Mac vs PC

rustypouch · Nov 11, 2009

daSkeptic said:
As has already been discussed, this is not as simple a prospect as one might think. There is far more to it than simply gathering up some parts and slapping them together. There are issues of quality and support, not to mention the overhead involved. If you're going to compare yourself to Apple, you need to start by defining exactly what it is they do. I guarantee it is a lot more than simply mounting a motherboard and plugging things in.

Please, explain. I am very curious.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I am in the market for a new laptop. The one I am considering is: http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX26041(ME).aspx

It is $150 cheaper than the entry level 15" Macbook pro.

Yet the Asus has a better processor, a larger, faster HD, a video card that destroys the one in the Macbook, a higher resolution display, and more interface ports. Granted, it is slightly larger and not quite as pretty as the Apple.

I am still unclear on what the perceived value is in Apple, that people will pay more money for less performance.

elgarak · Nov 11, 2009

rustypouch said:
Please, explain. I am very curious.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I am in the market for a new laptop. The one I am considering is: http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/PID-MX26041(ME).aspx

It is $150 cheaper than the entry level 15" Macbook pro.

Yet the Asus has a better processor, a larger, faster HD, a video card that destroys the one in the Macbook, a higher resolution display, and more interface ports. Granted, it is slightly larger and not quite as pretty as the Apple.

I am still unclear on what the perceived value is in Apple, that people will pay more money for less performance.

I'll bite.

(Note: You have mentioned prices in Can-$. In US-$, the price difference is just US-$20. And the following are just things I noticed on first glance. I would need more time to delve into the internal computing differences, and I'm not willing to invest this time.)

The MacBook Pro is lighter (800 g), smaller (most notably over one cm, at the tickest part of the Asus even 1.5 cm, thinner), and has a case made of Aluminum. It has a large, multi-touch, glass surface track pad and runs nearly 7 hours (advertised, real-life up to 6.5 hours) on one charge.

The Asus case is made of plastic, with a small standard (non-multi-touch, I presume) track pad, and runs out of juice at an advertised runtime of 2 hours (real-life ~1..1.5 hours, I estimate). In short, the Asus will be a bitch to lug around and run off the grid.

Now, you may not care about these features (I do). Doesn't matter, anyway, since they are both machines intended for vastly different applications and user profiles.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Apple simply does not make a laptop with the features you want, that's all.

elgarak · Nov 11, 2009

Speaking of the thickness/thinness of the MacBook Pro:

How much are you willing to pay for a machine that's smaller? How much R&D has the manufacturer to do to make this possible (including all the other bits and pieces, like battery runtime, heat management etc.)? Are you willing to finance this R&D with the profit the manufacturer makes from your purchase?

I work in semiconductor/Nano-technology research, and it's not cheaper at all to make things smaller. Usually, it's much more expensive.

rustypouch · Nov 12, 2009

elgarak said:
I'll bite.

(Note: You have mentioned prices in Can-$. In US-$, the price difference is just US-$20. And the following are just things I noticed on first glance. I would need more time to delve into the internal computing differences, and I'm not willing to invest this time.)

The MacBook Pro is lighter (800 g), smaller (most notably over one cm, at the tickest part of the Asus even 1.5 cm, thinner), and has a case made of Aluminum. It has a large, multi-touch, glass surface track pad and runs nearly 7 hours (advertised, real-life up to 6.5 hours) on one charge.

The Asus case is made of plastic, with a small standard (non-multi-touch, I presume) track pad, and runs out of juice at an advertised runtime of 2 hours (real-life ~1..1.5 hours, I estimate). In short, the Asus will be a bitch to lug around and run off the grid.

Now, you may not care about these features (I do). Doesn't matter, anyway, since they are both machines intended for vastly different applications and user profiles.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Apple simply does not make a laptop with the features you want, that's all.

I don't know about the US market, but I was comparing http://store.apple.com/ca/configure/MC118LL/A?mco=MTM3NDcyODk

Granted, the Apple is lighter and has better battery life.

Plastic case? Meh. If it's a decent plastic, it's just as durable as aluminum. Trackpad? I loathe them all. I would carry a mouse, no matter the system. Plus the Asus comes with a mouse.

Apple does make a system with the features I want. I don't understand why it's worth it to spend significantly more on an Apple to get similar processing power.

not daSkeptic · Nov 12, 2009

rustypouch said:
Apple does make a system with the features I want. I don't understand why it's worth it to spend significantly more on an Apple to get similar processing power.

Then buy something else. From what you've written it seems apparent that sticker price and published specs are what you value. That's fine. Others, however, may have different needs. Some people may prefer the things elgarak mentioned. Some may like the way Apple's products look. Some may have a need for a reliable, low-cost, turnkey, UNIX platform. Some may value the stability often found in a limited-configuration system with a purpose-built OS. Some may have a need to use a particular Mac-only application.

There are many reasons why people choose one manufacturer over another. Maybe none of the things mentioned above are important to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't important to others. For my company, we found it invaluable that we could pop down the street and pick up inexpensive, reliable UNIX machines and then be back at the office using them inside half-an-hour. Your needs may vary.

dtugg · Nov 12, 2009

OK, I am really bored so I decided to do a comparison of Apple and Dell laptops. These were taken from their respective websites.

Note: I could not find a claimed battery life for the Dell. I am sure, however, that it is significantly less than the Mac's.

Take this for what you will.

rwp · Nov 12, 2009

daSkeptic said:
As has already been discussed, this is not as simple a prospect as one might think. There is far more to it than simply gathering up some parts and slapping them together. There are issues of quality and support, not to mention the overhead involved. If you're going to compare yourself to Apple, you need to start by defining exactly what it is they do. I guarantee it is a lot more than simply mounting a motherboard and plugging things in.

Support is unrelated to the computer itself. One can sell support independently of the computer. Let's focus on the computers.

It seems like you are suggesting the people at Apple are not building mere computers, but magical machines that are somehow better than all other computers.

Suppose Apple builds a computer and someone else builds a computer with the same parts. Could you tell the difference in a blinded test? Could you tell the difference by looking at the results of benchmarks from each computer?

not daSkeptic · Nov 12, 2009

rwp said:
Support is unrelated to the computer itself. One can sell support independently of the computer. Let's focus on the computers.

Support is not unrelated. The costs of providing support generally have an impact on the ultimate price of the machine. If you're not providing support to the people for whom you build a computer, then you're not doing the same thing as Apple.

It seems like you are suggesting the people at Apple are not building mere computers, but magical machines that are somehow better than all other computers.

Not at all. I'm merely stating the fact that a well-funded manufacturing company with a purpose-built factory will generally have higher standards and do significantly more than an individual working out of their home.

Suppose Apple builds a computer and someone else builds a computer with the same parts. Could you tell the difference in a blinded test? Could you tell the difference by looking at the results of benchmarks from each computer?

Assuming the exact same parts put together in the exact same way under the exact same conditions and running the exact same benchmarks within the exact same software environment .... no, I don't think anyone would likely be able to tell the difference. But can you actually match Apple to that degree?

TriskettheKid · Nov 12, 2009

daSkeptic said:
Support is not unrelated. The costs of providing support generally have an impact on the ultimate price of the machine. If you're not providing support to the people for whom you build a computer, then you're not doing the same thing as Apple.

Honestly, I don't understand why.

I put together my own rig. I can't think of a single part that went into it (save for maybe the optical drive...but those are so cheap anyway it's not a big deal if there's an issue) that does NOT come with customer support that is above and beyond what I've gotten at large-scale manufacturers (Apple, Dell, etc).

Yet it's not like the computer on the whole cost the same as a significantly weaker Apple computer. Just how much does the support cost?

If I remember correctly, Apple doesn't provide that much support, unless you pay extra for it. Something like a 1yr warranty and 90 days of Phone Support. If you pay the extra amount (something around $150 or so for computers), you get 3 years of phone and 3 years of warranty.

I mean, really? That's it?

My graphics cards alone have life warranties, with 24/7 phone support for as long as the company exists. Same with my RAM.

Customer service costs can't raise the price that much, can they?

Not at all. I'm merely stating the fact that a well-funded manufacturing company with a purpose-built factory will generally have higher standards and do significantly more than an individual working out of their home.

In terms of in-house design? Maybe.

In terms of build quality? Hard to beat the individual knowing what he's doing.

Factories aren't as good at mass-producing the more intricate stuff.

Assuming the exact same parts put together in the exact same way under the exact same conditions and running the exact same benchmarks within the exact same software environment .... no, I don't think anyone would likely be able to tell the difference. But can you actually match Apple to that degree?

Could you clarify?

not daSkeptic · Nov 12, 2009

TriskettheKid said:
Customer service costs can't raise the price that much, can they?

How much would it cost you personally to support a person for 90-days if they needed it? How much would it cost you to replace any parts that failed within one-year?

In terms of build quality? Hard to beat the individual knowing what he's doing.

Factories aren't as good at mass-producing the more intricate stuff.

I'm assuming by this response that you are privy to the details of Apple's production operations? You know to what you are comparing the average individual?

Could you clarify?

I thought it was rather clear. Can an individual working from their home match Apple's manufacturing point for point?

TriskettheKid · Nov 12, 2009

daSkeptic said:
How much would it cost you personally to support a person for 90-days if they needed it? How much would it cost you to replace any parts that failed within one-year?

I honestly don't know.

I'm just saying that there are other companies out there that give me 24/7 phone support, and depending on the product, 5yr-Life warranties. For free.

I mean, just how much can it cost? Apple charges $169, for example, to get support for 3 years.

I'd really like to know, because I think it'd be interesting to see how much of the price of the parts I've bought is actually coming from support costs.

I'm assuming by this response that you are privy to the details of Apple's production operations? You know to what you are comparing the average individual?

I don't know, and that was the point.

If we're talking about manufacturing, something like the case itself, yeah, Apple may do a better job than a guy in his garage.

Other than that, I'd probably take a guy in his garage. So long as we're talking about desktops.

Laptops, it's usually best to stick to a manufacturer.

I thought it was rather clear. Can an individual working from their home match Apple's manufacturing point for point?

It honestly depends.

If, again, we're talking about building your own case, then maybe not.

If we're talking about putting the rig together, yeah, a person can do a better job.

rwp · Nov 12, 2009

daSkeptic said:
Support is not unrelated. The costs of providing support generally have an impact on the ultimate price of the machine. If you're not providing support to the people for whom you build a computer, then you're not doing the same thing as Apple.

Support can be sold seperately and generate its own income. I don't mean to ignore it completely; I wish to focus first on the actual computers they sell first, and establish that someone else (company or individual) can make the same machine.

daSkeptic said:
Not at all. I'm merely stating the fact that a well-funded manufacturing company with a purpose-built factory will generally have higher standards and do significantly more than an individual working out of their home.

Generally speaking, there really is only one way to put any particular combination of components together. The guts of the computers are not made by Apple, but by Intel and others. Apple really just puts it together, the same way the rest of the world does. Open an Apple computer and see for yourself. It is the same on the inside as any other.

It really is very easy to put together a high-power, high-quality machine. I wish I could hang out and show you just how fun and easy it is to build something so amazing.

daSkeptic said:
Assuming the exact same parts put together in the exact same way under the exact same conditions and running the exact same benchmarks within the exact same software environment .... no, I don't think anyone would likely be able to tell the difference. But can you actually match Apple to that degree?

Yes. So can a number of other computer manufacturers whether corporate or individual.

Bill Thompson · Nov 12, 2009

I have heard that people regard the new PC vs MAC ads as being harsh. THey have lost thier cuteness.

I think they are also misleading and untrue and unfair. You do not have to "move all your stuff" to Windows 7. It keeps your files when you install Windows 7 (at least that is my experience). And Microsoft does not have a history of saying "trust me" whenever it roles out a new Operating System. And Microsoft did not roll out new Operating Systems because previous Operating Systems were regarded as being buggy.

I think Apple is scared. I think Apple has been forced into stretching the truth in their ads to make people still regard MACs as better machines and systems.

nota · Nov 12, 2009

rwp said:
Support can be sold seperately and generate its own income. I don't mean to ignore it completely; I wish to focus first on the actual computers they sell first, and establish that someone else (company or individual) can make the same machine.

Generally speaking, there really is only one way to put any particular combination of components together. The guts of the computers are not made by Apple, but by Intel and others. Apple really just puts it together, the same way the rest of the world does. Open an Apple computer and see for yourself. It is the same on the inside as any other.

It really is very easy to put together a high-power, high-quality machine. I wish I could hang out and show you just how fun and easy it is to build something so amazing.

Originally Posted by daSkeptic
Assuming the exact same parts put together in the exact same way under the exact same conditions and running the exact same benchmarks within the exact same software environment .... no, I don't think anyone would likely be able to tell the difference. But can you actually match Apple to that degree?

Yes. So can a number of other computer manufacturers whether corporate or individual.

yes you can have the very same spec machine or better if over clocked
the only real diff is the $1500 or so you did not have to over pay apple
and any up grades will also cost you far less too

nobody has answered my question
mac fanboys
is it the apple O/S that you think is better and worth the extra costs
or is the same chips and cards put in a apple box really worth the extra costs

btw can an apple be over clocked like a intel box can
or is the apple bios locked ????

dtugg · Nov 12, 2009

I think that Apple has been stretching the truth in their ads for years. Since the release of Windows 7, it's become downright ridiculous.

not daSkeptic · Nov 12, 2009

I had a lengthy response all typed up and ready to go, and then I realized it's pointless. Myself and others have spent a great deal of time trying to educate people about the business issues involved in this subject, but few seem to want to hear it. Instead they want to focus on technical specs. Fine. Argue to your heart's content about who has the faster processor. Be ignorant of a major part of the puzzle. I'm done.

dtugg · Nov 12, 2009

I think the "business" of it is that Apple, especially for the Mac Pro, is ripping people off. Sure there is some added value of having a ready built system from a trusted vendor with support, but nobody else charges anywhere near 200%+ of the sum of the (retail) prices of the individual components for their computers.

rustypouch · Nov 12, 2009

daSkeptic said:
I had a lengthy response all typed up and ready to go, and then I realized it's pointless. Myself and others have spent a great deal of time trying to educate people about the business issues involved in this subject, but few seem to want to hear it. Instead they want to focus on technical specs. Fine. Argue to your heart's content about who has the faster processor. Be ignorant of a major part of the puzzle. I'm done.

For the business issues, Apple has done a brilliant job in creating a fanbase, and increasing the percieved value of the products among their supporters. Apple's marketing department is very impressive. It's a great business model, convincing people to pay more and get less.

In the example dtugg posted, the Apple is $950 more than a comparable Dell. Is a prettier, slightly smaller case and increased battery life worth $950?

rwp · Nov 12, 2009

daSkeptic said:
I had a lengthy response all typed up and ready to go, and then I realized it's pointless. Myself and others have spent a great deal of time trying to educate people about the business issues involved in this subject, but few seem to want to hear it. Instead they want to focus on technical specs. Fine. Argue to your heart's content about who has the faster processor. Be ignorant of a major part of the puzzle. I'm done.

If you happen to come back, would you be willing to break down the value of a Mac Pro in itemized dollars? Where does the money go (in your estimation)?

http://www.apple.com/macpro/

Here's what the $2499.00 USD version comes with:

computer
keyboard
mouse
90 days support
1-year hardware warranty
snow leopard os

If there is anything I am missing for that price, please feel free to include it in your estimate.

UnbelievingDwindler · Nov 13, 2009

I've been a Windows/Linux user for years and I recently bought a used Mac mini off of craigslist and I love it. Its small, low power and has firewire/bluetooth.

I do occasionally become frustrated when I can't figure something out and have to resort to Google(I still haven't been able to make list view the system wide default for finder), but I would probably have similar experiences switching had I been a Mac user moving to Windows/Linux.

Apple PC's might be more expensive but they do have superior support IMHO. I've only had to call Apple a few times for support but each time it has been a pleasurable experience. I had issues with an Airport that I purchased for a client once and the Apple tech was friendly, knowledgeable and competent. I have almost NEVER had the same luck with Windows tech support. I spent 3 hours on hold with a clients ISP and then Dlink trying to figure out how to change their routers lan subnet from 192.168.0 to 192.168.1 before I finally stumbled across the setting myself. I think because Apple makes the hardware AND software this allows them to control the user experience better.

Another thing regarding the price issue is that Mac OSX is based on the worlds most secure operating system OpenBSD and Mac users will have to pay lessto remove viruses/malware or reinstall operating system. Some of my Windows clients call me twice a year for this service.

Mac vs PC

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