teh extent where it's probably not in America's best interests?

Do you think the collective punishment of the Palestinians is fair?

 

[Doctor Evil]

T

And yes I do believe that Israel's agenda is expansionism....

You want content? Here's content.

from article

By March 1949, a classified CIA report declared Palestine was a 'Long Range Disaster'. The Agency report read in part:

'The establishment of the State of Israel by force, with intimidation of the Arab governments by the US and USSR, with the cutting off of the British arms and ammunition (the Arabs only source of supply), with ample sources for Israel of munitions and finance, the Israeli battle victory is complete, but it has solved nothing.

If boundaries to an Israeli State, any boundaries, had been set and guaranteed by the Great Powers, peace might return to the area. On the contrary, we have actually a victorious state which is limited to no frontiers and which is determined that no narrow limits shall be set. The Near East is faced with the almost certain prospect of a profound and growing disturbance by Israel which may last for decades... ...Instead of restoring the boundaries of the province of Judea as they were in 70 A.D., the Israeli leaders now state freely though usually unofficially, their demand for an ever expanding empire. Their present possessions are regarded by them as only a beachhead into the Arab and Muslim World -- a large part of which they plan to exploit. They are not prepared to live off what the land will yield as the Arabs do... ...Alone among the Great Powers, Britain has been working on a plan to restore a balance between the forces in Palestine, but it already appears that this plan is doomed to fail. Zionist pressure in the USA, Anglophobia in Iraq and Egypt, and above all, Russia's determination to prolong chaos in the Near East and to complete the discrediting of British and American Diplomacy, combine to work against the policy of the British Government and its collaborators --King Abdulla of Trans-Jordan and the Prime Minister of Iraq, Nuri al Said.


See! Although not made public back then, the CIA could see what Israel was and still is up to, which this now declassified document proves.

This expansionist policy is being implemented by both the slow eroding of the west bank and the ghettoisation of the people of Gaza ( Who only in the last few days have once again had food denied them )

What amazes me is that if any other country had acted the way Israel has and continues to do, then there would be international outcry. Perhaps even military intervention.

But no, Israel is protected by it's lobby in the US which encourages cries of "anti-semitism!" and "Why do you always pick on Israel?" every time it's behavior is criticized.


So tell me this.... Why is Israel allowed to get away with behavior that other countries can't?

Oh, the wonders of google and wikipedia research. You did not bother to actually read the paper you cite, did you? Unfortunately for you, I did.

The document is an 8 pages report, which is composed of a summary of a collection of interviews. It can not be described as an intelligence evaluation by any means.

In fact, I do not believe the source of information belong to the CIA. It is probably some diplomat, which may be either a US citizen, or foreign. Another option is that it is a CIA operative. How do I know that? As it happens, the first page contain subtle hints. For instance, the is the title 'Acquired by source:' with the identity source blacked out. Similarly, there is a heading with 'place acquired:'. Another hit is the heading "THIS IS UNEVALUATED INFORMATION" which appear before the content.

What this means you may ask? This means that the content does not constitute any estimates of the CIA. None!

On to the content. It includes 4 pages summary, and then some direct citations from sources, whose identity is not revealed. I will be back to the direct quotes later, but first, let us examine the summary, which includes the parts you cited.

From the paragraph you cited:

Instead of restoring the boundaries of the Province of Judea as ther were now freely state, though usually unofficially, their demand to an ever expanding empire.

While we do not know who complied this information, we already know one thing about him, namely that he had no clue. The borders of Judea?? Did he believed that anyone actually knew exactly what these were. Moreover, why Judea, why not one of the ancient Isrealite kingdoms?


Weirdly, some paragraphs you have cited are not reproduced in full. Here is one of them:

The index of cost of living in Israel has risen to 500% of what it was in that area from 1933 to 1939. Having driven out the Arabs from thier homes Israel lacks cheap labor and without a very large per capita subsidy the economy of the state would soon collapse. This Israeli government intends to prevent this by promising to continue to secure funds from Zionsts and other sympathizers abroad by large loans, and as soon as possible, by the exploitation of the Arab hinterland, especially the agriculture and industries of Syria and Iraq.

it seems that whoever wrote this believed that Israel must invade Syria and Iraq to save its economy. That is weird, 60 years have passed, and I think I would have noticed if that have ever happened.

Later in the document:

Although intelligent leaders have managed to hold Syria together, it is believed by some foreign diplomats and many Arab leaders that Syria, as a nation will break up in two or three years ...

More accurate predictions. Lovely.

From the part concerning Russia's role:

The USSR will help Israel expand until the Arab Governments as well as Britain and American policies are completely discredited. The Russians will then decide whether to make a puppet of the Zionists or of the Arabs ...

Now we go to the direct citations from the interviews. I have decided to cite an amusing one:

P. "The U.S. government has lost both Israel and the Arabs. Israel is already a tool of Russia. The Arabs can never cooperate with Russia, but they have lost all faith in the U.S. ...

Really.

I think I had enough of copying. Lets get to the claim that "the Israeli leaders now state freely though usually unofficially, their demand for an ever expanding empire."
Which leaders have said that?? To whom? This is not specified in the report.

It gets worse. To the best of my judgment the leading part of the paper is composed of various interviews. Direct quotes from the same interviews are given in the second part. We are not supplied with the list of interviewees. However, after reading all the direct citations, it is clear to me that none of these interviewees is an Israeli. In fact, most of them are Arabs. As a result, it is likely that the said opinion is in fact the opinion of one of the Arab leaders. Alternatively, it may be an opinion of a diplomat. It is did not came directly from any Israeli leader. Anyway, this claim never appear in this part of the document.

To summarize, the document is not a CIA evaluation of intelligence, but rather a collection of information prior to evaluation. It may be the opinion of one diplomat, or source, but it can not be presented as the opinion of the CIA.

The claim that Israeli leaders want an 'ever ending expansion' does not include any detail and is not likely to have been obtained directly from any Israeli leader. None of the information in this document seem to have come from Israeli sources.

In addition, the paper contains weird opinions and predictions, such as the reference to ancient Judea, and the prediction that Israel would have to Invade Syria and Iraq for economic purposes.

Before concluding, let me ask you a question. Let us assume that you were right and these shifty Zionist leaders would only want never ending expansion. Can you tell me why would they want that? How would you stop them? Would a change of government do? How do you think they intended to achieve this? Israel is small and the Arab world is big. If they would have wanted to do that, shouldn't they have started in 1949-1950, when the Arab world was in disarray?
(Answer, if that was their goal, then that was the time. However, they were instead busy settling huge number of Jewish refugees. Unlike your weird conspiracy theories, the early leaders of Isreal had other things to worry about.)

That is enough. I am tired of this. Moreover, I fully expect that you will ignore most of my point, and instead choose to google some other factoid which fits you preconceived bias. If this is the case, do not expect me to respond.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

In fact, I do not believe the source of information belong to the CIA. It is probably some diplomat, which may be either a US citizen, or foreign. Another option is that it is a CIA operative. How do I know that? As it happens, the first page contain subtle hints. For instance, the is the title 'Acquired by source:' with the identity source blacked out. Similarly, there is a heading with 'place acquired:'. Another hit is the heading "THIS IS UNEVALUATED INFORMATION" which appear before the content.

What this means you may ask? This means that the content does not constitute any estimates of the CIA. None!

Actually it means that you have made assumptions to fit YOUR pre-concieved bias.

That is enough. I am tired of this. Moreover, I fully expect that you will ignore most of my point, and instead choose to google some other factoid which fits you preconceived bias. If this is the case, do not expect me to respond.

Well you've no other recourse that google, wikipedia and associated webpages have you? I love it when arguments mocking Internet Research are made using Internet research. The joys of the Forum warrior.

So Israel isn't embarked upon expansionism because it hasn't invaded the whole of the Middle East yet? Now there's a sensible argument if I ever heard one.

The following statement of yours made me laugh out loud..

Israel is small and the Arab world is big.

Not only has Israel a huge military equipped with all the modern weapons it also the only nuclear power in the region. And that's without the unconditional military support of the USA the largest military force by far in the whole world.

It's pure comedy to suggest that Israel is a poor tiny country overshadowed by this big bad Arab threat. In 2006 Israel bombed the crap out of the whole of Lebanon on the pretext of 2 kidnapped soldiers by a militia group hezbollah who resided in the southern part of Lebanon. I hardly think the decimation of a neighboring country is the actions of a nation dedicated to peace.

Any Arab/Persian threat to Israel is slowly being crushed. The US has crushed Iraq and taken over, and now Israel is threatening to attack Iran on the propaganda of a "nuclear threat" and the cheap mis-translation of the rhetoric of Ahmadinejad, an Iranian president who hasn't even got any practical power in Iran anyway.

You wasted your time on that long post trying to discredit the CIA report. It only backed up what any unbiased person can see anyway.

Now does Israel want to expand beyond the boundaries the British Mandate of Palestine? Who knows? I'm sure there some Zionist Fundamentalists who would like to. Just as there are islamic fundamentalists who want to spread Islam to the 4 corners.

But we don't need to move outside the mandate boundaries to see the general expansionism.

The UN partition plan formed the basis of the creation of the state of Israel. your rhetoric about the area of land controlled by israel shrinking since 1967 is pure marketing spin. Sinai is a huge area compared to Israel's initial allocation, so of course giving that back to it's rightful owners is going to shrink the land controlled by Israel.

What's important is the initial land allocated to Israel in 1948 and what Israel considers it owns in 2008.

And since then israel has swallowed up the northern Palestinian region. reduce the size of Gaza by at least a half, commandeered a whole 3rd of the west bank as Israeli Military land, built settlements on a huge amount of the rest, taken a triangle of the west bank west of Jerusalem, and worse built 30 foot high concrete walls treating the Palestinians like zoo animals.

Oh and Jerusalem! Never mind it being designated an internationally controlled zone by the UN. Israel has captured half of it and built it's seat of power, the Knesset and Israeli supreme court buildings there. All illegally.

And talking of the UN. The UN, which I appreciate has as much power as a 1 volt battery, has, over the years, passed over a 100 resolutions condemning Israel. All of which have been totally ignored.

The UN are currently condemning Israel for it's barbaric treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza. Walling up over 1 million people in Gaza and then withholding their food supplies is NOT the behavior of a civilized country. it's disgusting behavior!!

And people are defending all this? Any other country acting like this would attract international outcry.

So don't try and paint Israel as some nice little innocent democratic country.

If it didn't have the backing of the powerful Israeli lobby in the US it would be viewed alongside North Korea, Burma, Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, Saudi, etc as one of the more nasty regimes in the world.

Oh and before you ask.... I don't hold any of this against the ordinary Israeli citizen anymore than I hold the ordinary American citizen for the slaughter in Iraq. This is the actions of the ruling powers.

Ordinary people, whatever group they belong to are decent hospitable people.

 

[Doctor Evil]

Actually it means that you have made assumptions to fit YOUR pre-concieved bias.


Well you've no other recourse that google, wikipedia and associated webpages have you? I love it when arguments mocking Internet Research are made using Internet research. The joys of the Forum warrior.

In fact, I have bothered and located a copy of the actual document, rather than used google to find some secondary source.

A cursory look at the document is sufficient to know that it is not an intelligence evaluation of the CIA. It is some compilation of interviews whose information may not be reliable. A closer look shows that the sources are not from the Israeli side, and therefore the claims about something that unspecified Israeli leaders said can not be substantiated.

Whether the source is an CIA employee or not does not really matter. The crucial point is that the information presented has not arrived from the Israeli side, but more likely from people which may had an interest in presenting biased claims. The paper include other claims ans future predictions which are bizarre.

You ignored all that, and instead have started a political rant full of slogans. Substance free post, again.

That's it. Having a discussion with you is as appealing as cleaning toilets in a large army base. It is dirty. It stinks. And it seems to never end. Bye.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

In fact, I have bothered and located a copy of the actual document, rather than used google to find some secondary source.

A cursory look at the document is sufficient to know that it is not an intelligence evaluation of the CIA. It is some compilation of interviews whose information may not be reliable. A closer look shows that the sources are not from the Israeli side, and therefore the claims about something that unspecified Israeli leaders said can not be substantiated.

You say - "A closer look shows that the sources are not from the Israeli side" - And that automatically negates the credibility? I don't think it requires much sensibility to understand that the Israeli establishment is not going to admit it's own desire for expansion. Surely you can't expect that argument to hold water?

Even though no sane person is going to expect a side to incriminate itself you make the point a second time ....

Whether the source is an CIA employee or not does not really matter. The crucial point is that the information presented has not arrived from the Israeli side, but more likely from people which may had an interest in presenting biased claims. The paper include other claims ans future predictions which are bizarre.

You ignored all that, and instead have started a political rant full of slogans. Substance free post, again.

Do you really expect anyone on this forum to believe that a document citing evidence of an Israeli desire of expansionism is null and void because the Israel establishment themselves have not admitted to it?


And further I think it's an insult to the way the Palestinians have been treated to say my previous post is substance free.

I think that document makes you feel uncomfortable. all you can say is it "may not be reliable"

Another of your arguments against the document rest of upon the fact Israel has not invaded the whole region. But that's not the point. The document is no proof in itself, but it does support the very real expansionism that continues to this day. Your spin of Israel being smaller today than in 1967 shows your bias. At least you aren't claiming It's a lie that israel is today larger than the 1948 borders like the poster Trojan_Jockey.

The argument that Israel itself has not criticized itself therefore the criticism is not valid is beyond credibility. Stundie award anyone?

That's it. Having a discussion with you is as appealing as cleaning toilets in a large army base. It is dirty. It stinks. And it seems to never end. Bye.

Yes the truth isn't palatable is it? I can understand why it isn't appealing. How awful to admit the Israeli expansionism and collective punishment of the Palestinians.

My previous post wasn't substance free at all was it? it was aery real description of how it is. And you know it.

 

[Dubbi]

He might be an anti-semite but his right about the zionists. I haven"t heard any jew talking about how evil Stalin was. Always Hitler this and Hitler that. Day after day. My grandfather lost his home in Karelia after WW2 and got nothing. Zionist and jews got Israel after 1948? Where is the justice in that? You see karelians were humiliated in Finland. I forget it. Every american thinks that jews are better than those karelians or chechens or other people who were victims of Stalin and got nothing afte WW2 but zionists got their own country.

Hitler was very-very-VERY evil.
Happy?

Moon, you're normally fairly rational. However, here you're bordering on Antisemitism.

I've never heard a Karelian complain about Hitler. Do you know what this means? Precisely nothing.

As a side point, and this shouldn't even be relevant: if you haven't heard a Jew complain about Stalin - it's either out of willful ignorance or a statistical anomaly. Stalin was a world-class anti-Semite. One of his famous pogroms is commemorated at a near-by shul every summer.

 

[Trojan_Jockey]

You were the one who thought Israel was 100 years old and that the UN Created Israel.

With all respect, that was obviously a mistype. I clearly meant Israel has existed for LESS than 100 years. It seems pretty desperate to repeatedly claim that I ACTUALLY think Israel was created 100 years ago considering that in NO other post before or since have I ever suggested that Israel was created at any time except 1948.

And now you are saying that it's a lie that Israel has expanded since the UN partition plan?

With all respect can I suggest you actually research the subject before diving into a debate. You don't seem very educated on it.

With all respect again, you throw out straw men more often than you incorrectly use the term. Tell me where I say that Israel has not expanded since the UN partition plan please. PLEASE.

Anyway, of more substance, perhaps you could tell us who DID partition Palestine and create the Jewish state of Israel if it wasn't the UN?

By the way, try and answer the questions I've put, it does help in a debate.

So two wrongs make a right do they? This seems to be a common feature with transparent Israel apologists like yourself. Someone criticizes the actions of Israel and there's retorts of "Well what about xxxxx ?"

Earlier in one of the threads YOU were condemning me for criticizing Israel on the basis that I didn't condemn any injustices of the India-Pakistan partition. I suppose with Hamas you're closer to the issues.

What do you mean TWO WRONGS?? You have presented no substantial evidence that Israel has a policy of expansion, and I have presented you with an unquestionable written policy of Hamas which declares their goal as the destruction of Israel. yet you equate these two pieces of evidence of equally wrong??

You'd be hard pushed to defend your selective and deliberative bias here, but please try.

Huh? A "quest for the truth?" This isn't a conspiracy theory. This is about the Israel/Palestinian problem.

I also notice I seem to be a focal point for your attentions on this forum. The vast majority of your posts are in reply to mine. Why is that? You even PMed me when I first arrived here with some mistaken notion that I was some buddy of yours. I don't think so. You seem very odd.

You also seem reticent to show your own views on the subject, while mostother posters have no problem with this. So in order to understand your position more clearly I will repeat the questions I asked you previously. I noticed you failed to answer them the first time

lets not make this a personal battle, Smeggypants. I could always post a link to your forum where they can read the identical posts, and very same points made time and time again using the same phrases and the same sources, as those you've made here. Only difference is you use the guise of Smeggypants. You KNOW I KNOW who you are. Don't make me embarrass you. I mean, I haven't asked you about your opinion on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion yet, so I've done you a favour so far!

Anyway, back to your questions.

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement not for ti's involvement in creating Israel per se, but for it's involvement in creating Israel at the expense of the indigenous population?

No.

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement/Israel Lobby for it's power in influencing America's Middle East foreign policy to teh extent where it's probably not in America's best interests?

No, but your criticisism of "Zionist" power and influence is not about lobby groups.

Do you think the collective punishment of the Palestinians is fair?

No.

By the way, the term is antisemitic, not anti-semitical, which does not exist. I thought you would know that!

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

lets not make this a personal battle, Smeggypants. I could always post a link to your forum where they can read the identical posts, and very same points made time and time again using the same phrases and the same sources, as those you've made here. Only difference is you use the guise of Smeggypants. You KNOW I KNOW who you are. Don't make me embarrass you. I mean, I haven't asked you about your opinion on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion yet, so I've done you a favour so far!
.....

I've told you twice already that I am not your buddy 'Smeggypants'

 

[funk de fino]

The OP is about Alex Jones use of the term Zionist as being bigotry.

Read his site, it is plainly true. With the advent of Obama I suspect it will replace all NWO and neo-con references in future.

It is not wrong to criticize zionists but it is wrong to think that Alex Jones even understands what he is saying when he uses it.

IMO

 

[Trojan_Jockey]

I've told you twice already that I am not your buddy 'Smeggypants'

OK, I'll sort out some links to your site and see what people think about the similarity of your posts to those of Smeggypants. I don't expect anyone is that bothered, but the fact you are denying it is starting to make it into a matter of principle .

Anyway, beyond that, how about answering my questions? I did answer yours after all.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

OK, I'll sort out some links to your site and see what people think about the similarity of your posts to those of Smeggypants. I don't expect anyone is that bothered, but the fact you are denying it is starting to make it into a matter of principle .

Anyway, beyond that, how about answering my questions? I did answer yours after all.

I'm not your Smeggypants and I don't have a site but whatever dude.

I'm not the first person to have a view against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and I doubt I'll be the last.

 

[Trojan_Jockey]

I'm not your Smeggypants and I don't have a site but whatever dude.

I'm not the first person to have a view against Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and I doubt I'll be the last.

Man, you should check it out, he speaks EXACTLY like you! http://www.smeggys.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=687b14fd7d99c69092b0bd9cb1ff074a

Maybe he is stealing your ideas, and your thoughts. Have a look and tell me what you think. This is very interesting, don't you think? You joined the JREF forum shortly after I had been to Smeggys place and told them about the JREF forum, so its even more of a coincidence. Seriously, check it out. Something spooky is going on.

Anyway, what about the issues I raised? Post #87. Care to address them?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

His Anti Semitism, that is. The term Zionist has pretty much replaced NWO over at infowars.
Not that it was not painfully obvious before, but now Jones is making no attempts to hide his belief that The Jews Are Behind Everything.
And on Wenesday Ron Paul was on the show sounding nuttier then usual.
Nice going guys.

OK, I've decided to check out infowars.com - It's not a very well out site in terms of navigation. I typed Zionist and Zionism into it's search box, but unfortunately the results included user comments which made it almost impossible to locate anything. It really is a rubbish website.

Now the charge of racism is a serious one so could you kindly link to some Alex Jones articles where he is being prejudice against Jews?

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

Man, you should check it out, he speaks EXACTLY like you! http://www.smeggys.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=687b14fd7d99c69092b0bd9cb1ff074a

Maybe he is stealing your ideas, and your thoughts. Have a look and tell me what you think. This is very interesting, don't you think? You joined the JREF forum shortly after I had been to Smeggys place and told them about the JREF forum, so its even more of a coincidence. Seriously, check it out. Something spooky is going on.

Anyway, what about the issues I raised? Post #87. Care to address them?

You seem obsessed with this Smeggypants. The internet is full of people with similar ideas. You're weird.

 

[dudalb]

Do you think it's anti-semitical to criticize the Zionist movement not for ti's involvement in creating Israel per se, but for it's involvement in creating Israel at the expense of the indigenous population?

I think that is called a "distinction without any real difference".

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I think that is called a "distinction without any real difference".

Sadly for real human beings being persecuted there's a huge difference. What do you think about those being persecuted?

 

[Trojan_Jockey]

You seem obsessed with this Smeggypants. The internet is full of people with similar ideas. You're weird.

I know CTs never ever admit they are wrong, even over the slightest thing, but if you could address my points it might help.

I'll try again:

You have presented no substantial evidence that Israel has a policy of expansion, except for an unverified personal speculation that is 60 years old. I have presented you with the written policy of Hamas which declares their goal is the destruction of Israel. Yet you equate these two pieces of evidence as equal wrongs?? The goals of Israel are equally wrong as the goals of Hamas, is that what you are saying?

Secondly, who partitioned Palestine to create the state of Israel if it wasn't the UN?

Now I know it's better to die than back down on an internet forum, but please try and answer rather than just ignoring it.

 

[Tin Foil Timothy]

I know CTs never ever admit they are wrong, even over the slightest thing, but if you could address my points it might help.

I'll try again:

You have presented no substantial evidence that Israel has a policy of expansion, except for an unverified personal speculation that is 60 years old.

"no substantial evidence" ?

I know you think the UN created Israel but surely you cannot be blind to the comparison of the size of Israel in 1948 and the size of it now. Is it bigger or smaller?

And the settlements, which are still being illegally built on land that not only really belongs to Palestinians, but was designated a Palestinian zone by the partition plan, are still going on. If that's not expansionism I don't know what is. And more new concrete walls are being built further into the West Bank.

I have presented you with the written policy of Hamas which declares their goal is the destruction of Israel. Yet you equate these two pieces of evidence as equal wrongs?? The goals of Israel are equally wrong as the goals of Hamas, is that what you are saying?

I haven't made any proportional comparisons of wrong doings.

But compare this.Israel is actually slowly but surely reducing the land the Palestinians have left. I don't believe Hamas as reduced any land illegally occupied by Israel.

Secondly, who partitioned Palestine to create the state of Israel if it wasn't the UN?

Asking such basic questions. What is this? Elementary history? Your question is flawed anyway.

 

[MaGZ]

Hitler was very-very-VERY evil.
Happy?

Moon, you're normally fairly rational. However, here you're bordering on Antisemitism.

I've never heard a Karelian complain about Hitler. Do you know what this means? Precisely nothing.

As a side point, and this shouldn't even be relevant: if you haven't heard a Jew complain about Stalin - it's either out of willful ignorance or a statistical anomaly. Stalin was a world-class anti-Semite. One of his famous pogroms is commemorated at a near-by shul every summer.

Trotsky complained about Stalin.

 

[Bobert]

I thought Ron Paul gave the Truth movement the proverbial finger?
He still goes on Jones show?