Major Copyright Judgement

[Yoink]

Got any examples of a copyright infringer being charged with theft?

Once again, no one is saying that that would be the appropriate technical legal term. What we are saying is that it is "theft" in any normal, real world use of the term.

 

[Yoink]

The definition of theft is that the victim loses what's stolen.

No, that's the definition of larceny. It is no one's definition of theft and never has been. Larceny is a form of theft. Not all acts of theft are larceny. This is not complicated.

 

[GreyICE]

So now you're claiming that nothing is really taken from the farmer because he might not miss it?
How contrived are you going to let your argument get? The definition of theft is that the victim loses what's stolen. If the victim remains in possession of his property, then the crime is something other than theft, period.

Here, answer me these questions to see if you're on the same planet as me:

If you get a haircut and walk out without paying is it theft?
If you sneak onto a train without a ticket, is it theft?
If you sneak into the movie theater without paying, is it theft?
If you take someone's jewelry for a month because they're out of town but return it before they're back, is it theft?

 

[AvalonXQ]

Once again, no one is saying that that would be the appropriate technical legal term. What we are saying is that it is "theft" in any normal, real world use of the term.

The normal, real world use of the term should (and, in reality, does) include the idea that what is stolen is taken from you. That's what makes copying different from theft -- you still have it when they're done.

 

[AvalonXQ]

If you get a haircut and walk out without paying is it theft?
If you sneak onto a train without a ticket, is it theft?
If you sneak into the movie theater without paying, is it theft?

EDITED: I missed it. All three of these are legally "theft of services" in many jurisdictions, and are prosecuted as a type of theft (larceny). This, then, is a type of "theft" where the person/company isn't denied of personal property. An interesting point, and the only thing I've seen resembling a good argument to date.
"Copyright infringement is theft; specifically it's equivalent to 'theft of services'". Interesting argument.

 

[Yoink]

The normal, real world use of the term should (and, in reality, does) include the idea that what is stolen is taken from you. That's what makes copying different from theft -- you still have it when they're done.

So you're saying that you've never heard the expression "he stole my idea" or that it would be nonstandard English?

 

[Gate2501]

So you're saying that you've never heard the expression "he stole my idea" or that it would be nonstandard English?

If you want to say that it is theft by a strictly informal and non-legal definition, sure. Pretty watered-down at that point of course, and most people who wish to call copyright violators thieves aren't speaking so informally.

Don't equivocate between the two, eh?

 

[GreyICE]

If you want to say that it is theft by a strictly informal and non-legal definition, sure. Pretty watered-down at that point of course, and most people who wish to call copyright violators thieves aren't speaking so informally.

Don't equivocate between the two, eh?

Care to answer my questions too?

 

[Yoink]

If you want to say that it is theft by a strictly informal and non-legal definition, sure. Pretty watered-down at that point of course, and most people who wish to call copyright violators thieves aren't speaking so informally.

Don't equivocate between the two, eh?

But I'm talking about our everyday moral judgment, and you're trying to shelter from that everyday moral judgment by hiding behind the very slender reed of legal technicalities.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Anyone who insists that copyright infringement is theft either doesn't understand what "copyright infringement" means or doesn't understand what "theft" means.

 

[PhantomWolf]

We can just call them law breakers, and then equate them to every other type of law breaker.

 

[Gate2501]

Sure.

If you get a haircut and walk out without paying is it theft?

Yes, it is considered to be a form of theft, fraud to be specific.

If you sneak onto a train without a ticket, is it theft?

No.

If you sneak into the movie theater without paying, is it theft?

No.

If you take someone's jewelry for a month because they're out of town but return it before they're back, is it theft?

Yes.

 

[Gate2501]

But I'm talking about our everyday moral judgment, and you're trying to shelter from that everyday moral judgment by hiding behind the very slender reed of legal technicalities.

Right, you are talking about subjective judgments, and I am talking about the technical definition of theft.

We agree.

 

[dudalb]

http://www.totalwar.com/

www.hpssims.com
www.matrixgames.com

A number of smaller game companies are catering to the strategy market. They depend on on line sales, and don't even try to compete for shelf space.

 

[GreyICE]

Sure.
Yes, it is considered to be a form of theft, fraud to be specific.
No.
No.
Yes.

Ah, maybe I should call 'piracy' fraud then.

In any case, your view of reality pretty much seems incompatible with mine - it's theft only if you feel that it's theft. That's just nonsense.

 

[AvalonXQ]

In any case, your view of reality pretty much seems incompatible with mine - it's theft only if you feel that it's theft. That's just nonsense.

Oh, okay, then. So tell us, what is theft that YOU don't feel is theft?
If you find that to be an unreasonable question, maybe he's not the one spouting nonsense.

 

[Yoink]

Right, you are talking about subjective judgments, and I am talking about the technical definition of theft.

We agree.

No, I'm talking about objective judgments rendered in ordinary everyday English vs. legal judgments rendered with reference to the specific technical language of the legal code.

 

[Yoink]

By the way, Avalon, is "identity theft" theft?

 

[Gate2501]

Ah, maybe I should call 'piracy' fraud then.

In any case, your view of reality pretty much seems incompatible with mine - it's theft only if you feel that it's theft. That's just nonsense.

Why would you call piracy fraud when it clearly is not fraud? It is extremely easy to demonstrate that it is not fraud.

Why would you say that it is only theft if I feel like it is theft? I have been working with strict formal definitions, and supreme court rulings, etc. I am trying to be as objective as I possibly can. Two of your examples fall under theft; burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, shoplifting, fraud, and criminal conversion are all considered theft.

Your example 1 was fraud.

2 and 3 weren't theft.

4 was criminal conversion.

I don't see how you can possibly say I am defining things as theft all willy-nilly based on my feelings.

ETA: You could argue that 2 and 3 are a kind of conversion actually, I am not quite sure what the law says in this regard.

ETA again!: After doing even more research, yes, 2 and 3 are a type of conversion, specifically theft of services. So technically speaking 1 2 3 and 4 are theft. My initial assessment was incorrect.

 

[Gate2501]

No, I'm talking about objective judgments rendered in ordinary everyday English vs. legal judgments rendered with reference to the specific technical language of the legal code.

You specifically stated that you were talking about "everyday moral judgments".

Now they are objective?