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Major Copyright Judgement

Has it ? Seems to be doing fine to me. (And no, I'm not saying piracy isn't bad. I said so right in my previous post. But it doesn't seem to hurt the industry so much; not that this is the point, anyway. It's a matter of ownership.)

Interesting that you consider this a matter of "ownership."

So, when I pay my monies, I only am provided access to the game/music as SONY/BMG/Valve/Infinity Ward/etc deem to allow without any actual real ownership, right?

In that case, why shouldn't I just pirate it and have, ya know, actual, real ownership of the music/games so that I can do with it as I please? Like, say, play the same mp3 on my 2 different computers, in my car and in my truck without having to pay extra for that privilege?



GreyICE: Or in the case of a single-player game, not be required to pay for an internet connection to play it. Regardless of whether I have an internet connection at home today or not, that is entirely up to me. For a game developer to require that I have internet connection to play a single-player game is, well, retarded. Are you going to tell me that I have to pay for the Airport wi-fi to play a single player game on my lay-over?

Sure, it's entirely my right to not purchase the game...but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing copyrighting and DRM - and in this case specifically, DRM that is overly intrusive. It's simple, really, an Internet Connection should not be required for a single player game.
 
You specifically stated that you were talking about "everyday moral judgments".

Now they are objective? :rolleyes:

They aren't. The facts upon which the judgment is rendered are. Such, for example, as the fact that taking a copy of a recording to which you have no legal right is "theft" by any ordinary, non-technical definition of the word.
 
Interesting that you consider this a matter of "ownership."

So, when I pay my monies, I only am provided access to the game/music as SONY/BMG/Valve/Infinity Ward/etc deem to allow without any actual real ownership, right?

In that case, why shouldn't I just pirate it and have, ya know, actual, real ownership of the music/games so that I can do with it as I please? Like, say, play the same mp3 on my 2 different computers, in my car and in my truck without having to pay extra for that privilege?
I don't see why you're suddenly shocked that this is the case. When you buy a pill from the pharmacist, you've never been allowed to take the pill, reverse engineer the compounds in it, and start making it and selling it. When you buy the Wizard of Oz you never bought the rights to use the songs in your school play. When you bought a Model T, you always bought the car, you didn't buy the right to take the car apart, figure out how it works, and start building your own.

This is the major problem I have with most copyright complainers on the internet - they're crazy. If you want to protest the DMCA and copyright in the US, go right ahead. There's a lot of BS in there, including the idea that publishers and music rights holders can literally take the right to a work from the artist, then not use that right - stranding the work in limbo.

But the rantings that instead come out are just over-the-top stupid. Half of what you're asking for is legal and a lot of companies have made technologically simple (it's like complaining that Windows ME sucks, so you won't buy Microsoft products), the rest no one has ever had the right to do at any point.

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you that you can't get a good grasp of our legal system by reading a few pro-theft blogs. But you're regurgitating stupid talking points here, not thinking.



GreyICE: Or in the case of a single-player game, not be required to pay for an internet connection to play it. Regardless of whether I have an internet connection at home today or not, that is entirely up to me. For a game developer to require that I have internet connection to play a single-player game is, well, retarded. Are you going to tell me that I have to pay for the Airport wi-fi to play a single player game on my lay-over?

Sure, it's entirely my right to not purchase the game...but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing copyrighting and DRM - and in this case specifically, DRM that is overly intrusive. It's simple, really, an Internet Connection should not be required for a single player game.

No, it's NOT entirely up to you. What the hell? Needing certain prerequisites to play a game has ALWAYS been understood. This is software, it has certain requirements before it can be run.

The fact that you think that system requirements to run software are bs because what computer you have is 'entirely up to you' is complete nonsense. If you think this game has requirements that are unnecessary, don't buy it. I certainly never thought that the original Halo required a graphics card computer so powerful that they'd be top of the line in my PC, and in fact I blamed it on a stupid artifact of a console port, but I just didn't buy it. I never complained that Bungie deprived me of my right to play Halo because the system requirements for the game to run smoothly were ludicrously beyond what that sort of game actually required.

It's this constant disconnect with reality that drives me nuts with this particular forum debate. It feels like I'm talking to some kids with posters chanting slogans, not actual human beings.
 
Oh, and while I'm waiting for AvalonXQ to figure out why "identity theft" isn't "theft" I'd like to offer a quick observation about Dowling v. United States. Yes, it is true that in that ruling 6 justices ruled that you couldn't apply a statute pertaining to the transportation of "stolen property" across state lines to the transportation of pirated DVDs.

On the other hand, three Supreme Court justices argued in a dissenting opinion that it was absurd not to regard these DVDs as the product of a theft, absurd not to regard piracy as a form of theft, and clearly out of step with many legal precedents.

My point is not that the majority does not settle the issue of law. It is that three Supreme Court justices do not regard it as "obvious" even that there is a clear legal distinction to be made here. The suggestion that in ordinary usage we would not regard this illegal taking as "theft" is just absurd. It is also painfully obvious that it is entirely self-serving ("hey, I'm not a THIEF, I'm just a COPYRIGHT INFRINGER!").
 
Interesting that you consider this a matter of "ownership."

So, when I pay my monies, I only am provided access to the game/music as SONY/BMG/Valve/Infinity Ward/etc deem to allow without any actual real ownership, right?

In that case, why shouldn't I just pirate it and have, ya know, actual, real ownership of the music/games so that I can do with it as I please? Like, say, play the same mp3 on my 2 different computers, in my car and in my truck without having to pay extra for that privilege?

The issue is that you don't own the game/music/movie even if you pirate it, the game/music/movie belongs to the creator (or company that hires the creator.) When you buy a CD or DVD you are buying a licence to use that game/music/movie legally on the condition that you abide by the licencing agreement (that thing most people ignore and just press "OKAY" on). When you pirate, you deprive the creators of a licence fee for you to use their work. Now a lot of people say, "But I wouldn't have bought it anyway." To me that doesn't wash. I can't go and take a TV from a store and say, "But I wouldn't have bought it anyway." You are still taking a service from someone, gaining from it, and no compensating them for their time and effort. If you really wouldn't have bought it otherwise, then don't bother taking it at all. I am quite sure that if you were the one that was having your work taken and used without payment for it, you'd be the first screaming murder.
 
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I don't see why you're suddenly shocked that this is the case. When you buy a pill from the pharmacist, you've never been allowed to take the pill, reverse engineer the compounds in it, and start making it and selling it. When you buy the Wizard of Oz you never bought the rights to use the songs in your school play. When you bought a Model T, you always bought the car, you didn't buy the right to take the car apart, figure out how it works, and start building your own.
True. But when I bought my Model T, I didn't have to pay the manufacturer for every road I chose to drive it down. Nor did I have to pay extra if my gf (or any other person) decides she needs an Aleve from the bottle I bought, or if you want to say prescribed meds - I don't have to pay extra to take the meds at work vs at home. (BTW, The Wizard of Oz is a bad example because, well, it's what you're trying to compare to...)

The point is, and you've helped me make it actually, that when I bought those items, I have the right to use them when/where I see fit (even the meds - I don't have to adhere strictly to the prescription). This is not equivalent to the recording industry where I buy an mp3 and can only use it on one computer. Technically, it's illegal to let your friend borrow your CD because he/she hasn't paid for the right to listen to it.

This is the major problem I have with most copyright complainers on the internet - they're crazy. If you want to protest the DMCA and copyright in the US, go right ahead. There's a lot of BS in there, including the idea that publishers and music rights holders can literally take the right to a work from the artist, then not use that right - stranding the work in limbo.
Ok, well, thanks for calling me crazy. That, honestly, doesn't really mean much considering the context of your rabid posts in this thread. But, ok.

But the rantings that instead come out are just over-the-top stupid. Half of what you're asking for is legal and a lot of companies have made technologically simple (it's like complaining that Windows ME sucks, so you won't buy Microsoft products), the rest no one has ever had the right to do at any point.

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you that you can't get a good grasp of our legal system by reading a few pro-theft blogs. But you're regurgitating stupid talking points here, not thinking.
Excuse me, these are not regurgitated talking points. These are real-life, every single day issues I deal with when debating whether to purchase an mp3 or not. To purchase a DRM free mp3, I have to pay extra. If I don't pay extra, that mp3 cannot be played in my car or truck. That is fact, not just some talking point being regurgitated. If you don't care to address the meat of the issue, so be it. But that's on you.


No, it's NOT entirely up to you. What the hell? Needing certain prerequisites to play a game has ALWAYS been understood. This is software, it has certain requirements before it can be run.

The fact that you think that system requirements to run software are bs because what computer you have is 'entirely up to you' is complete nonsense. If you think this game has requirements that are unnecessary, don't buy it. I certainly never thought that the original Halo required a graphics card computer so powerful that they'd be top of the line in my PC, and in fact I blamed it on a stupid artifact of a console port, but I just didn't buy it. I never complained that Bungie deprived me of my right to play Halo because the system requirements for the game to run smoothly were ludicrously beyond what that sort of game actually required.
Congratulations on completely missing the point of that. You're right, I have the choice whether to purchase the game or not - I am well aware of that. In fact, I even stated as such in my previous post. However, not being able to play the game because of DRM is not the same as a computer not having the proper specs to play. Is gameplay itself (not being able to play notwithstanding, but the game itself) affected by the absence of an internet connection? No. The DRM is not required for the game to run smoothly. Period. Proper specs are. There is quite the distinction there.

It's this constant disconnect with reality that drives me nuts with this particular forum debate. It feels like I'm talking to some kids with posters chanting slogans, not actual human beings.

Look, drop the condescending attitude. Alright? No need for it.

You, apparently, didn't even bother to read my post. You saw it as just another pirate/script-kiddie posting. This is, in fact, the same error the RIAA makes on a regular basis. I am not posting as pro/anti-piracy. I am anti-DRM that makes me jump through hoops to gain the access I've purchased.
 
Because of the issues with Legitimate users and DRM, I have actually seen smaller companies Purchase Legitimate copies of software which are never opened, and then Download the cracked version to actually install. This way they have the correct licensed product, but are using a more stable and reliable cracked copy.

Then there is the situation of what happens if the DRM server no longer exists in the case of dial home DRM. Yahoo Music was an example of this (There are a few others but they escape me atm) Yes this is Music side, But any one who bought music from Yahoo, suddenly loss that right to move it, due to Yahoo shutting down the DRM server. Whats preventing Assassins Creed II going this way in 3 years time, then everyone who has paid money for something they own will not be able to play.

As to myself, I have not bought a New PC game in a long while, Why, Cause with the PS3 I don't need to update the equipment every 6 months for them to run on day 0. I have spent more on PS3 games than I ever did in total on PC games, Which is a pain, as I do love games like Civ/DoW/DnD/etc. When I do buy a PC game it is in the $9 bin, and normally 5+ years old, compared to buying Batman and Ghostbusters Day 0 for the PS3.

DRM only effects valid users, Pirates don't give a stuff about it and circumvent it fairly quickly now a days. It's Like when I buy a dvd and have to sit through the Pirate warning at the start. WTF, I've bought it, A pirated copy is just the movie, they will never see it, So Why is a legitimate purchaser having to sit through that crap.
 
The issue is that you don't own the game/music/movie even if you pirate it, the game/music/movie belongs to the creator (or company that hires the creator.) When you buy a CD or DVD you are buying a licence to use that game/music/movie legally on the condition that you abide by the licencing agreement (that thing most people ignore and just press "OKAY" on). When you pirate, you deprive the creators of a licence fee for you to use their work. Now a lot of people say, "But I wouldn't have bought it anyway." To me that doesn't wash. I can't go and take a TV from a store and say, "But I wouldn't have bought it anyway." You are still taking a service from someone, gaining from it, and no compensating them for their time and effort. I am quite sure that if you were the one that was having your work taken and used without payment for it, you'd be the first screaming murder.

Woah there. Hold on. I'm not who you think I am, please don't put words/excuses/arguments in my mouth...

I'm not making the argument that I wouldn't pay for it anyway. Reality is that I buy CDs anyway (because I want the higher quality audio).

My argument is strictly against DRM. I do download FLAC files from time to time, mostly because I want to know if the $20 CD is worth purchasing (most aren't) or it's tracks I cannot find in a record store (Amazon.com, et al don't have everything, btw).


Now, all that aside, let's discuss DRM :)


So I don't own the material either way, fair enough. One way does allow me, the consumer, to do whatever I want with it, the other does not. Piracy isn't always about the money or the self-esteem. Sometimes it's just about being able to use the product without jumping through hoops (I would even argue that's quite a bit of the time).




On a separate, but related, note: I refuse to pay $60 for Modern Warfare 2 (again, I realize this is my choice) as I don't believe it's worth that. I could, very easily, download a cracked copy and play. Either way, Infinity Ward makes nothing off me. Were the price more reasonable, say $40, I would go ahead and purchase the game. How many sales are lost because the price is too high vs how many people would still pirate the game? I think at this point, there still isn't enough data to honestly be able to assess that.
 
That entire post came from bizarro world. My friend has bought a bunch of music, he takes his Ipod into my car and plugs it in. It plays music. I'm sure a lot of it has DRM, I'm sure some of it doesn't, and I'm sure all of it plays.

The fact that he claims it's a 'real life, everyday issue' that he has to deal with just makes it worse. I'm sure he's spent long hours agonizing over whether his latest discography of every artist he's ever heard torrent, err, I mean his legitimately purchased music, works when he, um, takes his laptop and plugs a LAN cable into the car's tape deck?
 
On a separate, but related, note: I refuse to pay $60 for Modern Warfare 2 (again, I realize this is my choice) as I don't believe it's worth that. I could, very easily, download a cracked copy and play. Either way, Infinity Ward makes nothing off me. Were the price more reasonable, say $40, I would go ahead and purchase the game. How many sales are lost because the price is too high vs how many people would still pirate the game? I think at this point, there still isn't enough data to honestly be able to assess that.

The price is 'too high?' Nonsense. Record breaking numbers of people bought that game.

I'm sure in a year or so Infinity Ward will agree that $60 is too much, and Steam will have it on sale for $40. And you can buy it. And a few years from now, it'll probably be $10. And if you only think its worth that, you can buy it then.

So even your 'it costs too much' argument is just nonsense. You can get it for $40, just not right now. There's no 'cost analysis,' the pirates just steal it.
 
True. But when I bought my Model T, I didn't have to pay the manufacturer for every road I chose to drive it down. Nor did I have to pay extra if my gf (or any other person) decides she needs an Aleve from the bottle I bought, or if you want to say prescribed meds - I don't have to pay extra to take the meds at work vs at home. (BTW, The Wizard of Oz is a bad example because, well, it's what you're trying to compare to...)

The point is, and you've helped me make it actually, that when I bought those items, I have the right to use them when/where I see fit (even the meds - I don't have to adhere strictly to the prescription). This is not equivalent to the recording industry where I buy an mp3 and can only use it on one computer. Technically, it's illegal to let your friend borrow your CD because he/she hasn't paid for the right to listen to it.

I agree that they are bad examples, because with a pill, or a Model-T you are buying a physical item that you can do what you want with. When you buy music/games/movies you aren't, you are buying a licence to use an intangible product. This is the thing. You pay to use a licence based on the agreement. If you buy a music CD then you pay to have a licence that allows you to use that CD wherever you like as long as it is for non-commercial reasons. If you buy a game CD-ROM then you are buying a licence to install that game on a specified number of machines at any one time. If you buy an mp3 then you have the right to use that mp3 on one computer, mp3 player, etc according to the licence on it. You do have the right to lend that licence to another person, but you can't allow them to be using it and use it yourself at the same time (unless you have a licence that allows multiple copies.) On selling the licence is a gray area, but is generally allowed.
 
I agree that they are bad examples, because with a pill, or a Model-T you are buying a physical item that you can do what you want with. When you buy music/games/movies you aren't, you are buying a licence to use an intangible product. This is the thing. You pay to use a licence based on the agreement. If you buy a music CD then you pay to have a licence that allows you to use that CD wherever you like as long as it is for non-commercial reasons. If you buy a game CD-ROM then you are buying a licence to install that game on a specified number of machines at any one time. If you buy an mp3 then you have the right to use that mp3 on one computer, mp3 player, etc according to the licence on it. You do have the right to lend that licence to another person, but you can't allow them to be using it and use it yourself at the same time (unless you have a licence that allows multiple copies.) On selling the licence is a gray area, but is generally allowed.
But you can't do with it as you want because those were very specific examples of things you couldn't legally do with those physical objects.
 
That entire post came from bizarro world. My friend has bought a bunch of music, he takes his Ipod into my car and plugs it in. It plays music. I'm sure a lot of it has DRM, I'm sure some of it doesn't, and I'm sure all of it plays.

The fact that he claims it's a 'real life, everyday issue' that he has to deal with just makes it worse. I'm sure he's spent long hours agonizing over whether his latest discography of every artist he's ever heard torrent, err, I mean his legitimately purchased music, works when he, um, takes his laptop and plugs a LAN cable into the car's tape deck?

No, Sir, it did not.

I don't have an Ipod. Are you telling me that now I have to have an Ipod to listen to the music that I've paid for?

I choose not to have an Ipod. I choose to buy CDs. I choose not to pay for music (or games) with DRM so restrictive that I cannot use it as I see fit. That is every day reality.

But, go ahead, continue to rag on me because I don't agree with you. It only hurts your cause, not mine.


BTW: Where have I stated I am "pro-piracy" or that I torrent massive amounts of music?
 
Wildy has an ongoing problem where he responds to one sentence in a paragraph like the rest doesn't exist. In his last response, he chose to reply to the first few words in a sentence like the rest doesn't exist.

Honestly, I think he's just looking for an argument and taking every excuse to find one. I would have described this, but I realized its generally pointless.

And you have a problem with finding ways to dodge arguments. Care to respond to any of the other things that I said in that post?

Will you at least tell me which article that graph from Ars Technica came from?
 
Yes, actually, it does. It's the difference between taking and copying.
Since you gave a definition of theft as larceny, try to prove larceny where the victim still has possession of the object. Guess what? Unless you no longer have it, it's not larceny.

So... when you're copying a video game... you're not taking it ?

How does that work ?
 
Unless downloading the file erases it from the originating computer, downloading is different than stealing. Just because you can't recognize the distinction doesn't mean there isn't one.

So if I steal apples but they grow back, it's not stealing ?

(Huh... I see the apple thing's been already used as an analogy... weird)

Nope. It's not stolen, and it's not theft. It's copying.

Stealing profits isn't stealing ?
 
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