Lucid Dreaming

[3bz]

If you're interested, Dr. LaBerge talks about much more of the experiments he did for his PhD dissertation in his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming.
I'm not aware of whether any one's looked at the pre-rontal cortex like you mentioned, but LaBerge's experiments with the polygraph where subjects perform previously agreed upon actions while lucid would seem to suggest that in a (medium to highly) lucid dream, your critical faculties are indeed working.

I haven't read his book, I am familiar with some experiments done during lucid dreaming though. Not that it really matters, nor does the fact that critical faculties are working (which you don't need to make any measurements to conclude, behavioural clues would do), it's what you measure that makes a difference and I don't see what relevance a polygraph would have when it comes to neuroscience. In the case of the recording of eyemovements of lucid dreamers with an electrooculogram connected to a polygraph (which is what he did in the experiment you mention), which might as well be a computer, so it would be better to refer to it as polygraphic records, but anyway... this still has no relevance from the perspective of neuroscience.

Laberge has done some other good work though, some of which relates to the field of consciousness studies and world simulation theories of consciousness/representationalist theories of perception. So yes, his research is interesting, but no, he has not done the prefrontal test, nor has anyone else, that's why I mentioned it. Any lucid dreamer care to get strapped in ?
That's only wishful thinking though, I don't even have access to EEG at my university, even less some more expensive form of functional scanning device.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I read one of Stephen Laberge's early books on LD many years ago. I tried the exercises (though never sought any feedback equipment).
I had a few partial successes, but nothing I could deliberately repeat with any surety. It's certainly fun when it works.
I'm mostly, though not always dyslexic in dreams. Don't recall seeing any light switches.
I had one semi lucid one in which the "me"character was able to shut his eyes in advance of a flare which dazzled everyone else. Now what's going on here. How could anyone other than me be dazzled?
Actually , most of my dreams are so flatly terrifying that I'm happy to have one that doesn't involve waking up soaked in sweat and shaking like a jelly. It's the drink.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I'm a mild insomniac (in fact, I'm writing this at 6 am) and I often take sleeping pills to put me to sleep. I use non-perscription pills you get in the pharmacy, that use diphenhydramine hydrochloride. Whenever I take them, I get the strangest dreams - a couple nights ago I had one where I was playing chess (or something like it...it was a circular table), and someone comes up to me and says, "Excuse me Justin, but your cholesterol has reached 8000. You're going to die tomorrow. Either that or in an hour." I just said, "Alright. I'll keep that in mind," and I casually moved my pawn. Later on in that dream, I was reading a book that stated, "If someone tells you your cholesterol has reached 8000, it's a scam." My favourite, though, was a few weeks before that. It was WWII, and I was in a meeting with Hitler and various other influential people. I was there to try to convince him not to take over Europe. For some reason, I don't know why, I had to leave the meeting before anything was really discussed. But as I was walking down the hall leaving the building, I noticed that I was holding a bag of chocolates. "Damnit!" I thought. "Why didn't I give Hitler the bag of chocolates?! That would have convinced him not to take over Europe!" As I was debating whether it was worth running back, I woke up and started laughing.

I usually never get lucid dreams, but now, when I take sleeping pills, they're starting to get more lucid. But my main problem is that even though I realize I'm in a dream, I either only consider half the picture, or I invent rules that will prevent me from doing fun stuff. The last time I realized I was in a dream, it never occured to me that I could do whatever I wanted - most of the dream consisted of me trying to decide when to wake up. When I decided to wake up, I said good bye to all my friends in the dream, and sure enough, I woke up.

Diphenhydramine hydrochloride, as far as I know, is a fairly harmless anti-histamine. Has anyone who regularly gets lucid dreams taken it? I'm curious to see how it would affect them.

 

[Piggy]

Regarding brain scans, I don't see why there should be any difference in brain activity if a dreamer is aware that his/her experience is a dream compared to if s/he is not. I don't see how the thought "I am dreaming now" requires any brain activity which would be distinguishable from, say, "There's my friend Bob" or "I have to escape this flying train" or any other ideas a dreamer may entertain.

 

[brooklyn44]

me too

I have a high level of lucidity in my dreams, but usually very low level control. I went through a period of time were becoming lucid was actually a nightmare, and I'd spend the rest of the dream in a panic trying to wake up. I still occasionally get the "I need to wake up now" feeling, I'm not sure where that comes from. But I'm usually aware I'm dreaming, even though I don't seem to have the control ability many describe, which may account for the panic...who knows.

Has anyone else noticed how much more intense emotions are in dreams? Like when you're happy, you're REALLY REALLY estatic, and if you're scared, it's beyond all proportions... ect.

I am often not successful waking up from frightening dreams. I tell myself to wake up and I dream that I've awakened and try to pinch myself to become conscious only to find myself still in the dream.

 

[Zeno]

I logged on for the first time in a long time and have never really been active on this board. I thought maybe I would see what the general opinion on lucid dreaming was in this forum. Luckily for me, it was right at the top of the board.

Anyways. A few years back I was looking for a way to extract dextromethorphan from cough syrup (spare me the grief). I came to one and I noticed in the right frame of the page there was a link titled "Lucid Dreaming". Not knowing what it was, I clicked it and read all the material that was offered. Always amazed by dreams and um...halucinations (see what the dextromethorphan was for?).

I too hated the fact that a lot of the lucid dream community attatched stuff like psychic ability and religion to dreaming. I still participate in the lucid dreaming community and it seems that there are a lot of people out there that agree with the fact that dreams are just images produced by certain sections of the brain and the brain can only communicate things that it knows or maybe sometime make guesses.

An example would be that I have had dreams where I have gone a place where I have never been before. Like Toronto. An irrational person would think that somehow their brain leaped gaps in space and time and was basically relaying Toronto to them. But what really happens is the brain will produce familiar things like buildings, cars, and people. And that is all it is. Its not Toronto, its just random drawings of what your brain thinks should be there.

All quite obvious I know. I'll shut up.

 

[brooklyn44]

light switches

I am weighing in....I can never turn lights on or off in my dreams. Reading is also one of my markers, I can't seem to read newspapers of movie subtitles,,,they keep changing in content or make no sense at all.
Does anyone experience this?:
I have the ability to look at still photos and watch then become animated and tell the story of what happens right after the picture was snapped.
b44

 

[Zeno]

Yea. Everytime I become lucid, reading is what I usually try to do. It amazes me how it will change. Sometimes it changes or becomes fuzzy while I am trying to read.

 

[Dogdoctor]

how would you possibly know this? Is this conjecture or do you actually recall not waking having heard it? You see the paradox here? Are you assuming the toilet was used, or are you assuming the user's movements weren't heard?

I know that I wake up when there is activity that is not normal yet if someone is making just as much noise and it is normal activity then I don't wake up. If people are in the room with me having a conversation and they mention my name I will wake up and also if they say something I find interesting or important I will wake and remember it. So I guess my ears work while I sleep only my brain filters it out and allows me to continue to sleep unless I recognize a reason to respond and then I wake up. People can talk and I won't wake but whisper my name and I will.

 

[FreakBoy]

Me too. What was your distinction in the lucid state?

The first time I experienced this provided me only with a semi lucid state in what many would have misinterpreted as an Out of Body Experience. The switch to the dreamlike halucination was completely seamless. There was no phase transition from waking to dreaming but reality checks told me that I had been floating backwards over my bed for far too long to not have hit the headboard.

Unfortuantely my memory of the details of the fully lucid experience are fairly foggy as it happened in the same night after waking fully and attempting sleep again. I do know that as with the "OBE" the transition was again seamless even if preceded by extremely difficult experience with the sleep paralysis.

Anyone else have that "Oh poop, my heart is going to explode" thing with Sleep Paralysis?

The "OBE" took up most of my attention as it was really exciting to have had first hand experience at what so many people seem to attribute to some supernatural event.

 

[osmosis]

Regarding brain scans, I don't see why there should be any difference in brain activity if a dreamer is aware that his/her experience is a dream compared to if s/he is not. I don't see how the thought "I am dreaming now" requires any brain activity which would be distinguishable from, say, "There's my friend Bob" or "I have to escape this flying train" or any other ideas a dreamer may entertain.

I can think of a very good reason: the awareness. Is it not reasonable to speculate that being aware of something would constitute different brain activity than being aware of nothing?

In fact, I'm pretty sure there is a localized area in the brain stem that acts as a "gate", controlling awareness. At least there is in cats; scientists demonstrated that if you sever the neurons there, the cat will never wake up. I'm pretty sure this is true of humans also, otherwise it wouldn't have been in a human psychology textbook.

 

[Piggy]

I can think of a very good reason: the awareness. Is it not reasonable to speculate that being aware of something would constitute different brain activity than being aware of nothing?

In fact, I'm pretty sure there is a localized area in the brain stem that acts as a "gate", controlling awareness. At least there is in cats; scientists demonstrated that if you sever the neurons there, the cat will never wake up. I'm pretty sure this is true of humans also, otherwise it wouldn't have been in a human psychology textbook.

I don't understand.

What exactly do you mean by "awareness"? You seem to be discussing differences between states of sleep and waking, which do register differently. But we're taking here about being clearly in a dream state, and understanding that this is the state you're in.

I don't see why having a thought "I'm dreaming" while in a dream would register as anything distinguishable from other thoughts we have while dreaming, such as "I'm trapped in this building" or "If this cab doesn't land soon I'm going to be late for my meeting with Al Capone".

 

[3bz]

I don't understand.

What exactly do you mean by "awareness"? You seem to be discussing differences between states of sleep and waking, which do register differently. But we're taking here about being clearly in a dream state, and understanding that this is the state you're in.

I don't see why having a thought "I'm dreaming" while in a dream would register as anything distinguishable from other thoughts we have while dreaming, such as "I'm trapped in this building" or "If this cab doesn't land soon I'm going to be late for my meeting with Al Capone".

What is your definition of a lucid dream?

How come you think of a lucid dream as something different from an ordinary dream and how do you personally distinguish between the two states?

Do you think/feel there is any difference in degree of self-awareness in the two states?

How does the experience of a waking state differ from that of a normal dream, apart from the hallucinations?

How does the experience of a waking state differ from that of a lucid dream, apart from the pseudo-hallucinations?

I know that the wording of the two last questions might seem a bit suspicious, but I can't label it hallucinations in both cases.

Without knowing that, I think it will be hard for me to answer your question in a way that will seem acceptable to you and maybe not even then

To me the whole point lies in the fact that the lucid state and the waking state are not that different while the normal dreaming and the waking state are, or atleast seem to be.

You may want to look into some articles By J Allan Hobson on differences in neurophysiology between the waking and dreaming state.

For example: (ack, can't post urls...)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12457899&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16251949&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16091263&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16091263&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12209117&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15032995&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum


I'm not really sure how you will answer the questions I asked, even if our answers to the questions might be almost the same, I suspect that your view on consciousness might differ from mine and that might make the whole difference when it comes to how we view the matter

 

[Major Billy]

What is...

>What is your definition of a lucid dream?
A dream in which you know you are dreaming, and know that everythng you see & experience exists entirely within your own mind.

>How come you think of a lucid dream as something different from an ordinary dream and how do you personally distinguish between the two states?
In an ordinary dream I don't know it's a dream, I think I'm awake and seeing real things. If I know it's a dream, it's not an ordinary dream.

>Do you think/feel there is any difference in degree of self-awareness in the two states?
No. In fact I often have lucid dreams that are very fuzzy/unclear, and ordinary dreams that were crisp, clear, and in dazzling color.

 

[Piggy]

What is your definition of a lucid dream?

A dream in which the dreamer knows s/he's dreaming.

How come you think of a lucid dream as something different from an ordinary dream and how do you personally distinguish between the two states?

For me, "ordinary dreams" are lucid. I don't think there are "two states". "Lucid dream" just means you know you're dreaming while you're dreaming.

Do you think/feel there is any difference in degree of self-awareness in the two states?

I don't know what you mean by "self-awareness".

How does the experience of a waking state differ from that of a normal dream, apart from the hallucinations?

Well, for one, in a waking state your body isn't paralyzed. Also, in a waking state, your "logical checks" modules aren't disengaged (which is what makes you accept as perfectly reasonable the character who "is" your dad but looks like your 3rd grade teacher and who morphs into Winston Churchill). There are patterns of brain activity that also distinguish b/t the two states.

If you mean subjective experience, then I don't see the relevance to the issue of detecting differences by using brain scans.

How does the experience of a waking state differ from that of a lucid dream, apart from the pseudo-hallucinations?

First, they feel entirely different, subjectively. Second, in a waking state I can't make things appear and disappear, jump over buildings, force myself to wake up, stop and rewind time, etc.

 

[3bz]

A dream in which the dreamer knows s/he's dreaming.


For me, "ordinary dreams" are lucid. I don't think there are "two states". "Lucid dream" just means you know you're dreaming while you're dreaming.


I don't know what you mean by "self-awareness".


Well, for one, in a waking state your body isn't paralyzed. Also, in a waking state, your "logical checks" modules aren't disengaged (which is what makes you accept as perfectly reasonable the character who "is" your dad but looks like your 3rd grade teacher and who morphs into Winston Churchill). There are patterns of brain activity that also distinguish b/t the two states.

If you mean subjective experience, then I don't see the relevance to the issue of detecting differences by using brain scans.


First, they feel entirely different, subjectively. Second, in a waking state I can't make things appear and disappear, jump over buildings, force myself to wake up, stop and rewind time, etc.

Completely agree with the first one. I think the problem lies in the second answer you give, I do see them as two different states and in lucid dreams your "logical check modules" don't seem to be disengaged. The "logical check models" supposedly being the dorsolateral parts of the prefrontal cortex.
My point is that I want, to find the neural correlates of each state of consciousness (sleep, normal dreams, lucid dreams), if you don't see any point in that when in comes to the study of consciousness, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise Contrasting different or abnormal states from a "baseline" state of consciousness is vital for progress in consciousness studies.

So if there is indeed a difference in brain activity to be measured by functional brain imaging (hmm I hope there is not some misunderstanding here, as to make you think I'm implying the use of structural imaging) between the normal dreaming and lucid dreaming state, I don't see it as trivial.

Making it simple by just talking about the sleeping state and "logical check modules), you can put it like this:

Wakefulness: Not sleeping, logical check modules engaged
Sleep NREM+REM: Sleeping, logical check modules disengaged
Lucid dreaming: Sleeping, logical check modules engaged

Things of interest include not only the fact that the logical check modules work (since they do that while you are awake aswell) in the lucid state, but being able to research how and why that is possible in a sleeping subject.

Does this help in any way? I don't have the energy to start explaining the concept of self-awareness and how that relates to reflective and phenomenal consciousness, I don't think it's needed (although it does have it's place) for this discussion either, my bad for bringing it up in the first place

 

[Piggy]

3bz, it seems we don't agree on whether lucid dreams are likely to appear measurably distinct from non-lucid dreams. But certainly, checking for activity in areas associated with hypothesis-testing is an interesting possibility.

 

[3bz]

3bz, it seems we don't agree on whether lucid dreams are likely to appear measurably distinct from non-lucid dreams. But certainly, checking for activity in areas associated with hypothesis-testing is an interesting possibility.

We do seem to disagree, and yes, trying to find neural correlates of consciousness is interesting (to me that is)

 

[osmosis]

I don't understand.

What exactly do you mean by "awareness"?

Knowing you're dreaming is awareness of the fact that you are dreaming.

You seem to be discussing differences between states of sleep and waking, which do register differently. But we're taking here about being clearly in a dream state, and understanding that this is the state you're in.

Mental states are not on/off switches, one can be in more than one at the same time. Becoming aware of dreaming is simply the dream state with a bit of conscious awareness thrown in. Neural firing patterns indicative of dreaming and being awake would therefore be found, and specifically, there would be increased activity in the Reticular Formation, the gating mechanism I alluded to in the previous post.

This would be measurable from sophisticated equipment, which was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Piggy]

Becoming aware of dreaming is simply the dream state with a bit of conscious awareness thrown in. Neural firing patterns indicative of dreaming and being awake would therefore be found, and specifically, there would be increased activity in the Reticular Formation, the gating mechanism I alluded to in the previous post.

a localized area in the brain stem that acts as a "gate", controlling awareness

Well, what you're saying is phrased in extremely general terms, so I don't know if it describes anything that would reasonably be expected or not.

The term "awareness" is one I don't understand. Could refer to a lot of different things.

But in any case, I reckon you could do tests looking for any activity not normally associated with dream states, but normally associated with waking states. Just go on a fishing trip -- pure research.

You might find something, you might not.

If there is a specific region associated with hypothesis-testing ("logic check") modules, then perhaps there would be a difference in activity there. One theory of dreaming holds that our ordinary hypothesis-testing processes are not engaged during dreams -- we allow ourselves to arrive at possible conclusions that our brain would reject while awake.

But still, that theory isn't yet very firm, from what I understand.