Magnets used to cure depression

[sol4590]

I've been lurking around these boards for a little while now, and been an avid reader of Randi's commentary for a few years. This is my first real post. I'm basically interested in if there has been any scientific study into the procedure that I am about to describe, or if it's just more magnet woo-woo-ism. I've been unable to find this particular process on google, so I thought I'd turn to the vast bank of knowledge that floats around these boards.

I am an electrical engineer, and I work for a company that makes custom machines. Recently I was talking to a colleague from my field. He told me that his company is building a machine for a group of 6 doctors who claim they have discovered a method of helping cure depression. Basically the machine works by placing a large magent around a persons head, which resonates at a variable frequency until the "head begins to twitch". After it reaches this critical frequency, the machine emits a very high magentic field for a short period of time, and then the process is done. This is supposed to be a "drug-free" way of curing clinical depression. He gave no information as to how it's supposed to work medically, only that these doctors are paying them to make the machine, so they are making it.

As someone who has experienced recurring (mild, though at times frustrating) depression, and had excellent results using simple anti-depressants, this topic is interesting to me. My instinct tells me that this sounds like a bunch of crap, but I didn't want to insult my friend's company or the work they were doing by speaking out of turn. I know the above description is sketchy at best, but in the interest in maintaining an appropriate business relationship, I decided not to push him for more details without checking my facts. Has anyone heard of this type of procedure and have any evidence either way?

 

[Rolfe]

Basically the machine works by placing a large magent around a persons head, which resonates at a variable frequency until the "head begins to twitch".

Surely something that can do this would have to have passed safety trials at least.... I hope....

It does sound very woo-woo, and the fact that it hasn't been widely publicised through news channels (as you'd expect for something that revolutionary if it was for real) also doesn't promote good vibes.

Gotta go now, but if someone has time to do a literature search, anything legit would surely show some validation studies....

Rolfe.

 

[Brown]

I'm basically interested in if there has been any scientific study into the procedure that I am about to describe, or if it's just more magnet woo-woo-ism.
...
I am an electrical engineer, and I work for a company that makes custom machines. Recently I was talking to a colleague from my field. He told me that his company is building a machine for a group of 6 doctors who claim they have discovered a method of helping cure depression. Basically the machine works by placing a large magent around a persons head, which resonates at a variable frequency until the "head begins to twitch". After it reaches this critical frequency, the machine emits a very high magentic field for a short period of time, and then the process is done. This is supposed to be a "drug-free" way of curing clinical depression. He gave no information as to how it's supposed to work medically, only that these doctors are paying them to make the machine, so they are making it.

As someone who has experienced recurring (mild, though at times frustrating) depression, and had excellent results using simple anti-depressants, this topic is interesting to me. My instinct tells me that this sounds like a bunch of crap, but I didn't want to insult my friend's company or the work they were doing by speaking out of turn. I know the above description is sketchy at best, but in the interest in maintaining an appropriate business relationship, I decided not to push him for more details without checking my facts. Has anyone heard of this type of procedure and have any evidence either way?

First of all, as one EE to another, I can say that not all magnet-related medical procedures are nonsense. Most people know that there are diagnostic benefits to magnetic resonance imaging, for example.

As for magnetic therapy affecting brain functions, I believe there is some evidence in support of it. I first heard of it in Scientific American Frontiers, in which a subject had herself temporarily blinded by the application of a magnetic field.

ALAN ALDA (NARRATION) With Gil's baseline skill established, now comes the dramatic part of the experiment.

ALVARO PASCUAL-LEONE I'm just taking the magnetic stimulation coil…

ALAN ALDA (NARRATION) This coil will deliver a powerful magnetic jolt to Gil's brain, temporarily disabling the region immediately beneath it.

ALVARO PASCUAL-LEONE We're targeting the back of your brain and in fact the back part we call the visual cortex.

ALAN ALDA (NARRATION) The visual cortex handles information from the eyes -- at least in those of us with sight.

ALVARO PASCUAL-LEONE Does it feel OK?

GIL It feels fine.

ALAN ALDA (NARRATION) Which makes this experiment seem rather odd. Why zap the visual cortex, when what's being tested is a skill involving touch, which is processed in another part of the brain entirely? In fact, this is a recreation of an experiment first done by Alvaro and his colleagues several years ago. Gil's experience today perfectly replicates that experiment.

GIL They felt very dim, like the dots weren't coming up as well as before.

ALAN ALDA (NARRATION) Gil's accuracy declined too. The extraordinary implication is that Gil's visual cortex is involved in reading Braille -- as if his brain has somehow rewired itself to recruit for touch, brain cells most of us use for seeing. And this is the reason for Michelle's abrupt encounter with blindness. The question is: Can her brain also rewire itself to help read Braille -- in her case after just a few days as compared with Gil's lifetime without sight?

Since then, I believe Scientific American magazine has written about the use of magnetism in similar respects. The use of magnetism to treat depression is a new one for me, but I would not write it off entirely at this stage.

 

[sol4590]

Re: Re: Magnets used to cure depression

The use of magnetism to treat depression is a new one for me, but I would not write it off entirely at this stage.

No, I didn't intend to write it off entirely. As an EE, I understand that magnetism is very real and simply misunderstood many times. MRI is something that appropriately aroused a great deal of skepticism when it was introduced, but has withstood scrutiny and experiementation. I didn't want to make a judgement either way without gathering some information about it first.

 

[CurtC]

Strong magnetic fields can disable vision? How strong?

When I had my MRIs done, it was 13 years ago, and the field was 15000 Gauss IIRC. That's pretty damn strong, and I could see fine. The only symptom I had was a very slight feeling of claustrophobia - maybe the magnetic field caused that?

 

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9803/20/magnets.depression/

ATLANTA (CNN) -- An experimental treatment for severe depression, in which powerful magnets are applied to patients' heads, is showing signs of success, a medical journal reports.

Emory University researchers report in the journal Psychiatric Annals that more than half of the patients treated improved with no serious side effects.

Note that this article dates back to 1998.

http://www.canoe.com/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/Today/2003/06/02/101326.html

2003-06-02 04:26:53
...
PONOKA, ALTA. -- It may sound like the reborn dream of a long-ago medical quack, but modern science is returning to the use of magnets to treat mental illnesses ranging from depression to schizophrenia. Since 1995, a treatment called transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) has gone from research to routine at hospitals across the United States, Europe and Australia. A few weeks ago, a small room in a corner of Alberta Hospital Ponoka became the fourth place in Canada where powerful, fluctuating magnetic fields are changing the way sick brains work.

I got these from a google search on "magnets" and "depression".

 

[Dr. Imago]

Transcranial magnetic stimulation in the treatment of depression: a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial.

Fitzgerald PB, Brown TL, Marston NA, Daskalakis ZJ, De Castella A, Kulkarni J.

Alfred Psychiatry Research Centre, The Alfred Hospital, and the Department of Psychological Medicine, Monash University, Australia. paul.fitzgerald@med.monash.edu.au

BACKGROUND: High-frequency left-sided repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (HFL-TMS) has been shown to have antidepressant effects in double-blind trials. Low-frequency stimulation to the right prefrontal cortex (LFR-TMS) has also shown promise, although it has not been assessed in treatment-resistant depression and its effects have not been compared with those of HFL-TMS. OBJECTIVE: To prospectively evaluate the efficacy of HFL-TMS and LFR-TMS in treatment-resistant depression and compared with a sham-treated control group. DESIGN: A double-blind, randomized, sham-controlled trial. SETTING: Two general psychiatric services. PARTICIPANTS: Sixty patients with treatment-resistant depression who had failed to respond to therapy with multiple antidepressant medications were divided into 3 groups of 20 that did not differ in age, sex, or any clinical variables. All patients completed the double-blind phase of the study. INTERVENTIONS: Twenty 5-second HFL-TMS trains at 10 Hz and five 60-second LFR-TMS trains at 1 Hz were applied daily. Sham stimulation was applied with the coil angled at 45 degrees from the scalp, resting on the side of one wing of the coil.Main Outcome Measure Score on the Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale. RESULTS: There was a significant difference in response among the 3 groups (F56,2 = 6.2), with a significant difference between the HFL-TMS and sham groups and between the LFR-TMS and sham groups (P<.005 for all) but not between the 2 treatment groups. Baseline psychomotor agitation predicted successful response to treatment. CONCLUSIONS: Both HFL-TMS and LFR-TMS have treatment efficacy in patients with medication-resistant major depression. Treatment for at least 4 weeks is necessary for clinically meaningful benefits to be achieved. Treatment with LFR-TMS may prove to be an appropriate initial repetitive TMS strategy in depression taking into account safety, tolerability, and efficacy considerations.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14557145&dopt=Abstract

This is definitely a promising area of research.

-TT

 

[Aoidoi]

Seems similar to Electro-convulsive therapy (or whatever they're calling shock treatments these days) only without the nasty convulsions and such.

Kind of the kinder, gentler way to reboot the brain.

It is interesting, I'd also assumed it was bunk but it looks like my first impression was wrong and it is a reasonable area of research. Learn something new every day.

 

[Dorian Gray]

I think the only way magnets would cure depression would be if you got rich selling magnets.

 

[El Greco]

In any case I don't think the term "cure" is appropriate, since cure would probably mean a permanent modification in gene expression, which is rather unthinkable. "Treatment", maybe.

 

[HopkinsMedStudent]

MRI is in no way comparable to using magnets for other medical purposes.

MRI was based on sound fundamental basic science before it was ever tried on humans.

MRI evolved from NMR, which was long-established as a verified scientific principle for analyzing chemical structure.

MRI physicists can explain in clear detail WHY and HOW magnetic fields can work together to generate an image.

With the other magnet therapies, the key sentence above is missing.

I'm not saying that magnets cant help with depression. All I'm saying is that these therapies are largely "black box" experiments whereas the development of MRI was in no way, shape or form a "black box" strategy.

MRI was developed step by step working from the ground up. It consisted of a logical sequence of steps that gradually became elaborate enough to produce clinical images.

Magnets for depression therapy is one of the "goofs" in medicine that was noticed accidently, with no real basic science in place to explain it before the effect was noted. In other words, this is going to be one of those situations in which we know it works, but we dont know why or how (similar to electroshock for depression).

 

[HopkinsMedStudent]

Strong magnetic fields can disable vision? How strong?

I'm working with the NIH on the development of the world's first 7T (70,000 gauss) human MR scanner and we didnt see any problems with vision on the test patients.

When I had my MRIs done, it was 13 years ago, and the field was 15000 Gauss IIRC. That's pretty damn strong, and I could see fine. The only symptom I had was a very slight feeling of claustrophobia - maybe the magnetic field caused that?

Well, thats a 1.5T magnet, which is the typical field strength for MRI. There are 0.5 - 3T scanners used on humans, a new 7T scanner in development. There are animal MR scanners which go all the way up to 14T. (1 T = 10,000 gauss).

I guess "strong" is a relative term. 1.5T is strong enough to kill someone if a large ferromagnetic object is brought into the scanner room. There was a boy who died at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center while undergoing an MRI--a nurse brought an oxygen tank into the room. Of course, the magnetic field picked it up and hurled it into the bore, smashing his head.

There's no evidence that magnetic fields cause claustrophobia that I'm aware of. Its the small bore size that causes it, not the magnetic field. There are "open" MR scanners though which dont have a bore. Instead they have 2 panels and are much more user friendly without the claustrophic, small bore designs. However, they have a tradeoff in respect to field strength which produces less than optimal images.

 

[BTox]

Seems similar to Electro-convulsive therapy (or whatever they're calling shock treatments these days) only without the nasty convulsions and such.

Kind of the kinder, gentler way to reboot the brain.

It is interesting, I'd also assumed it was bunk but it looks like my first impression was wrong and it is a reasonable area of research. Learn something new every day.

Not necessarily. It is unclear from what I've read (perhaps Third Twin can give more details) whether TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) is the same as MST (magnetic seizure therapy). Here's a paper on a single case where convulsive seizures were induced with magnetic stimulation rather than electroshock, with similar results.

mst for depression

There are also many other papers on the use of TMS as a diagnostic tool, with the ability to precisely stimulate specific regions of the brain.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

What part of the brain would be affected by magnets? What in the brain could be affected by magnets? Electroshock is obvious when it comes to cause and effect.

Depression that is 'real' is a chemical imbalance brought on by prolonged stress caused by any multiple reasons. A person can be anxious and stressing themselves, or it can be more of an external cause. A person must have some sort of ability to start reducing said stress and even use antidepressants to bring their body back to a normal state to relieve depression.

How the heck would magnets help with any of this...except to get a person distracted long enough during the 'procedure' and even have a placebo affect? An anxious person can fool themselves into to thinking that finally something is working and become less anxious (especially 'anti-drug' folks) and thus relieve said stress and help their poor brain.

Magnets and schizophrenia? Give me a break. I will say right now that magnets will never ever ever ever help a person become symptom free of their schizophrenia without other drug therapy alongside it.

I feel there is a placebo effect here, and no real effect caused by the magnets themselves.

 

[Rolfe]

Seems similar to Electro-convulsive therapy (or whatever they're calling shock treatments these days) only without the nasty convulsions and such.

Kind of the kinder, gentler way to reboot the brain.

It is interesting, I'd also assumed it was bunk but it looks like my first impression was wrong and it is a reasonable area of research. Learn something new every day.

Maybe so. I was sort of musing on this possibility after I'd posted earlier in the thread.

I mean, how did they figure out ECT was useful for depression? I don't think I'd have liked to be one of the guinea pigs on that one! They must have had one hell of a nerve even to think of trying it! But even though it's controversial, and not entirely free of side-effects, there seems to be little doubt that it has an effect.

So, open mind still on the magnets one, let's see what transpires.

Rolfe.

 

[sickstan]

I think the only way magnets would cure depression would be if you got rich selling magnets.

Well, please remember that fluctuations in magnetic fields cause induction of voltage in conductors. Most magnets don't generate enough potential to cause significant current in humans. I wonder if high gauss induction can cause observable internal currents to flow. I'd also wonder if that may present a hazard to those with cardiac conduction abnormalities.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Considering that the planet has a magnetic field, and it's really in flux right now...in preparation for a complete flip, then I say magnets don't have an effect on the human brain, or we're all going to go crazy nutso, or should be already.

I've had an MRI done on my brain. I fell asleep for a few minutes...but I was really tired and the procedure was really boring-even with the headphones I had on for listening to music.

The only concern they have is with actual metal objects. Our brains aren't metallic. I had to remove rings and earrings, etc.

Like I asked...what is it that a magnet could affect IN our bodies?

 

[BTox]

Considering that the planet has a magnetic field, and it's really in flux right now...in preparation for a complete flip, then I say magnets don't have an effect on the human brain, or we're all going to go crazy nutso, or should be already.

Read some of the links in this thread - this is real. Powerful magnets are used and the fields can be focused in precise regions. Convulsions can even be induced, just like electroshock therapy!

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Read some of the links in this thread - this is real. Powerful magnets are used and the fields can be focused in precise regions. Convulsions can even be induced, just like electroshock therapy!

I didn't read anything about convulsions. Please quote the material with a link to it so I don't have to dig so much.

It needs to say why and how the convulsions happened and that the person is not the type to have seizures otherwise.

Like I said, we know why electric shock causes convulsions, you can stick something in a light socket and feel the effect. I put a huge powerful magnet next to my head though...and feel nothing.

We also know that there is nothing in the body that is attracted to any magnet. So in layman's terms, why would any magnetic field have any effect on our organic matter?

You can cook something with electricity, but you can't with a magnet. In fact, they say lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun.

electric currents=energy.

mangetic field = ???

 

[BTox]

"MST is a novel brain stimulation method using transcranial magnetic stimulation at convulsive parameters in order to induce therapeutic seizures under general anesthesia in the same setting used for electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). The first use of therapeutic magnetic seizure induction in a psychiatric patient took place at the University Hospital in Bern, Switzerland, in May 2000. Results of a recent randomized, within-subject, double-masked trial comparing ECT and MST in 10 patients indicate that MST appears to have less subjective and objective side effects, is associated with faster recovery of orientation, and is superior to ECT on measures of attention, retrograde amnesia, and category fluency."

Neuropsychopharmacology. 2003 Nov;28(11):2045-8. "Magnetic seizure therapy improves mood in refractory major depression." Kosel M, Frick C, Lisanby SH, Fisch HU, Schlaepfer TE.
Department of Psychiatry, University Hospital Bern, Switzerland.