• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Mac vs PC

You can't have the first without the second. If usage rights were not limited, nobody would pay. They would just take a thing and use it.



Once again, copyright is a monopoly. In fact it's the whole point.


I am ok with a book I buy being my property
but I have no rights to make more copys

but apple is try to get away with far more
like telling me I can only read the book on even numbered sundays
outside in the sun while standing
they can print that on the cover
that doesNOT mean I will follow THEIR RULES
or that their rules are fair, just, or even legal or sane

and in the real world has any user ever anywhere been charged with
such a silly over reaching power and profit grab violation
NOTE not sell or public in any way just a home private use deal
in violation of the weasel words on a cover of any software
 
I am ok with a book I buy being my property
but I have no rights to make more copys

but apple is try to get away with far more
like telling me I can only read the book on even numbered sundays
outside in the sun while standing
they can print that on the cover
that doesNOT mean I will follow THEIR RULES
or that their rules are fair, just, or even legal or sane
The above argument is so flawed in so many ways that it's not even worth replying to. We're not talking about books. We're talking about software which has an entirely different set of mechanics.

and in the real world has any user ever anywhere been charged with
such a silly over reaching power and profit grab violation
NOTE not sell or public in any way just a home private use deal
in violation of the weasel words on a cover of any software
Whether or not someone has been prosecuted is irrelevant to whether or not something is illegal. I have never been prosecuted for jay-walking. Jay-walking is still illegal.

You might want to familiarize yourself with copyright law and the legal precedents set in the many many lawsuits over such in regards to software.

Mac OSX requiring you only use it on Apple hardware is not illegal. It is not illegal to make a profit. Nor is it anywhere near "anti-trust", as Apple does not have a monopoly on operating systems.
 
Copyright has absolutely nothing to do with it. Copyright law is only concerned with distribution. That's why it's called copyright - right to copy - and not How You Get to Use My Stuff.
Actually, copyright law has everything to do with it. You might wish to familiarize yourself with the body of legal precedent on the subject, as to use a piece of software, you must copy it. The terms under which you are allowed to copy it are set out in the EULA. Failing to follow those terms, and proceeding to copy the software anyway (even into RAM for normal operation of the software) is a breach of copyright.
Where the issue of hackintosh legality came up was where some guy was selling them.
Selling them wasn't the only issue. Breach of the EULA (using the OS on a non-Apple hardware platform) was also an issue.

Outside of that, it's like the tag on your mattress. It's not actually illegal to remove those tags from your own mattress. And even if it is (honestly, it isn't) there's no mattress police.
It's not even remotely like that. There isn't a "copyright police" either, but it's still against copyright law to use someone's copyrighted material without their express permission.
 
... weasel words on a cover of any software

If you truly feel this way about such notices, why would you still buy the product? Nobody's forcing you. Vote with your wallet. File a complaint with the appropriate regulatory body if it'll make you feel better. But if you do buy it, you cannot claim you weren't warned. If the notice turns out to denote a legal practice and it comes back to bite you, the fault will be entirely yours. It's up to you whether you're willing to take that risk.
 
If you truly feel this way about such notices, why would you still buy the product? Nobody's forcing you. Vote with your wallet. File a complaint with the appropriate regulatory body if it'll make you feel better. But if you do buy it, you cannot claim you weren't warned. If the notice turns out to denote a legal practice and it comes back to bite you, the fault will be entirely yours. It's up to you whether you're willing to take that risk.

get real there is no none ZERO risk
unless you are reselling converted units
or sell some copy of software
enforcement of the stupid EULA's
is simplely not economic or practical


laws are made by the rich by bribing the law makers
thats why we have the best system money can buy
but the over tilt to the CORPs must be stoped
 
Actually, copyright law has everything to do with it. You might wish to familiarize yourself with the body of legal precedent on the subject, as to use a piece of software, you must copy it. The terms under which you are allowed to copy it are set out in the EULA. Failing to follow those terms, and proceeding to copy the software anyway (even into RAM for normal operation of the software) is a breach of copyright.
Selling them wasn't the only issue. Breach of the EULA (using the OS on a non-Apple hardware platform) was also an issue.

It's not even remotely like that. There isn't a "copyright police" either, but it's still against copyright law to use someone's copyrighted material without their express permission.

when their sales agent takes the cash for the dish
that unit is no longer their property
and they did express permission by selling it to use it
restrictions on private use are totally unenforceable
and in this case immoral too
 
get real there is no none ZERO risk
unless you are reselling converted units
or sell some copy of software
enforcement of the stupid EULA's
is simplely not economic or practical

As I said, it's your choice.
 
when their sales agent takes the cash for the dish
that unit is no longer their property
The physical disk is no longer their property. The software on that disk, however, still belongs to them.
and they did express permission by selling it to use it
They only "expressed permission" by way of the EULA you agreed to. If what you are doing with the software is outside the scope of the EULA, then no, they have not given you permission.
restrictions on private use are totally unenforceable
Really? You have evidence of this? Can you cite case law somewhere?
and in this case immoral too
LOL. Right. Cute little appeal to emotion. Try again.

Please go learn about US copyright law before replying again... This is getting quite ridiculous.
 
Is everyone in this thread actually in the US, or are they just treating copyright as if it was the same everywhere?

There are many countries where EULAs are not legal contracts (unless read and signed prior to the purchase, and the parts that go against the law would still be invalid), and where the act of selling someone a copy automatically gives them permission to take the normal steps needed to use it (such as copying it to an HD and memory) and make backup copies.
 
Is everyone in this thread actually in the US, or are they just treating copyright as if it was the same everywhere?

My comments are limited to the US. I have no knowledge of copyright matters in other countries.
 
Is everyone in this thread actually in the US, or are they just treating copyright as if it was the same everywhere?

There are many countries where EULAs are not legal contracts (unless read and signed prior to the purchase, and the parts that go against the law would still be invalid), and where the act of selling someone a copy automatically gives them permission to take the normal steps needed to use it (such as copying it to an HD and memory) and make backup copies.
My comments, as well, are limited to the US.
 
You completely missed my point. The issue with the platforms they choose is not one of cost, but utility. Trying to spin it as one of cost is typical OS Warz nonsense and has no bearing on operating a business of that scale. Even the proprietary stuff becomes affordable at the scale WETA and ILM operate at.

Are you saying cost is not a significant factor to a business? I understand your point about the utility of the platform but to deny that cost is not also a significant factor to a business is not an argument that reflects reality. Even when economies scale factors come in you still want to minimize your costs to maximize your profits.

If cost was never a factor, All the houses would be still be using SGI workstations (meaning SGI would never have gone out of the workstation business) or hang them all and purchase Cray supercomuters.
 
Are you saying cost is not a significant factor to a business? I understand your point about the utility of the platform but to deny that cost is not also a significant factor to a business is not an argument that reflects reality. Even when economies scale factors come in you still want to minimize your costs to maximize your profits.

I am not asserting that cost isn't a significant factor to businesses. I'm stating flatly that the way a business calculates cost is different than someone going to a computer store and purchasing a system. This is a constant argument I see people getting wrong on the "it's free!" side when talking about open-source, as well as going too far with the "better TCO" side when talking about closed-source. The reality is somewhere between, and when the proprietary considerations we're talking about are very high-end and individually costly (like the SGI machines), the confusion gets even worse and the argument seems to assume that cost goes up proportionally to individual unit costs instead of several factors.

Yes, maximizing profit is important, but the factors that go into maximizing overall profits are a whole load more complex than the "guy in a computer shop" perspective you're seeming to expect me to take for granted.

If cost was never a factor, All the houses would be still be using SGI workstations (meaning SGI would never have gone out of the workstation business) or hang them all and purchase Cray supercomuters.

You really do have no clue. Why assume that I'm saying cost is never a factor? Arguing against that strawman is easy.

First off, SGI is still selling graphics workstations (as BOXX Technologies), and they sell those workstations with either Windows or Linux installed for use in high-end graphics work, depending on customer needs. SGI didn't get "out of the workstation business" at all, they experienced a period where they were all-of-the-sudden faced with a gradually-declining monopoly on high-end graphics capability due to maintaining an antiquated platform (the MIPS chips) and later building their systems on a marginal platform (Itanium chips), and only recently switching to a more mainstream platform in order to compete. Their lack of competitiveness wasn't the software, it was the hardware, due primarily to x86 chips having adopted the huge improvements AMD brought to the market along with the innovation Intel was able to implement in its chips, both of which blew all other workstation chips out of the water (yes, Apple fans, it blew the PPC chips away as well)-- so much so that SGI, after going through chapter 11 a couple years ago, switched their build platform to... any guesses?

Second off, Crays would suck for the work these 3D shops need.

Third, another company who is a good example of one that sells very costly machines at prices the average joe would balk at would be Sun, and yet their systems are in use all over and you probably don't even know it. The reason why you (or someone else reading) might not know it is because the Sun systems are mostly in use where they actually provide a value despite the sticker price, and that is very much not your desktop at home. While their prices would seem outrageously high for someone to use a Sun Solaris workstation as their home computer (though I'm sure there are people who do), Sun actually does just fine selling its workstations and servers to the markets that get optimal utility from their product, and those who have the scale sufficient to require the Sun systems actually gain value above and beyond the sticker price of the machines themselves. Compare a Sun Solaris system price to that of a Dell system running either Linux or Windows, and dollars to donuts you're going to find the Dell to be significantly cheaper, and while Dell systems certainly sell more volume when you look at NOCs, teleco switching centers, or network datacenters you're very often going to find a large number of Solaris machines chugging away. The reason for this is because you'll find that despite the much greater cost per machine, the value derived from the systems and the life span of operability makes the system an overall benefit in terms of profits, but this is dependent on the scale of the operation for it to work out that way-- while the relatively small company network I manage wouldn't benefit from the cost of a Sun system running things (though there was a point where that was debatable), a large NOC actually gets a much greater benefit from running the Sun systems and will see the benefit much sooner than would a smaller operation.

To make a long story short, scale matters a great deal when determining TCO, and the common mistake of confusing price with value is one you (uruk) have made in your assertions.
 
Third, another company who is a good example of one that sells very costly machines at prices the average joe would balk at would be Sun, and yet their systems are in use all over and you probably don't even know it. The reason why you (or someone else reading) might not know it is because the Sun systems are mostly in use where they actually provide a value despite the sticker price, and that is very much not your desktop at home. While their prices would seem outrageously high for someone to use a Sun Solaris workstation as their home computer (though I'm sure there are people who do), Sun actually does just fine selling its workstations and servers to the markets that get optimal utility from their product, and those who have the scale sufficient to require the Sun systems actually gain value above and beyond the sticker price of the machines themselves. Compare a Sun Solaris system price to that of a Dell system running either Linux or Windows, and dollars to donuts you're going to find the Dell to be significantly cheaper, and while Dell systems certainly sell more volume when you look at NOCs, teleco switching centers, or network datacenters you're very often going to find a large number of Solaris machines chugging away. The reason for this is because you'll find that despite the much greater cost per machine, the value derived from the systems and the life span of operability makes the system an overall benefit in terms of profits, but this is dependent on the scale of the operation for it to work out that way-- while the relatively small company network I manage wouldn't benefit from the cost of a Sun system running things (though there was a point where that was debatable), a large NOC actually gets a much greater benefit from running the Sun systems and will see the benefit much sooner than would a smaller operation.

To make a long story short, scale matters a great deal when determining TCO, and the common mistake of confusing price with value is one you (uruk) have made in your assertions.

This is certainly true where I work. Mostly SUN heavy iron, and what few racks we have dell systems in get migrated off their linux platform to Solaris, usually via Solaris Zones running on Blades.

I have yet to see anything from linux or windows that matches up with the neat things you can do with ZFS, Zones, and Trusted Extentions.

To Mac's credit they did adopt ZFS support in 10.5. It wasn't a full version (you had to get the from the ADC download pages,) and was basically a novelty that was never used.

But then, this has nothing to do with the mac vs. pc arguments. The average home user has no need for the ability to script virtual machines to spin up at indication of high traffic load while being locked down to X variables to avoid system strain, register themselves in dns, add themselves to a load balancing pool, save a zfs snapshot of the filesystem off to network storage and spin themselves down, unregistering everything they did in the network when load returns.

Or do they?

:D

brb i need to go home and code for a bit...
 
You really do have no clue. Why assume that I'm saying cost is never a factor? Arguing against that strawman is easy.
You completely missed my point. The issue with the platforms they choose is not one of cost, but utility. Trying to spin it as one of cost is typical OS Warz nonsense and has no bearing on operating a business of that scale. Even the proprietary stuff becomes affordable at the scale WETA and ILM operate at.

A company is always going to go with whatever system that does what they need at the least amount of cost they can get away with. As you mention later in your post Telecos, datacenters and Network backbone and backhaulers use Sun systems and the like because
consumer level systems are insufficient for thier use. But then we were not talking about that type of heavy duty use in Renderfarms. Render farms are not Sun servers/workstations because the modified consumer level systems, with opensource and proprietary software are cheaper and sufficent for thier use. (I know rackmount and blade setups aren't consumer level, But the motherboard and cpu configurations are not that far off.)
Heres and article about SOHO studios using dells for thier renderfarms.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/26/soho_rendering_supercomputer/

Matter of fact here is a link where you can create yourown little renderfarm using consummer level workstations. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1847365,00.asp
Not something you would see at a big house or third party provider but this is where it all started.

then there is this:http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/render-farm-node,2340.html
And the prices of the rackmount systems are on a par with an average desktop system you'd get at the local computer store.


First off, SGI is still selling graphics workstations (as BOXX Technologies), ~snip~
BOXX Technologies is not SGI. SGI does not own BOXX Technologies. SGI had BOXX rebrand some of thier units into SGI Virtu VS workstations. And these are used mainly for visualization in the engineering and R&D field.

Second off, Crays would suck for the work these 3D shops need.
Some of the first CGI used in the industry were rendered with supercomputers. Pixar's early shorts were rendered on Crays. "The Adventures of Wally B" and the CGI effects for "The Last Starfighter" were rendered on XMP-1s. Same with the Genesis wave effect in "The Wrath of Kahn". mainly because that was the only computer system around at the time capable of the calculations necessary.

And renderfarms are essentially a massively parallel processing computer system which is exactly what Cray or Big Blue type supercomputers are. The reasons that renderfarms exist is because you have multiple processors attacking a scene file. A typical supercomputer has upwards of 65,000 processors attacking an algorythim which what render code is.

To make a long story short, scale matters a great deal when determining TCO, and the common mistake of confusing price with value is one you (uruk) have made in your assertions.
I am not. I was specifically talking about renderfarms and the fact that renderfarms use x86 processors and PC based hardware show that the graphics industry appreciates low cost of hardware and software as well as the scalablity and utility the PC based systems offer. If utilty was weighed over cost, practically everything would be proprietary.

That's why all the houses use Maya. It is cheaper to purchase the animation software from a third party source than to pay a team of programers to write all your tools in house. Surely proprietary tools would be everything you need and want, but it would be too expensive.
 
You lost credibility when you referenced TheReg, ExtremeTech, and TomsHardware. Those are hobbyist sites. As for the BOXX Tech rebrands, those are the cheapest SGI machines you can get, and where they put most of their sales until their "re-emergence" this year. Suffice to say, your claim that they're out of the market was false.

GreNME said:
To make a long story short, scale matters a great deal when determining TCO, and the common mistake of confusing price with value is one you (uruk) have made in your assertions.
I am not. I was specifically talking about renderfarms and the fact that renderfarms use x86 processors and PC based hardware show that the graphics industry appreciates low cost of hardware and software as well as the scalablity and utility the PC based systems offer. If utilty was weighed over cost, practically everything would be proprietary.

Yes, you are confusing value and cost regardless of how many times you assert otherwise. You're still arguing this ridiculous false dichotomy of utility versus cost. That you keep bringing it up as a strawman against what I'm saying shows you still don't have a clue to what I'm explaining. Cost is one factor, but cost isn't the only factor nor is the sticker price the sole factor in TCO-- Total Cost of Ownership. When factoring for profit, experienced purchasers are going to worry about TCO and not sticker price, which you still seem to consistently assert is related to sticker price.

That's why all the houses use Maya. It is cheaper to purchase the animation software from a third party source than to pay a team of programers to write all your tools in house. Surely proprietary tools would be everything you need and want, but it would be too expensive.

A ridiculous assertion on your part. Re-inventing the mousetrap each time you need one is wasteful and costly. Stop insisting that everything has to be so extreme for your rhetoric to not get caught up in its own confusing dissonance.
 
Well I will apologize for the douchey earlier posts by me, but I think for me my basic point still stands. I was initially discussing my own pipeline and why I chose it. Getting into the OS wars nonsense really didn't help, but it is ridiculous to attempt to portray every Mac user as some hipster that doesn't really do anything.

I bring the point that I use my Mac for CGI and other graphics purposes and immediately find a response effectively telling me that I am lying and I don't know anything about CG. Underscored by someone telling me that I won't be able to find the software for OSX that I use on OSX. A rather ridiculous statement.

Also one that completely ignores that I have multiple CG programs divided between to parts of the same system. Coupled with a third party Renderman compliant rendering solution, the building of CG becomes my main focus. That is to say that for me it is more important what platform I construct things on and less what I render them on.
 
You lost credibility when you referenced TheReg, ExtremeTech, and TomsHardware. Those are hobbyist sites. As for the BOXX Tech rebrands, those are the cheapest SGI machines you can get, and where they put most of their sales until their "re-emergence" this year. Suffice to say, your claim that they're out of the market was false.
I know TheReg, ExtremeTech and TomsHardware are hobbiest sites. Early in house renderfarms started with the same type of tools and hardware these sites use in thier demonstrations. As the industry grew so did the technololgy. Present renderfarms still use commercially available Intel and AMD processors and heavily modified linux OSs. And the rendermangers are being developed by third party companies.
Heck, even Sun renderfarm technology uses AMD Opteron systems.

And SGI do not make graphics workstations, But yes they still sell them. They subcontract BOXX Technologies to build the stations under thier lable.

Yes, you are confusing value and cost regardless of how many times you assert otherwise. You're still arguing this ridiculous false dichotomy of utility versus cost. That you keep bringing it up as a strawman against what I'm saying shows you still don't have a clue to what I'm explaining. Cost is one factor, but cost isn't the only factor nor is the sticker price the sole factor in TCO-- Total Cost of Ownership. When factoring for profit, experienced purchasers are going to worry about TCO and not sticker price, which you still seem to consistently assert is related to sticker price.
If makes you feel better to think that I still don't understand what you are saying then so be it. But I do. I agree with you that sticker price is not the sole factor in corprate decisions.
And I understand the the total cost of ownership concept.


A ridiculous assertion on your part. Re-inventing the mousetrap each time you need one is wasteful and costly. Stop insisting that everything has to be so extreme for your rhetoric to not get caught up in its own confusing dissonance.
But hey if you don't believe me ask someone at ILM thier philosophy for what they use and why.
I have read several interviews and articles in trade magazines concerning the software and hardware they use and thier reasons for using them. Do archive searches at Computer Graphic World, Cinefx, and whatever Graphics industry publication or newsletter you wish.
 
Last edited:
But then, this has nothing to do with the mac vs. pc arguments. The average home user has no need for the ability to ...

In a way it does. Macs and PCs are not exclusively used by, nor marketed to, the average home user. Both platforms sometimes find themselves lined up along side Sun, SGI, and others when a company is making decisions.
 

Back
Top Bottom