• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Mac vs PC

Since the late 1980's I have been using PCs at work (except for the occassional UNIX box) and Macs at home. Both have had their share of crashes but the PC's crashes have always been more inexplicable and insoluble to me. I used to be much more of a gamer so did feel cheated by the shortage of hard core Mac games.

I understood Mac OS so much better that I didn't need IT support to help me through the challenging times. The Windows file structure with all its arcane files and directories and .dlls - I just have no idea what all that crap is. I still don't understand what the "run" directory does. Vestiges of programs that I uninstalled in 2006 still haunt me once in awhile, with no idea where the files reside.

I must admit that Mac OSX introduced a similar level of arcane to the Mac as well - with all these permissions and user folders and this thing called a Library and all these other directories that reside in weird places - I feel like I don't know what's in my Mac any more either. But by now I'm just so much more comfortable and productive in Mac OS that I am with Windows or Linux that I don't have a good reason to switch. As someone posted above, it just seems so much simpler to use peripherals and networks and install programs that I can spend more time doing what I want to do and less time tinkering with the computer, which is what I hate about computers.
 
Like I said earlier, I'll show a comparison of a computer built to order. But it will have a Core i7 processor instead of a Xeon. But it really doesn't matter because they are virtually identical. I just don't want to waste my time only to have someone say that they are not the same processor.

That fine, jimtron?

As long as the Core i7 is not inferior performancewise in any way.
As far as I can tell, this is what's in the MP (see: W3520):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon#3500-series_.22Bloomfield.22
 
Last edited:
OK, these are from www.cyberpowerpc.com

This one is one that I specked as close as possible to a Mac Pro. It came out to $1339, almost $1000 cheaper than a Mac Pro from Amazon. Note that I added a high end sound card, a firewire card, a bluetooth adapter, and a wireless keyboard and mouse. Also, mine has a 750GB hard drive instead of 640GB. Shipping is free.

* *BASE_PRICE: [+985]
* BUNDLE: None
* BLUETOOTH: USB Bluetooth 2.0 Adapter [+10]
* CD: LG 22X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Dual Layer Drive (BLACK COLOR)
* CD2: NONE
* CAS: NZXT Beta Gaming Mid-Tower Case with See-Thru Window
* CASUPGRADE: NONE
* CS_FAN: Default case fans
* CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-920 2.66 GHz 8M L3 Cache LGA1366
* FAN: Intel LGA1366 Certified CPU Fan & Heatsink
* FREEBIE_RM: None
* FA_HDD: None
* FLASHMEDIA: INTERNAL 12in1 Flash Media Reader/Writer (BLACK COLOR)
* FLOPPY: NONE
* FREEBIE_OS: None
* HDD: Single Hard Drive (750GB SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache 7200RPM HDD [+18])
* HDD2: NONE
* IEEE_CARD: IEEE 1394 CARD AND DRIVER [+19]
* KEYBOARD: Microsoft® Wireless Laser Desktop 6000 w/ Wireless Internet Keyboard & Laser Mouse [+46]
* MOUSE: XtremeGear Optical USB 3 Buttons Gaming Mouse
* MODEM: NONE
* MULTIVIEW: Non-SLI/Non-CrossFireX Mode Supports Multiple Monitors
* MONITOR: NONE
* MONITOR2: NONE
* MOTHERBOARD: (3-Way SLI Support) EVGA X58 3X SLI LE Intel X58 Chipset SLI/CrossFireX Mainboard Triple-Channel DDR3/1600 SATA RAID w/ GbLAN [+57]
* MEMORY: 3GB (1GBx3) PC1333 DDR3 PC3 10666 Triple Channel Memory [-32] (Corsair or Major Brand)
* NETWORK: Onboard Gigabit LAN Network
* OVERCLOCK: No Overclocking
* OS: Microsoft® Windows® 7 Home Premium [+104] (64-bit Edition)
* OS_UPGRADE: None
* POWERSUPPLY: 800 Watts Power Supplies (CyberPowerPC XF800S Performance ATX 2.0 Power - Quad SLI Ready)
* PRINTER: None
* PRINTER_CABLE: None
* RUSH: NO; READY TO SHIP IN 5~10 BUSINESS DAYS
* SERVICE: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT
* SOUND: Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series PCI Express Sound Card [+199]
* SPEAKERS: 600Watts PMPO Subwoofer Stereo Speakers [+15]
* TEMP: NONE
* TVRC: None
* USB: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
* USBHD: NONE
* VIDEOCAMERA: NONE
* VIDEO: NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GT 512MB 16X PCI Express [-82] (Major Brand Powered by NVIDIA)
* VIDEO2: None
* VIDEO3: None
* VC_PHYSX: NONE
* VC_GAMES: None
* WNC: NONE
* _PRICE: (+1339)
* _view_: d

And here is one that I specked as good as possible for $2299 (actually came to $2296). Same as above except a better heat sink, 12 GB RAM, dual ATI Radeon HD 5750 cards, 2x150GB VelociRaptor drives (RAID 0) for OS drive, 2x1.5TB drives (RAID 1), for data drive.

* *BASE_PRICE: [+985]
* BUNDLE: None
* BLUETOOTH: USB Bluetooth 2.0 Adapter [+10]
* CD: LG 22X DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Dual Layer Drive (BLACK COLOR)
* CD2: NONE
* CAS: NZXT Beta Gaming Mid-Tower Case with See-Thru Window
* CASUPGRADE: NONE
* CS_FAN: Default case fans
* CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-920 2.66 GHz 8M L3 Cache LGA1366
* FAN: Asetek Liquid CPU Cooling System (Extreme Cooling Performance + Extreme Silent at 20dBA) [+54]
* FREEBIE_RM: None
* FA_HDD: None
* FLASHMEDIA: INTERNAL 12in1 Flash Media Reader/Writer (BLACK COLOR)
* FLOPPY: NONE
* FREEBIE_OS: None
* HDD: Extreme Performance (RAID-0) with 2 Identical Hard Drives [+37] (300GB (150GBx2) Gaming Western Digital VelociRaptor 10,000RPM SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 16MB Cache WD1500HLFS [+272])
* HDD2: High Performance with Data Security (RAID-1) with 2 Identical Hard Drives [+94] (1.5TB (1.5TBx2) SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 32MB Cache 7200RPM HDD [+184])
* IEEE_CARD: IEEE 1394 CARD AND DRIVER [+19]
* KEYBOARD: Microsoft® Wireless Laser Desktop 6000 w/ Wireless Internet Keyboard & Laser Mouse [+46]
* MOUSE: XtremeGear Optical USB 3 Buttons Gaming Mouse
* MODEM: NONE
* MULTIVIEW: Non-SLI/Non-CrossFireX Mode Supports Multiple Monitors
* MONITOR: NONE
* MONITOR2: NONE
* MOTHERBOARD: (3-Way SLI Support) EVGA X58 3X SLI LE Intel X58 Chipset SLI/CrossFireX Mainboard Triple-Channel DDR3/1600 SATA RAID w/ GbLAN [+57]
* MEMORY: 12GB (2GBx6) PC1333 DDR3 PC3 10666 Triple Channel Memory [+167] (Corsair or Major Brand)
* NETWORK: Onboard Gigabit LAN Network
* OVERCLOCK: No Overclocking
* OS: NONE - FORMAT HARD DRIVE ONLY
* OS_UPGRADE: None
* POWERSUPPLY: 800 Watts Power Supplies (CyberPowerPC XF800S Performance ATX 2.0 Power - Quad SLI Ready)
* PRINTER: None
* PRINTER_CABLE: None
* RUSH: NO; READY TO SHIP IN 5~10 BUSINESS DAYS
* SERVICE: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT
* SOUND: Creative Labs SB X-FI Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series PCI Express Sound Card [+199]
* SPEAKERS: 600Watts PMPO Subwoofer Stereo Speakers [+15]
* TEMP: NONE
* TVRC: None
* USB: Built-in USB 2.0 Ports
* USBHD: NONE
* VIDEOCAMERA: NONE
* VIDEO: ATI Radeon HD 5750 1GB DDR5 16X PCIe Video Card [DirectX 11 Support] (Major Brand Powered by ATI)
* VIDEO2: ATI Radeon HD 5750 1GB DDR5 16X PCIe Video Card [DirectX 11 Support] [+157] (Major Brand Powered by ATI)
* VIDEO3: None
* VC_PHYSX: NONE
* VC_GAMES: None
* WNC: NONE
* _PRICE: (+2296)
* _view_: d

I dunno about you but I think it is clear which is a better machine.
 
Last edited:
Okay, everyone stop for just a moment. Take a breath.

There, doesn't that feel better?


The reality is that on the desktop market, Apple really doesn't compete on either the business or the consumer level as far as providing cheap and versatile machines. Apple doesn't even seem to want to, and that's fine. What Apple sells is more of a "whole package" thing that, while there are indeed PC system builders who do similar or the same, just isn't the case with the more modular and varied PC market. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for Apple as a company, either, since the fact that they don't have to compete on an equal product they have a lot more tight control over the build specifications of their machines, lending to a "tighter ship" perception of the product from a consumer perspective. That Apple indeed does also spend to over-engineer some things on their systems also polishes their products as single appliance units instead of machines that need to be tweaked or have 3rd-party stuff added to operate like a user might want. Again, this isn't a bad thing, though it does have the result of raising the price to the consumer-- something that a "large enough" and fairly dedicated number of consumers see as a value add that has little or no equivalent elsewhere. These factors have come together to establish and maintain a very tight and strong brand loyalty to many customers who buy Apple products (but not all of them).

PCs, on the other hand, are a more nebulous and vague creature, ranging from piecemeal systems from hobby or enthusiasts to the "full system" offerings of the big-box sellers (Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.). That there's such a wide range of different tastes or models is due largely to the IBM clone market that spawned the modern desktop PC market, and that system where different vendors are making similar-yet-slightly-different hardware has pushed component makers, system builders, and software developers to have to try to keep up with the fastest and newest as well as the older and less speedy components, which means a whole of lot factoring in for lowest-common-denominators in their processes that a less varied system wouldn't have to face. There have been some system builders who have tried to go to a more "tighter ship" build model, and to varied degrees of success-- one could argue that Dell and HP have found a fairly reasonable balance of propriety and variety (ability to upgrade with 3rd-party components), while we could view Sony or IBM as having gone a bit too far on different occasions, resulting in premium systems that lock customers into their proprietary solutions. Suffice to say, the PC clone-bred market doesn't take well to too much proprietary hardware in their systems. Further, the varied competition from multiple manufacturers has promoted a great deal of the advancement in RAM, CPU, and video card technologies, with competing vendors attempting to tweak even a slight advantage over their counterparts. This has, in essence, been both one of the single greatest benefits in the distributed market and one of the greater hurdles for the operating system and software developers in a rapidly-changing and advancing market. Brand loyalty has still managed to surface in this market as well, though unlike Apple's "full system" brand loyalty the PC market version tends to focus more on manufacturers (AMD, nVidia) or development companies (Microsoft, various Linux, Blizzard Entertainment), with loyalty to system builders (Dell, HP) being less prevalent at the consumer level (but present at the business level).

It's that brand loyalty on both sides that's really propagated many myths, outright lies, distortions, and uneven comparisons between the Mac and PC crowds over the years, most notably the meme "Mac vs. PC" in the first place. After all, Macintosh computers are PCs, just PCs of a different make and model-- this has become even more evident in the past few years, as Apple has shifted their internal hardware platform to the same architecture as the rest of the PC market. Naturally, what the comparison really implies is a Macintosh computer running MacOS versus a non-Apple computer running Windows, effectively ignoring the steadily-growing base of Linux users out there, lumping all system builders into one monolithic category (along with the piecemeal vendors), and continuing the lack of any real 1::1 comparison of qualities. Even now, you're rarely going to be able to make a 1::1 comparison of hardware or software, and that's specifically because Apple still maintains a very tight control over its supply line while the rest of the computer markets have varying degrees of mixed parts versus proprietary systems. Configuring a mid-range Mac computer and a mid-range Dell or HP computer won't yield the same hardware, and debates comparing them delve deep into semantics to hide brand loyalty influence on the arguments (for both sides). Realistically, the hardware between any two comparisons are usually similar enough for a rough, "good enough" comparison outside of brand loyalty pedantry, but there's always enough semantic wiggle-room for brand loyals on both sides to still claim superiority due to the lack of an apples-to-apples comparison.

However, even if there were a very precise 1::1 comparison, another factor that comes into play is one that Apple has been employing at least since the release of the OS X operating system, and one that other software application developers (most notably Adobe) have employed for far longer: optimization during development. To keep it simple (though I'm sure there are plenty here who could go very complex on the topic), when a software writer is building the code for a given software, they can optimize it to a reasonable level of specificity depending on the platform they're writing for, the variation in the abilities of the different hardware it must run on, and the sophistication of the code compiler that converts the code into an executable form. For software developers, this can often provide key advantages when compiling for specific configurations or hardware components-- game developers do this often enough, usually optimizing for video cards. Adobe has notably been optimizing its creative suite of software for years, more often on Apple's hardware than anything else, in particular their G3, G4, and G5 computers. Since Apple has moved to x86 architecture, I'm not sure how much Adobe has optimized for them, but it is known that Adobe optimizes for 64-bit processors on Windows now. Apple has been optimizing their operating system with each new release (so, on practically a yearly basis) with every 2-3 generational updates to the hardware, far more often than their "enemy" Microsoft is known to do so-- this is actually where the "clock speed isn't everything" meme took root, and that idea is a mixture of fact and subjective opinion. Since Apple's advent into x86 computing, however, the amount of optimization that could be done has been limited, since many of their binary (executable) files needed to be backward-compatible to some degree. Apple began facing a similar conundrum to its counterparts in the personal computing field: having to maintain reasonable support for vastly different hardware (in Apple's case, two different architectures). Considering the level of challenge and the fact that there isn't any real history of a slow-down in performance on Macs, it's safe to say that the company handled it pretty well. Microsoft, since the change to Vista, has been working on doing optimizations of its own, the first of which was seen in Vista's Service Pack 1 and the latest of which can be experienced in Windows 7. In fact, Windows 7 has reportedly seen more optimization than was typically done in Windows OS changes, most of which surrounded older code that has been out of use for a while or for more forward-facing technology (like 64-bit computing). Conversely, Apple's newest OS seems to have done much the same as far as sweeping under-the-hood alterations and optimizations, though with less worry about old code (though some subsystems are gone) and also (like Microsoft) tweaking their system to be more forward-centric for things like 64-bit computing. The results for both so far seem to have had positive results.

That very basic run-down on optimization is just to underscore that slight hardware differences aren't always the only thing that can make a fairly big deal out of comparing two systems, as is often done in the Mac vs PC wars. And honestly speaking, Linux and BSD can go further that MacOS or Windows in terms of optimizing, and (Ducky, feel free to correct me here, but) Solaris machines far surpass even Apple when it comes to optimizing their systems for very specific hardware. So, when it comes down to comparing just hardware, the comparisons fall short because the software running on them isn't necessarily a variable factor that could be switched between the hardware with no changes in outcome (in other words, there's nothing to suggest Windows on Apple hardware runs faster than on a PC and vice versa). Comparisons are always inevitably going to be a "total package" (Mac) versus a "compiled package" (PC) and, as such, be limited in scope as far as determining value.

Now, when it comes to dealing with close approximations, then the perceived values begin changing and the obvious brand loyalty factors come back into focus. Comparing a Mac system to a custom-built is going to be missing things like warranties on the system as a whole, but for some this is going to count as a value because they can replace parts separately while to others this is a negative because they don't have the time and/or inclination to try to take their computer apart any time something goes wrong. Comparing Apple Mac builds to big-box system builders (like, for instance, Dell) are going to require like model comparisons even if the semantic hardware specs aren't the same. Case in point: you could compare the lowest-priced iMac to the lowest-priced Dell AiO, though you're going to lose some screen size, and to bump the CPU up to 3.16, the RAM up to 4GB, the video card up to the same model, and including a wireless keyboard/mouse brings the cost to $1035 for the Dell Studio One compared to $1200 for the Apple iMac-- still an obvious lower cost for the Dell AiO PC over the Mac, but there are differences in configuration (like the screen size) that are ultimately going to be a subjective value judgment (are 2" of diagonal space worth nearly $200 US?). Moving to the professional models, the Mac Pro would compare to Dell's Optiplex line of computers, but good luck in getting a similar enough comparison to be meaningful-- Dell's systems are capable of RAID without an add-in card, Apple's systems come with 3D-centric video cards while Dell's with 2D-centric cards, and so on-- though in general the costs for a pro system of fairly reasonable specs are going to come within $100 or so of each other, and in all honestly with machines like that then purpose comes into play in terms of value above a measly few hundred dollars one direction or another. The main point is that arguments from both sides are laced heavily with hyperbole and exaggeration-- while Apple's shift to x86 architecture has made Apple computers competitive, this does not justify claims that Apple computers are cheaper than like systems from non-Apple sources, nor do the configuration differences justify claims that Apple hardware is exorbitantly higher than comparable non-Apple systems. This is brand loyalty at its most obvious.

Now, there are segments of the computing market where Apple has some room for criticism-- in my own field (IT), Apple has very little in the way of support tools for their machines as workstations that are part of a larger inventory, while HP, Dell, IBM and others have significant advantages-- but in terms of retail consumer computing the only real factor between choosing a Mac or a PC is personal taste, and there's nothing wrong with that. If there were really something inherently superior with Macs or PCs, the entire debate would have practically ended at least a decade ago, if not two decades. That arguments still persist in using objective criteria to support subjective opinions in the Mac vs PC battles just supplies more fuel to the fire and more food for the brand loyalties people have.
 
OK, these are from www.cyberpowerpc.com

This one is one that I specked as close as possible to a Mac Pro. It came out to $1339, almost $1000 cheaper than a Mac Pro from Amazon. Note that I added a high end sound card, a firewire card, a bluetooth adapter, and a wireless keyboard and mouse. Also, mine has a 750GB hard drive instead of 640GB. Shipping is free.



And here is one that I specked as good as possible for $2299 (actually came to $2296). Same as above except a better heat sink, 12 GB RAM, dual ATI Radeon HD 5750 cards, 2x150GB VelociRaptor drives (RAID 0) for OS drive, 2x1.5TB drives (RAID 1), for data drive.



I dunno about you but I think it is clear which is a better machine.

Do you have a link to that specific model (the top one)? From the specs in your post, the FW appears to be 400, not 800. We're looking for 4 FW 800 ports. Also, does that sound card have optical in and out ports? It is looking like you can get a PC equiv. for less, but certainly not $1,000 less.

Are there any highly regarded companies like Dell that make MP equivalents for significantly less? I think that would be a more fair comparison as Apple has good reviews for reliability, support, and customer satisfaction.

Regarding "better machines," I found this article at Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cyberpower****ed
 
I'd be curious to see a PC equivalent of a Mac Pro for less money. But truly equivalent (minus the stylish case is fine); FW 800 ports, optical audio, dual ethernet, same number of ram and hard drive slots, etc.
Actually a PC that is spec-ed out with the same level of hardware as a Mac Pro would cost just about the same if not a little more. Dual and quad CPU PC motherboards are not cheap.

I will say though that if you are a gamer or working with 3D Graphics, nine chances out of ten, your rigg will be a PC.

The graphics cards used by gaming PCs and PC based graphic workstations (which are more expensive than Mac Pros, BTW) are more powerful than the cards typicaly used by Macs.

Practically all highend graphics cards are developed first for PC based computers. And as far as I know, Mac does not have anything similar to SLI or Crossfire where you can can install three to four graphics cards in your case to increase graphics performance.( I could be wrong)

Although now that Macs are using Intel processors, the graphic card gap is beginning to close

I think it is also rather odd that Mac (which touts itself as the "computer of the people") does not support gaming anywhere near as well as the PC industry does. The selection of Mac games at the Apple store is pretty sparse compared to the game rack in the PC software isle.

The same is true in the 3D graphics industry. I find this hard to believe since the Mac has been the mainstay of the graphics industry for many years. Autodesk owns nearly all of the major 3d software used today. They own 3d Max (which is arguably the most widely used 3d software) Maya and, recently aquired, Softimage XSI. All these programs are used by the big motion picture production and effects houses today such as Industrial light and magic, Pixar, Digital Domain and soforth and all of thier workstations and render farms are PC or PC/linux based. You will probably only see a Mac sitting in an office desk.

With the execption of 3D Max there are Mac version of the 3D graphics software available but what is available is not the latest revisions. The software is developed first for PC then later ported to Linux and then Mac.
 
The strange thing about these Mac v PC arguments is how rapidly they leave any recognizable reality behind. I've owned about seven or eight PCs in my life, and currently have three that I use actively. Futzing around installing drivers? Yeah, sure--I used to have to do that ten years ago. Those machines long since went to the recycler, though. All three PCs that I work on today are plug'n'play. The idea of spending four hours trying to install a printer is simply mind boggling to me. I can't remember the last time installing a printer took longer than a few seconds. For me, PCs "just work"--and that's just as true of the one I have that runs on Vista as the two I have that run on XP. I don't think any of the three has ever crashed (no, wait, one of the laptops did once--can't remember why) or in any way prevented me from getting on with my work. All this talk of the terrible burdens of working with PCs is like hearing someone claim that that they gave up buying GE lightbulbs because they keep exploding in a mighty fireball that destroys their entire house. I mean, sure, maybe that happened once somewhere, but it just doesn't fit with anything like a recognizable version of reality to me.

I've never owned a Mac, but I've worked quite a bit on ones that belonged to friends and family. They seem nice enough--but I've never found that there was anything significant I could do on a Mac that I couldn't do on a PC. I have friends who swear by Macs, but when I ask them what the advantages are to them of a Mac over a PC the answers are either demonstrably false (the mythical burdens of working with PCs that crash ever ten seconds, say, or some "amazing" thing you can do on a Mac which has, in fact, been standard on PCs since 2001) or completely idiosyncratic ("Mac's just feel more intuitive" is a pretty common one).

The vast majority of users don't need anything more than a very low-end computer. If all you're going to do on your computer is word processing, email, music and video then you can get all that done reliably for substantially less money than the cheapest possible Mac. If it's worth it to you to spend $1000 on the cool styling and Mac's carefully cultivated brand image (I'm a hip, creative type!!) then go ahead, but I don't know why you have to pretend that it's based on some objective assessment of the relative practical merits of the different machines.
 
Do you have a link to that specific model (the top one)?

They are the same model, just configured differently. Here is the base configuration.

From the specs in your post, the FW appears to be 400, not 800. We're looking for 4 FW 800 ports.

I honestly have no idea.

Also, does that sound card have optical in and out ports?

Yes. Here are the specs for it. I don't know jack about audio cards but surely this one is better than the audio on the Mac Pro?

It is looking like you can get a PC equiv. for less, but certainly not $1,000 less.

OK, call it $900.

Are there any highly regarded companies like Dell that make MP equivalents for significantly less? I think that would be a more fair comparison as Apple has good reviews for reliability, support, and customer satisfaction.

I'm sure but I don't really feel like looking. Just go to Dell's website and configure a system with Core i7 920 processor.

Regarding "better machines," I found this article at Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cyberpower****ed

Mkay.

I used a one of their computers for like five years with no real problems. And they do have a three year warranty in case something happens. I believe that is two years longer than Apple.
 
As both a Mac (home) and PC (work) user, I have to agree with Yoink. I can't think of anything I can do on one that I can't do on the other. They both crash, albeit quite rarely and I can't remember the last time I plugged something into either computer that wasn't recognized right away.

My next home computer is a 27" iMac but in all honesty the main reason I'm getting a Mac is for the looks and styling of it and not for any false notion of buying a computer that never crashes or makes everything easier to do.
 
My next home computer is a 27" iMac but in all honesty the main reason I'm getting a Mac is for the looks and styling of it and not for any false notion of buying a computer that never crashes or makes everything easier to do.

If I were in the market for a Mac, or just an all-in-one in general, that's the one I would get. It seems like a pretty good value. I am particularly impressed by the resolution of the screen. I don't think they are any 27" standalone screens with that resolution. A 30" 2560 x 1600 bests it by a little but those are like $1100, at least.
 
If I were in the market for a Mac, or just an all-in-one in general, that's the one I would get. It seems like a pretty good value. I am particularly impressed by the resolution of the screen. I don't think they are any 27" standalone screens with that resolution. A 30" 2560 x 1600 bests it by a little but those are like $1100, at least.

Yeah, it's a beautiful picture. I checked it out at the Mac store. No Blu-ray (seriously, at this price and no Blu-ray option?) though which would have been nice so I could watch a disk while the wife is watching So You Think You Can Dance on the living room TV.
 
Yeah, it's a beautiful picture. I checked it out at the Mac store. No Blu-ray (seriously, at this price and no Blu-ray option?) though which would have been nice so I could watch a disk while the wife is watching So You Think You Can Dance on the living room TV.

Now that you mention that does seem a little odd. This is an option that would cost Apple like $50 (and they, being Apple would charge way more than this). I can't say that this would be a big deal if I wanted to buy it since I have a Blu-ray player (PS3), a very nice TV and no wife to hog it.

But I suppose that's what you get with Apple. Whatever Steve Jobs says is best for you goes.
 
Last edited:
Actually a PC that is spec-ed out with the same level of hardware as a Mac Pro would cost just about the same if not a little more. Dual and quad CPU PC motherboards are not cheap.

As far as I can tell the dual Xeon Mac Pro is somewhat reasonably priced. However, I doubt that very many people have the need for eight cores.

There is no quad CPU Mac Pro.

The one we were discussing is the single CPU Mac Pro.
 
Last edited:
I will say though that if you are a gamer or working with 3D Graphics, nine chances out of ten, your rigg will be a PC.
If you're a gamer, sure. But that has nothing to do with the actual Mac. That has to do with the software developers not attempting to put out a product for a smaller section of the market.

The graphics cards used by gaming PCs and PC based graphic workstations (which are more expensive than Mac Pros, BTW) are more powerful than the cards typicaly used by Macs.

Practically all highend graphics cards are developed first for PC based computers. And as far as I know, Mac does not have anything similar to SLI or Crossfire where you can can install three to four graphics cards in your case to increase graphics performance.( I could be wrong)
You are wrong. The Mac Pro allows you to install up to 4 graphics cards, in any configuration you like.

Although now that Macs are using Intel processors, the graphic card gap is beginning to close
Yes, this is true. Mac has also worked out some interesting deals in regards to "integrated" graphics cards for their mini's, which make the mini much more competitive.

I think it is also rather odd that Mac (which touts itself as the "computer of the people") does not support gaming anywhere near as well as the PC industry does. The selection of Mac games at the Apple store is pretty sparse compared to the game rack in the PC software isle.

The same is true in the 3D graphics industry. I find this hard to believe since the Mac has been the mainstay of the graphics industry for many years. Autodesk owns nearly all of the major 3d software used today. They own 3d Max (which is arguably the most widely used 3d software) Maya and, recently aquired, Softimage XSI. All these programs are used by the big motion picture production and effects houses today such as Industrial light and magic, Pixar, Digital Domain and soforth and all of thier workstations and render farms are PC or PC/linux based. You will probably only see a Mac sitting in an office desk.
See, here again. It's not that Mac does not support gaming. Mac DOES support gaming. But game manufacturers (and thus, the 3d graphics houses that support those game manufacturers) don't support Mac. This is a problem that revolves around market shares and economic concerns, and has nothing to do with Mac itself. Simply put, Mac doesn't make up a large enough part of the market for game developers to learn how to develop their games for a unix based OS. But Mac's market share is increasing. So maybe that will change in the future, who knows.

With the execption of 3D Max there are Mac version of the 3D graphics software available but what is available is not the latest revisions. The software is developed first for PC then later ported to Linux and then Mac.
That's pretty standard for the way the market is currently. A lot of the software that is developed for OSX is either sponsored by Apple itself, or comes out of the open-source community (and there are some darned good open-source programs out there too). The rest is ports from windows because enough people think they "need" those titles.

I will say that you CAN game quite well on a Mac if you run Parallels (or boot camp if you so choose). Personally, I'm not a "gamer" -- I play WoW, and that runs on Mac natively anyway. But as I mentioned, with Parallels you can run any OS you want on a Mac, while retaining your Mac OS. Including any incarnation of windows you might feel like. So you can game to your heart's content. It just takes an extra click.

I honestly believe that a big reason why PC is so popular for gaming (besides the economic concerns I've mentioned already) has to do with the mentality of the typical hardcore gamer, and less to do with the actual capabilities of a Mac (these things are workhorses, seriously, and kick out some serious power). It's that the gaming community is big into upgrading their computers every time a new video card is released. Always tweaking and poking and upgrading to try and get just one extra frame per second (not that it really makes a difference above a certain threshold... there's only so many FPS the human eye can see!). You can't do that on a Mac (well, you can on a MP, but most people don't want to pay the premium to be able to do that). But you can on a PC.
 
Yes, my printer works equally well on a mac as it does on a windows machine. However, on a mac, it took 30 seconds to install (literally). On a windows machine, 4 hours. Yes, you read that right. 4 HOURS.
Truly badly done drivers. What was the printer? Installed HP,Canon and Brothers on Windows 98,XP,Vista and 7. Nowhere near 4 hours,either of them. Same for any other device.
My digital camera works great on both platforms. On the mac? No install process required at all. Just plug it in, boom photos. On windows? 30 minutes of installing software and drivers before photos.
What drivers? (Panasonic Videocamera - USB and Firewire in a minute using XP drivers)
Setting up a new network connection on mac? 30 seconds. On windows? Who the heck knows how long, but I've seen struggles ranging anywhere from 10 minutes to giving up after no result in 3 hours -- the exact same network that a mac could connect to with no problem, and there were not any hardware issues, it was just the software.
Ethernet is a piece of cake and I did it countless times. Wireless is bit worse depending on network setting. Even Windows 98 didn't give much problem.

What went wrong there? (After drivers it was always straight-forward)
The argument "you could build a computer for less" will never fly with me (whether or not it's actually true) because the cost of the computer isn't just how long it takes to build. It's how much time it sucks out of your life over the course of it's own.
Right. But thene again I need to build and setup a new computer in a half of day,which is usually ready to use including network.(Unless deviaiton is found)
Over the course of my life, I've used most of the major (and some of the not so major) operating systems out there. DOS, Unix, Linux (in various forms), Mac (when it wasn't unix), Windows... The list goes on. Hell, I grew up using DEC Alpha stations in my dad's lab, and unix terminals at home to dial into a university server on a 28.8 connection. I'm no stranger to computers or how they work. I've built them, repaired them, upgraded them, formatted them and reformatted them. And hands down, modern Mac is the absolute least amount of work.
Just MS-DOS survivor,Windows 3.11,95,98,XP,Vista and Windows 7 and some experience with Debian(Virtualboxed)

Doing computers,repairs and administration for six years.

Actually, it is quite true. Both my sister and myself were totally stumped over the whole thing, and even attempted to help her on several occasions before we each threw up our hands in frustration and stalked off.
I would love to see such system... (sounds fun to diagnose it)
I don't know if she was buying crap components or if her BIOS was fubar or what... But every time she would unplug anything from that thing, the OS would eat itself. She even bought a new HD to try and solve the problem, thinking it might be disk corruption... But it wasn't, and that didn't fix it.
Sounds like bad motherboard.(possibly first revision) Seen it. And even workaround,so PC was usable.


Anyway macs simply have no value to me as I need to be able to upgrade as needed and what is needed. (GPU,RAM,CPU..) or add things. Like nice PC-Card adapter so I can reuse unused PC-Cards...

Current main rig:
Core2 E4500
Standard Gigabyte mainboard (USB,PCIe,PCI,LAN,5.1 sound,SATA and PATA)
2GB Corsair XMS2
500GB HDD
Geforce 9500 512MB
DVDRW
500W power unit
in Big tower

planned upgrade Core i7 and 6GB. (I have Xeon,but it is for compnay server)

And BTW.:So far the only way to crash Windows 7 is to have bad driver and attempt to hibernate/sleep. (Usually wireless driver is culprit)
 
I honestly believe that a big reason why PC is so popular for gaming (besides the economic concerns I've mentioned already) has to do with the mentality of the typical hardcore gamer, and less to do with the actual capabilities of a Mac (these things are workhorses, seriously, and kick out some serious power). It's that the gaming community is big into upgrading their computers every time a new video card is released. Always tweaking and poking and upgrading to try and get just one extra frame per second (not that it really makes a difference above a certain threshold... there's only so many FPS the human eye can see!). You can't do that on a Mac (well, you can on a MP, but most people don't want to pay the premium to be able to do that). But you can on a PC.

Completely correct. In fact this was major reason I learned to upgrade and build computers in the first place. (Needed to replace integrated SiS graphic chip and soundcard ...)
 
Now that you mention that does seem a little odd. This is an option that would cost Apple like $50 (and they, being Apple would charge way more than this). I can't say that this would be a big deal if I wanted to buy it since I have a Blu-ray player (PS3), a very nice TV and no wife to hog it.

But I suppose that's what you get with Apple. Whatever Steve Jobs says is best for you goes.
Apple is slow to adopt new hardware, and rightly so. Apple is also one of the companies pushing away from hard-copy media purchasing models. You're talking about the company that owns the iTunes store, remember? Why are they going to put blu-ray players in their computers when what they really want you to do is buy the movie from them?

As far as I can tell the dual Xeon Mac Pro is somewhat reasonably priced. However, I doubt that very many people have the need for eight cores.

There is no quad CPU Mac Pro.

The one we were discussing is the single CPU Mac Pro.
Yes. Few people have the need for 8 or 16(virtualized) cores. The market for the Mac Pro is those high end graphics houses, and that do happen to need that kind of power -- you know, the same people who'd need to have 4 graphics cards, and 4TB of hard drive space...

(I do think that the person you were talking to meant dual or quad core CPU, not dual or quad CPU)
 
I

I honestly believe that a big reason why PC is so popular for gaming (besides the economic concerns I've mentioned already) has to do with the mentality of the typical hardcore gamer, and less to do with the actual capabilities of a Mac (these things are workhorses, seriously, and kick out some serious power). It's that the gaming community is big into upgrading their computers every time a new video card is released. Always tweaking and poking and upgrading to try and get just one extra frame per second (not that it really makes a difference above a certain threshold... there's only so many FPS the human eye can see!). You can't do that on a Mac (well, you can on a MP, but most people don't want to pay the premium to be able to do that). But you can on a PC.

Some of what you say is correct. But Apple also offers really crappy graphics cards for the prices they charge.
 

Back
Top Bottom