Lynchings in Haiti

Mycroft said:
I would really advise against reacting that way.

As awful as it is, you have several dozen people out of a population of ten million. It's unfair to write off the majority based on the barbaric acts of a tiny minority.

People, especially Christians, who suffer tragedies and who are powerless to change their lot turn to the supernatural as a way to explain their suffering and to lend them at least the illusion of control. This is just as true in the United States as it is in Haiti, the only real difference being that the United States is more wealthy and better at dealing with such large scale events.

I wouldn't judge Haitians too harshly.
Click to expand...

Well said
 
Donal said:
Linky? You know, some actual documented proof?



Great, then you have nothing to add other than insane, bigoted and incomprehensible ramblings.



And there we have it.
Click to expand...

I think they are confusing Catholics with Pentacostals in this case.

A few years ago, a very influential and powerful Pentacostal minister in Nigeria started promoting the idea that Satan was drafting children to work as witches. She ran an extremely effective propaganda campagin, and video and literature was spread far and wide, spilling into other countries in West Africa as well. In the past decade, thousands of children (including toddlers and infants) have been exiled from their villages, tortured, and murdered after being acused as witches. Others have fled to escape torture and/or murder, forming wandering bands of outcast child witches. A common practice was drizzling gasoline on the children, or dousing them with it entirely (depending on if the aim in that individual case was to torture the child or actually kill them), and then light them on fire. The children are most often acused, tortured, and murdered by religious officials themselves, bishops and ministers, most commonly at religious services and revivals. Though Nigeria has arrested some of the most notorious ministers (including a bishop who admitted to personally killing over a hundred children), putting an end to this practice has been devastatingly slow in coming. One practice is for church officials to tell a family that a child is a witch because they are possessed, and they will exorcise the demon from their child, but for a price. If the family cannot pay, the child is killed instead. One of the saddest things is that there are cases when the family DOES pay, the exorcism is performed, but the official says it didn't work, and the child is killed anyways.


If you google "Africa's witch children" you can read all about it.

Though I'm not sure, I highly doubt this was the case in this latest witch hunt in Haiti. This is because of how demonic influence is perceived by Catholic Church officials in the Caribean. Though there is a pervasive belief in demonic influence in the Church, and though many misfortunes are blamed on Satanic causation - from disease to mental illness to a poor harvest and many other problems - the Church blames such things on demons, not witches. Even when an individual person is thought to be under Satan's influence, they are not thought of as a witch who is inherently evil, but rather an innocent person possessed by a demon. Though exorcisms are commonly performed, they don't kill people, they just seek to cure them of their demonic curse. In the case of the Pentacostals, the child themselves are often blamed. It's thought even if they are possessed, they are possessed because they wanted it, or because they are inherently evil and that made them able to be possessed. The mentality is, "this child is a danger to us all and evil, we must kill them." In the case of the Catholic Church in the Caribbean, the possessed person is seen by the Church most often as a poor victim, not an evil agent of Satan. Which isn't to say all Caribbeans share this mentality, only that this is the most common stance the Catholic Church hierarchy itself takes in the region.

Therefor, while it is certainly most likely that these lynchings and acusation of witchcraft were performed by Catholics simply because most people ARE Catholic, I think it is very unlikely that these killings were actually promoted by Catholic Church officials.

I don't think Aepervius' post was based on insane ramblings and bigotry, my guess is they simply confused which Christian sect is responsible for the burnings of child "Witches" in Africa, which still is occurring even now.
 
Last edited:
Donal said:
That always happens. After 9/11, the annual wildfires out West, and pretty much any horrible thing happens someone says "this is God's will because you offended Him". And the overwhelming response is "shut up, jack ass.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but but in this case they are not only saying that, they are lynching people. Yes, they had statements from members of the lynch mobs saying this.

Do you have any actual proof that this is somehow organized by the Catholic Church? Any at all, other than your own painfully ignorant opinion?
Click to expand...

I never claimed it was organized by the Catholic Church, and you are getting very close to being uncivil. You have to believe in the supernatural to think that cholera is spread by black magic. Religions teach people to believe in the supernatural and to look for supernatural explanations of phenomena. Hopefully priests are not organizing the lynch mobs, but they reinforce the belief system that motivates the lynchings.
 
Puppycow said:
Yeah, but but in this case they are not only saying that, they are lynching people. Yes, they had statements from members of the lynch mobs saying this.
Click to expand...

Linky? Any actual connection at all to the Church? No? OK, thanks.


I never claimed it was organized by the Catholic Church,
Click to expand...

Uh, ya, you did. You didn't say say the words "the Catholic Church is doing it", but everything else you said goes there. Why else did you specifically point out Catholics?

and you are getting very close to being uncivil.
Click to expand...

Ya, but your OP is based on prejudice, so meh. I'm not too concerned with your feelings. You don't like it, I'll point you to the report button and a mod can figure it out.

You have to believe in the supernatural to think that cholera is spread by black magic.
Click to expand...

Ummmm, ok

Religions teach people to believe in the supernatural and to look for supernatural explanations of phenomena.
Click to expand...

You do realize that many faiths, including Catholicism embrace science to explain natural phenomena, right? That studies like genetics and cosmo gensis were actually founded by Catholic clergy? That the last 3popes have come out in support of the Theory of Evolution?

Naw, thats just being facts into a nice little bigoted rant.

Hopefully priests are not organizing the lynch mobs, but they reinforce the belief system that motivates the lynchings.
Click to expand...

Excuse me? So anything that embraces the existence of something you can't measure/understand MOTIVATES LYNCHINGS?!?! Are you serious?

Ya, go ahead and accuse me of being uncivil.
 
Puppycow said:
Well obviously I can't link to what I saw on TV news almost a year ago but I found some similar reports. In this case it was evangelical Christians attacking Voodoo practitioners.

http://www.nola.com/religion/index....at_ceremony_for_haiti_earthquake_victims.html

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Tensions_mount_in_Haiti_after_voodoo_ceremony_attack_999.html
Click to expand...
Stuff like this happens in the third world constantly. The logical conclusion of your line of thought here is that we should never help people who live in third world countries. I hope you'll re-think your naive outrage:
Puppycow said:
stories like this one and this one don't make me want to donate any more.
Click to expand...
 
Puppycow said:
While Haiti is known for Voodoo, it is a small minority religion. The vast majority are Christian, and the vast majority of Christians are Catholics.
Click to expand...
Are you picking up on the fact that Christianity and Voodoo are both widespread, and that there is now a sizable Protestant demographic?
Professor of Haitian Studies said:
It [Voodoo] is the dominant religion of Haiti ... Haitians see nothing odd at all with practicing Voodoo and Catholicism side by side and are often very devout about each of them link
Click to expand...
AP said:
An estimated 70 percent of Haiti’s 8.8 million people practice Voodoo to some extent, including many who claim to be Catholic or another religion. But a growing number, estimated at 30 percent, identify themselves as Protestant, said Andre Corten, a Canadian sociologist. This smaller group adamantly oppose Voodoo. link
Click to expand...
 
varwoche said:
Are you picking up on the fact that Christianity and Voodoo are both widespread, and that there is now a sizable Protestant demographic?
Click to expand...

Yes. So it's probably the protestants then. They are the ones who attacked the Vooodoo prayer ceremony. The figure I read was 16% protestant, but if it's actually 30% and growing then they are probably starting to feel their oats.
 
Schrodinger's Cat said:
I think they are confusing Catholics with Pentacostals in this case.

A few years ago, a very influential and powerful Pentacostal minister in Nigeria started promoting the idea that Satan was drafting children to work as witches. She ran an extremely effective propaganda campagin, and video and literature was spread far and wide, spilling into other countries in West Africa as well. In the past decade, thousands of children (including toddlers and infants) have been exiled from their villages, tortured, and murdered after being acused as witches. Others have fled to escape torture and/or murder, forming wandering bands of outcast child witches. A common practice was drizzling gasoline on the children, or dousing them with it entirely (depending on if the aim in that individual case was to torture the child or actually kill them), and then light them on fire. The children are most often acused, tortured, and murdered by religious officials themselves, bishops and ministers, most commonly at religious services and revivals. Though Nigeria has arrested some of the most notorious ministers (including a bishop who admitted to personally killing over a hundred children), putting an end to this practice has been devastatingly slow in coming. One practice is for church officials to tell a family that a child is a witch because they are possessed, and they will exorcise the demon from their child, but for a price. If the family cannot pay, the child is killed instead. One of the saddest things is that there are cases when the family DOES pay, the exorcism is performed, but the official says it didn't work, and the child is killed anyways.


If you google "Africa's witch children" you can read all about it.

Though I'm not sure, I highly doubt this was the case in this latest witch hunt in Haiti. This is because of how demonic influence is perceived by Catholic Church officials in the Caribean. Though there is a pervasive belief in demonic influence in the Church, and though many misfortunes are blamed on Satanic causation - from disease to mental illness to a poor harvest and many other problems - the Church blames such things on demons, not witches. Even when an individual person is thought to be under Satan's influence, they are not thought of as a witch who is inherently evil, but rather an innocent person possessed by a demon. Though exorcisms are commonly performed, they don't kill people, they just seek to cure them of their demonic curse. In the case of the Pentacostals, the child themselves are often blamed. It's thought even if they are possessed, they are possessed because they wanted it, or because they are inherently evil and that made them able to be possessed. The mentality is, "this child is a danger to us all and evil, we must kill them." In the case of the Catholic Church in the Caribbean, the possessed person is seen by the Church most often as a poor victim, not an evil agent of Satan. Which isn't to say all Caribbeans share this mentality, only that this is the most common stance the Catholic Church hierarchy itself takes in the region.

Therefor, while it is certainly most likely that these lynchings and acusation of witchcraft were performed by Catholics simply because most people ARE Catholic, I think it is very unlikely that these killings were actually promoted by Catholic Church officials.

I don't think Aepervius' post was based on insane ramblings and bigotry, my guess is they simply confused which Christian sect is responsible for the burnings of child "Witches" in Africa, which still is occurring even now.
Click to expand...

Yeah but some guy shot an abortion doctor for God in America, so no Americans can say anything. :rolleyes:
 
Puppycow said:
Well obviously I can't link to what I saw on TV news almost a year ago
Click to expand...

So, for all intents and purposes, it never actually happened. You are on a skeptic's forum after all. We can only deal with what is proven. Your hazy memories of a TV segment you may or may not have actually seen mean nothing.

but I found some similar reports. In this case it was evangelical Christians attacking Voodoo practitioners.

http://www.nola.com/religion/index....at_ceremony_for_haiti_earthquake_victims.html

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Tensions_mount_in_Haiti_after_voodoo_ceremony_attack_999.html
Click to expand...

So, are you going to take back your accusations against the Catholics?

You know what? I'm not going to hold my breathe for that one.
 
I know the asnwer to this one. Its called IGNORANCE.

You know the same reason why in Africa they "believe" that if they have sex with a virgin BABY it cures em of AIDS.

In this world the majority of atrocities are done by evil. Not good. Just shows you how evil; the leaders of Haiti are to allow this to go on. Maybe we need to "Liberate" them from themselves....
 
Donal said:
So, are you going to take back your accusations against the Catholics?

You know what? I'm not going to hold my breathe for that one.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I implied that the Christians behind this were Catholic. I said that Christians were probably behind these and I stand behind that. I didn't say it was necessarily Catholics, just that the majority of Haitian Christians are Catholic. It appears that more of them may now be Protestant than the information I read. Protestant or Catholic is not a distinction that particularly matters to me. They're all Christians as far as I'm concerned.
 
Last edited:
That's really not better. You just feel like pinning this on someone with a different world view.

It is as dumb as if I were to point to the atrocities of Stalin or Pol Pot's regimes and yell, "THIS IS WHAT ATHEISM DOES!"
 
plumjam said:
Yeah, it'll be the Catholic Church's fault. Somehow.
Along with puppies being run over, and people biting their own mouths.
Click to expand...

I agree, why blame Haitians. Its not like they are the ones hanging the people.
 
Donal said:
Linky? You know, some actual documented proof?
Click to expand...

Go on youtube and search for witch burning. Go onto BBC. Saerch for the same.


Great, then you have nothing to add other than insane, bigoted and incomprehensible ramblings.



And there we have it.
Click to expand...

Slicing two part which go together in context. Nice tactic but easy to spot on.

There is next to never a proof a SPECIFIC religious group started it, because individual starts it, and the cathos as a whole , like ANY other religious group, assign bad action to individual but good outcome to god.

You may refuse to see that, but there are a few thread example of this here. Like the girl saved in the crash, or the baby saved by doctor on Christmas.

You refuse to accept it, your problem. But any of us can see your refusal for what it is.
 
Schrodinger's Cat said:
I don't think Aepervius' post was based on insane ramblings and bigotry, my guess is they simply confused which Christian sect is responsible for the burnings of child "Witches" in Africa, which still is occurring even now.
Click to expand...

You know there are so many group of them believing so many different (to my view) crazy belief, it is hard to keep up who refuse to promote condom, who sodomize children "near" the altar, and who burn witches, and who refuse blood transfusion or insuline to children.
 
Puppycow said:
Oops. Was I being bigoted? Sorry for that.
Click to expand...

To be fair, the catholic weren't exactly "for" the nazi, only a minority of german catho priest were, most german catho priest hierarchy were (if i recall correctly) more or less attempting not to attract attention, and vatican had dropped since 1935 thereabout their politic of "rapprochement".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom