Magnets used to cure depression

Eos of the Eons said:
Okay, I'm reading and reading, and STILL not getting any answers to my questions.
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Gonna have to ask a physicist how magnetic fields can induce seizures. I'm just a chemist ;)
 
Okay,

Calling all physicists!!! Get yer butts in here!!

Thanks anyhoo Btox, at least you tried :)
 
Basically the machine works by placing a large magnet around a person's head, which resonates at a variable frequency until the "head begins to twitch". After it reaches this critical frequency, the machine emits a very high magentic field for a short period of time, and then the process is done.
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I see how the last part of this description matches the Alfred Psychiatry Research Centre double blind study, but I don't understand the first part of the description. Is the magnet or the patient's head resonating? The latter sounds painful. Would the twitching make an accurate application of the magnet field difficult?
 
Ladewig said:
Is the magnet or the patient's head resonating? The latter sounds painful. Would the twitching make an accurate application of the magnet field difficult?
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This was not made clear to me in the description given. In my original post, I indicate that I am quite unsure exactly what's going on, but I was not in a situation where it would have been appropriate to press for more information. I thought that I would turn to the group and see if anyone had any details about these procedures.

The links here indicate that this type of research is at least being performed in various different forms. Still sounds a little woo-woo to me, but if the evidence shows it to work....
 
This is reminiscent of past forum discussion on the use of magnets to demineralise water / improve gas mileage or to have any of several curative effects on circulatory or muscle problems: There is a great difference between the intensity of natural mag fields experienced by people and the extremely powerful fields generated by special equipment. In general , the impression I have received is that at low strengths, the effects are imaginary, but that at extreme intensities, the extremely weak mag fields associated with moving ions or molecules may be affected in some way. (And in general, so called therapy or fuel enhancers / water softeners come nowhere near the intensity where snall effects may (or may not) be real. Which is why we don't get a mental boost when we stand by the fridge.
Sounds to me like this is one for more research, The tests Third Twin describes, if correctly carried out don't sound like pure placebo effect to me- though I do wonder exactly how a physician decides that depression has been materially helped.
 
Eos of the Eons said:
Considering that the planet has a magnetic field, and it's really in flux right now...in preparation for a complete flip, then I say magnets don't have an effect on the human brain, or we're all going to go crazy nutso, or should be already.

I've had an MRI done on my brain. I fell asleep for a few minutes...but I was really tired and the procedure was really boring-even with the headphones I had on for listening to music.

The only concern they have is with actual metal objects. Our brains aren't metallic. I had to remove rings and earrings, etc.

Like I asked...what is it that a magnet could affect IN our bodies?
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Eos you are clearly wrong on this issue. Listen to Btox. quit going on and on about something that you clearly are clueless on.

dense? the magnets are capable of inducing seizures. what is it that you do not understand about this?
 
Olaf/QII said:
Eos you are clearly wrong on this issue. Listen to Btox. quit going on and on about something that you clearly are clueless on.

dense? the magnets are capable of inducing seizures. what is it that you do not understand about this?
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What the hell? Are you digging up old threads just to insult Eos?

Tch.
 
LostAngeles said:
What the hell? Are you digging up old threads just to insult Eos?

Tch.
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It is an interesting topic, and it is a good example of how people around here will blatantly deny something that is so obvious.

Like I said eos, listen to Btox. You are wrong.
 
The point to make here is that they are not using a steady magnetic field. One of the references listed above makes note of pulsed trains of magnetic impulses, which would induce a current in a conductor (like moist brain tissue). A conductor doesn't have to be ferrous or magnetic to have a current induced in it by a varying magnetic field (witness copper windings in a generator). Nothing here that trips my woo alarms. It sounds like it might be promising. Needs further investigation.

This sounds like it might be analogous to electroconvulsive therapy, only much more focused and not as brutal to where you have to blast through the skin and skull to get to the brain itself.

Now, if it was somebody taping cow magnets to the side of their heads and claiming results, I'd be skeptical.

Beanbag
 
Beanbag said:
The point to make here is that they are not using a steady magnetic field. One of the references listed above makes note of pulsed trains of magnetic impulses, which would induce a current in a conductor (like moist brain tissue). A conductor doesn't have to be ferrous or magnetic to have a current induced in it by a varying magnetic field (witness copper windings in a generator). Nothing here that trips my woo alarms. It sounds like it might be promising. Needs further investigation.

This sounds like it might be analogous to electroconvulsive therapy, only much more focused and not as brutal to where you have to blast through the skin and skull to get to the brain itself.

Now, if it was somebody taping cow magnets to the side of their heads and claiming results, I'd be skeptical.

Beanbag
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My thoughts exactly.
 
Olaf/QII said:
My thoughts exactly.
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only you try to refer to fridge magnets? Or how about those magnets for your bed? Do you buy magnets for your shoes?
One of the references listed above makes note of pulsed trains of magnetic impulses, which would induce a current in a conductor
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Cool, I was wondering about what effect the magnets could have. It seems from this the magnets induce a current...which involves electricity? This means it's a type of shock therapy only far more sophisticated? So it's not a "magnetic field" or anything they are claiming can have an effect on the human body?
 
Eos of the Eons said:

Cool, I was wondering about what effect the magnets could have. It seems from this the magnets induce a current...which involves electricity? This means it's a type of shock therapy only far more sophisticated? So it's not a "magnetic field" or anything they are claiming can have an effect on the human body?
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Any time a conductor (even a poor conductor) is subjected to a change in magnetic flux, an electrical current is induced in the conductor. The key is that the magnetic flux MUST change to induce the current. If you put a wire next to a permanent magnet, no current is induced once the wire and magnet remain stationary to each other. It's only when you move either the wire or magnet away in relation to the other (cutting through the lines of magnetic force) that you get a current.

Electromagnets that pulse on and off, or are driven by alternating current, induce a current because the magnetic field is changing. That's how transformers work.

So it wouldn't surprise me that projecting a changing magnetic field on tissue would produce some localized electrical currents in the tissue itself. After all, human tissue is a conductor. What the effects would be would depend on the voltage and current induced, and where it was induced. Lot of room for experimentation here.

Beanbag
 
HopkinsMedStudent said:
MRI is in no way comparable to using magnets for other medical purposes.

MRI was based on sound fundamental basic science before it was ever tried on humans.

MRI evolved from NMR, which was long-established as a verified scientific principle for analyzing chemical structure.

MRI physicists can explain in clear detail WHY and HOW magnetic fields can work together to generate an image.

With the other magnet therapies, the key sentence above is missing.

I'm not saying that magnets cant help with depression. All I'm saying is that these therapies are largely "black box" experiments whereas the development of MRI was in no way, shape or form a "black box" strategy.

MRI was developed step by step working from the ground up. It consisted of a logical sequence of steps that gradually became elaborate enough to produce clinical images.

Magnets for depression therapy is one of the "goofs" in medicine that was noticed accidently, with no real basic science in place to explain it before the effect was noted. In other words, this is going to be one of those situations in which we know it works, but we dont know why or how (similar to electroshock for depression).
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It's actually been a while since I've looked into this. But yes, the effect on depression was actually found by accident. If I remember correctly, people with depression who underwent MRI's were reporting that their mood was improved.

Eos, if you look at organic matter as it's elemental protons and electrons, I think it will make much more sense. MRI's work because their magnetic field is strong enough to effect the charges the electrons. Thus, if you get a magnetic field strong enough, you theoretically could be able to cause an effect on organic matter (in this case, the brain)
 
So, what's so hard to understand that electromagnetic force will warm up organic matter? Sorta like a microwave or an inductive cooktop, a few cycles directed at one part of a brain warm it up slightly and it puts out some endorphins, relieving some depression.

I do wonder about psychology determining that there has been a lessening of the depression, and crediting it to the 'waves'. Is it that instantaneous that it MUST be the magets, not, say, a nice lunch? Or the presence of a hot psychologist in a tight smock?
 
Magnets have been shown to be effective in curing depression in a similar fashion as electroconvulsive therapy.
We will hit you on the head with a horseshoe magnet every day until you cheer up.
 
Mouthfire said:
It's actually been a while since I've looked into this. But yes, the effect on depression was actually found by accident. If I remember correctly, people with depression who underwent MRI's were reporting that their mood was improved.

Eos, if you look at organic matter as it's elemental protons and electrons, I think it will make much more sense. MRI's work because their magnetic field is strong enough to effect the charges the electrons. Thus, if you get a magnetic field strong enough, you theoretically could be able to cause an effect on organic matter (in this case, the brain)
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So there you have it eos. You were wrong, but that is okay because you are still learning. --but you really need to try and be a little more positive. negativity breeds depression --depression breeds negativity. one can not have an open mind when they are too negative.
 
Olaf/QII said:
So there you have it eos. You were wrong, but that is okay because you are still learning. --but you really need to try and be a little more positive. negativity breeds depression --depression breeds negativity. one can not have an open mind when they are too negative.
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Olaf... maybe you should chill out and let the adults talk?
 
Eos of the Eons said:
, then I say magnets don't have an effect on the human brain,


..
Like I asked...what is it that a magnet could affect IN our bodies?
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Mouthfire,

this is an excellent example of the overwhelming negativity that goes on at this forum. I need to point it out so that people can learn from it and hopefully not repeat it. we need skeptics here NOT pseudoskeptics. you'll thank me later for doing this.

I also need to point out that this study was immediately labeled WOO". this is wrong and needs to be pointed out.
 
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