M825A1, smokescreens and empty shells

[FireGarden]

Again: so what? WP is a permitted weapon.

Just like guns are permitted weapons. But try taking one into a bank. Israel is accused of using these weapons in civilian areas. And also against the UNWRA HQ

Wow. The first real evidence of WP injuries turns out to be evidence for some other weapon. How sadly predictable.

Which thread have you been reading?
The article in the OP is titled: Gaza victims' burns increase concern over phosphorus

But, I know, I know....
You don't regard the testimony of Arab doctors to be evidence.

Perhaps you overlooked the Times article in post 6:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5497338.ece

Which has a picture of another burn victim beneath the headline. Are you going to deny those burns? Are you going to call them "supposed" burns?

As I quoted in that earlier post, the doctors admit having no experience with WP burns -- they are going by discriptions. Their testimony is that these burns are not like the burns they have seen before. And that the burns match the discription of WP injuries they have read about.

You don't regard that as real evidence, I know. I do regard it as real -- real enough that an investigation should be carried out. According to that article, tissue samples have been taken.

Why do so many people continue to buy into such stories when they have proven false time and time again?

You're not the only one who is frustrated by people not learning from history. I've already linked this article in this thread:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=777549

Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.

[...] Edery did not specify where and against what types of targets phosphorus munitions were used. During the war several foreign media outlets reported that Lebanese civilians carried injuries characteristic of attacks with phosphorus, a substance that burns when it comes to contact with air. In one CNN report, a casualty with serious burns was seen lying in a South Lebanon hospital.

In another case, Dr. Hussein Hamud al-Shel, who works at Dar al-Amal hospital in Ba'albek, said that he had received three corpses "entirely shriveled with black-green skin," a phenomenon characteristic of phosphorus injuries.

Did you believe those claims when they were made? Did you believe the Lebanese doctor? Or the CNN report? Or did you wait for Israel to admit it had used the weapons?

btw,
Your YNET story says:

A UN official said Tuesday that a team carrying out an environmental assessment of Lebanon after this summer’s Israel-Hizbullah war confirmed that the Israeli military used artillery containing white phosphorous but found no evidence of depleted uranium.

Israel made its admission a month before the team announced its results. I wonder what Israel would have said if no investigation was going to happen.

 

[Ziggurat]

But, I know, I know....
You don't regard the testimony of Arab doctors to be evidence.

Damn straight I don't. It's already proven itself to be unreliable.

Perhaps you overlooked the Times article in post 6:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5497338.ece

Which has a picture of another burn victim beneath the headline. Are you going to deny those burns? Are you going to call them "supposed" burns?

One of those guys is burned. The cause cannot be determined from the picture. The other guy is in bandages, that's all that we can tell. I'm still at a loss as to why anyone thinks this is so much worse than what conventional munitions can do to the human body.

Did you believe those claims when they were made? Did you believe the Lebanese doctor? Or the CNN report? Or did you wait for Israel to admit it had used the weapons?

Why on earth would I believe such fanciful descriptions of shriveled corpses? That WP was used doesn't mean it produced any such bodies, and no pictures emerged. Funny, that. When actual corpses of children turned up, nobody had any problems getting photos, but horrific sci-fi-like corpses? Perhaps they ran out of film . So no, I didn't believe that testimony. Why on earth do you?

btw,
Your YNET story says:

It says WP was used. That is not news, and it is not particularly significant either. It's interesting to see how studiously you avoid acknowledging the pattern of false accusations against Israel, though.

 

[FireGarden]

Damn straight I don't. It's already proven itself to be unreliable.

As have Israel's denials.

One of those guys is burned. The cause cannot be determined from the picture. The other guy is in bandages, that's all that we can tell.

I don't expect a picture to provide a diagnosis. As I said: samples have been taken and will be sent to a lab.

l at a loss as to why anyone thinks this is so much worse than what conventional munitions can do to the human body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)#Effects_on_humans

Phosphorus burns carry a greater risk of mortality than other forms of burns due to the absorption of phosphorus into the body through the burned area, resulting in liver, heart and kidney damage, and in some cases multi-organ failure.

It's also harder to stop the burning.

It's interesting to see how studiously you avoid acknowledging the pattern of false accusations against Israel, though.

And how you avoid the obvious that:
Phosphorus burns.

Israel has been using shells marked as WP shells.

Israel has been seen firing airburst that look like WP shells. In some cases this has been around civilian areas.

Burning substances have been videod on the ground, in civilian areas and at the UNWRA HQ, that look like the "felt wedges" that come out of a WP shell.

Doctors claim that some of the burn patients they are seeing are not suffering from ordinary burns.

The claim that civilians are burnt by phosphorus when phosphorus is used in areas that have civilians is in no way a far out, sci-fi claim. What do you think protects the civilians from WP when it is used in civilian areas?

Against this, you present the almighty evidence that false claims have been made against Israel. My, my. Such evidence! That must negate all the above? Hardly!

Let's wait and see what the result of an investigation is. (Assuming there is one).

 

[Ziggurat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)#Effects_on_humans

And this is worse than getting blown to bits... how?

And how you avoid the obvious that:
Phosphorus burns.

No ****, Sherlock. And weapons kill. Who'da thunk?

The claim that civilians are burnt by phosphorus when phosphorus is used in areas that have civilians is in no way a far out, sci-fi claim.

Oh, but your quote didn't simply claim that people got burned. The claim was that it turned people into corpses "entirely shriveled with black-green skin". And that is sci-fi. It didn't happen. Which is why no pictures of said corpses ever emerged.

What do you think protects the civilians from WP when it is used in civilian areas?

How about walls? Those burning fragments aren't exactly armor piercing penetrators.

Let's wait and see what the result of an investigation is. (Assuming there is one).

You didn't wait to make your accusations. It's rather rich for you to be telling me to wait when I challenge them.

 

[FireGarden]

And this is worse than getting blown to bits... how?

I misunderstood your question.

We've been over this before: the airburst covers a wide area, so it cannot pick out a military target in a civilian area. That is the reason people are complaining about the use of WP in civilian areas.

Oh, but your quote didn't simply claim that people got burned. The claim was that it turned people into corpses "entirely shriveled with black-green skin". And that is sci-fi. It didn't happen. Which is why no pictures of said corpses ever emerged.

I'll leave you to google images related to "corpses, fallujah". They sure look shriveled to me. I'd have left it at black. But my colour vision isn't perfect. Dark green/black. Who am I to say.

Most things shrivel and go black when they burn. Heck, a lot of things shrivel and go black when they decay -- which is the explanation given for many of the corpses from Fallujah.

How about walls? Those burning fragments aren't exactly armor piercing penetrators.

That is your explanation? Everybody was indoors.

You didn't wait to make your accusations. It's rather rich for you to be telling me to wait when I challenge them.

They're not my accusations.

I don't regard evidence as proof. That will come with more detailed investigation.

 

[Ziggurat]

I'll leave you to google images related to "corpses, fallujah".

That's funny, but last time I checked, Israeli troops weren't in Fallujah, and Fallujah isn't in Lebanon. Feel free to correct me on that point.

They sure look shriveled to me.

Yeah, because they had been left exposed, sometimes for days on end, while the fighting raged. Which is why their clothing wasn't turned into cinders: they weren't burned to death.

Most things shrivel and go black when they burn. Heck, a lot of things shrivel and go black when they decay -- which is the explanation given for many of the corpses from Fallujah.

In other words, something other than WP produces blackened corpses. So why is it you take those Lebanon reports as evidence of civilians killed by WP again? And again, why didn't any photos turn up? Maybe there were such corpses, but if they're anything like Fallujah, the preserved clothing would have given lie to the claim that it was from WP.

 

[WildCat]

Yeah, because they had been left exposed, sometimes for days on end, while the fighting raged. Which is why their clothing wasn't turned into cinders: they weren't burned to death.

Astonishing that people on this board are still using pictures of decomposed corpses which show no signs of burning as proof of burns by WP.

WP does not turn bodies black while leaving clothing unaffected. Decomposition, OTOH, certainly does those things.

 

[Wildtime]

WP: Incendiary projectile?

Most armoured vehicles have multiple smoke grenade dischargers which fire off White Phosphorous grenades to screen the AFV from visual and thermal sighting. Artillery will also fire off WP shells during smoke operations to hide an armoured advance. Infantry will either be in APCs or hold back until the WP disperses.

First aid for white phosphorous: deprive the WP of oxygen, or remove it from the body altogether. White phosphorous is pyrophoric (will ignite spontaneously) when exposed to air, and will continue to burn intensely until it has completely consumed itself. As for smoke inhalation:

The Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry has set an acute inhalation Minimum Risk Level (MRL) for white phosphorus smoke of 0.02 mg/m³, the same as fuel oil fumes. By contrast, the chemical weapon mustard gas is 30 times more potent: 0.0007 mg/m³

Most NATO countries have switched to red phosphorous for safety reasons (for the user, not anyone else). WP grenades are electrically primed and can detonate during electrical storms or rough handling. Red phosphorous is harder to ignite and is not pyrophoric.

 

[FireGarden]

That's funny, but last time I checked, Israeli troops weren't in Fallujah, and Fallujah isn't in Lebanon. Feel free to correct me on that point.

You're not that dense. And if you want to play for the people who are, then you're welcome.

The topic was your claim that shriveled black corpses are sci-fi. I disagree. That is how I would describe the corspes I saw related to the attack on Fallujah. If you think such descriptions are sci-fi then go google the images. I won't link them.

Yeah, because they had been left exposed, sometimes for days on end, while the fighting raged. Which is why their clothing wasn't turned into cinders: they weren't burned to death.

Perhaps you didn't read further into my answer.

In other words, something other than WP produces blackened corpses.

Oh wait! You did read that part of my answer.

So why is it you take those Lebanon reports as evidence of civilians killed by WP again?

Because the claim was made by a doctor. Not good enough for you, I know. Especially, it seems, because the accused was Israel or the doctor was an Arab. ETA: the doctor didn't say the corpses were of civilians.

And again, why didn't any photos turn up?

They did. Try google, I won't link them.
You can also look for the Italian documentary that was debunked.

Maybe there were such corpses, but if they're anything like Fallujah, the preserved clothing would have given lie to the claim that it was from WP.

I didn't claim they were evidence of WP -- I gave the explanation you gave before you gave it. I specifically had in mind the debunking of that Italian documentary when I did it.

I was addressing your point that shriveled black corpses are sci-fi.

But you can pretend otherwise if you like. Oh look! Wildcat fell for your strawman. Congratulations!

Astonishing that people on this board are still using pictures of decomposed corpses which show no signs of burning as proof of burns by WP.

WP does not turn bodies black while leaving clothing unaffected. Decomposition, OTOH, certainly does those things.

 

[WildCat]

I was addressing your point that shriveled black corpses are sci-fi.

But you can pretend otherwise if you like. But, oh look! Wildcat fell for your strawman. Congratulations!

Strawman? You brought it up when you linked to the Wiki article and and claimed it made people into shriveled black corpses. And you defended that ridiculous claim in this very post!

The topic was your claim that shriveled black corpses are sci-fi. I disagree. That is how I would describe the corspes I saw related to the attack on Fallujah. If you think such descriptions are sci-fi then go google the images. I won't link them.

 

[FireGarden]

Strawman? You brought it up when you linked to the Wiki article and and claimed it made people into shriveled black corpses.

Which wiki article?
Last time I linked to a wiki article, I quoted this:

Phosphorus burns carry a greater risk of mortality than other forms of burns due to the absorption of phosphorus into the body through the burned area, resulting in liver, heart and kidney damage, and in some cases multi-organ failure.

No mention of blackened corpses.

And you defended that ridiculous claim in this very post!

You'll notice there is no mention of WP in the quote you gave.

 

[Ziggurat]

The topic was your claim that shriveled black corpses are sci-fi. I disagree.

Uh, no. Let me remind you of what you quoted in post 81: "he had received three corpses "entirely shriveled with black-green skin," a phenomenon characteristic of phosphorus injuries." Note the bolded part. The only thing such corpses appear to be characteristic of is exposure and decay. I admit, though, that it might not have been the doctor lying about the role of phosphorous in producing those corpses: it might have been the journalist.

 

[FireGarden]

WP burns:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/833585-overview

White phosphorus skin exposure results in painful chemical burn injuries. The resultant burn typically appears as a necrotic area with a yellowish color and characteristic garliclike odor.

There is a picture of a nectrotic wound here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrosis

black-yellow

NB: I still do not claim that the Fallujah corpses were the result of WP. That is Ziggy's strawman.

 

[Ziggurat]

WP burns:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/833585-overview

"Burns usually are limited to areas of exposed skin (upper extremities, face)."

So WP does not typically produce corpses that are "entirely shriveled with black-green skin".

 

[FireGarden]

"Burns usually are limited to areas of exposed skin (upper extremities, face)."

So WP does not typically produce corpses that are "entirely shriveled with black-green skin".

But you're reading that into the quote from Haaretz.

The quote doesn't say that WP produces shriveled corpses. It points to "a phenomenon characteristic of phosphorus injuries". That phenomenon being the necrotic skin. That this phenomenon was seen in corpses that were shriveled is not sci-fi. ETA: we've both admited that corpses shrivel for other reasons.

 

[Ziggurat]

But you're reading that into the quote from Haaretz.

The quote doesn't say that WP produces shriveled corpses. It points to "a phenomenon characteristic of phosphorus injuries". That phenomenon being the necrotic skin. That this phenomenon was seen in corpses that were shriveled is not sci-fi. ETA: we've both admited that corpses shrivel for other reasons.

If the claim is that this quote is ONLY saying blackened skin (because the quote does not say "necrotic") is characteristic of phosphorous injuries, and that the blackening may be on only parts of the body and the shriveling may be for other reasons, well, you're left with nothing. Blackened skin on a corpse is characteristic of LOTS of stuff - so many things, in fact, that it alone cannot be used as evidence for anything. Hell, it's characteristic of a sharpie-wielding serial killer too. So we're still left with no real evidence of any casualties from WP, other than completely unreliable second-hand testimony.

 

[FireGarden]

So we're still left with no real evidence of any casualties from WP, other than completely unreliable second-hand testimony.

Except that what is being summarised to us is the opinion of a doctor.

Not to mention that this doctor was not the only doctor. Nor was Haaretz the only newspaper to report such views.

 

[Ziggurat]

Except that what is being summarised to us is the opinion of a doctor.

Who, by his own admission, doesn't know what to make of what he sees. So his supposed authority, as a doctor, is not much use. And his reliability is not guaranteed in any way by his profession either. Doctors can lie just as easily as the rest of us.

But nice attempt at an argument by authority.

Not to mention that this doctor was not the only doctor.

I believe multiple sources (including doctors) reported on Israel using nerve gas too. Didn't make it any more true.

Nor was Haaretz the only newspaper to report such views.

Argument ad populum. Other papers picking up the story suggests that Haaretz isn't making this stuff up themselves. It says nothing about the accuracy of those views. Herd mentality runs rampant within the news business, so multiple papers picking up a story is rather common, even in the case of fake stories.

 

[FireGarden]

Who, by his own admission, doesn't know what to make of what he sees.

When did Dr. Hussein Hamud al-Shel say that? Or are you mixing up the testimony of the doctors in Gaza, who say they have taken samples which they want tested in international labs?

And his reliability is not guaranteed in any way by his profession either. Doctors can lie just as easily as the rest of us.

But nice attempt at an argument by authority.

If everybody can lie, then all authorities are useless.

I believe multiple sources (including doctors) reported on Israel using nerve gas too. Didn't make it any more true.

You believe?
How about some links to CNN, Haaretz, BBC, Timesonline, etc.

 

[Ziggurat]

If everybody can lie, then all authorities are useless.

When a group has a track record of lying, an incentive to lie, and suffer nothing for getting caught lying, well, yes.

You believe?
How about some links to CNN, Haaretz, BBC, Timesonline, etc.

Here's a BBC transcript
http://www.electronicintifada.net/v2/article1667.shtml
Olenka Frenkiel, a BBC journalist, stated that "In February 2001, a new gas was used in Gaza. A hundred and eighty patients were admitted to hospitals with severe convulsions." Her source appears to be Dr Mohammed Salama.

Apparently Arafat got in on the fun too:
http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/02/15/arafat.gas/

You can find lots of testimony here.

The only problem? It was just tear gas.