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Lucid Dreaming

As I've mentioned before, I almost never remember my dreams. It's simply a rare event, hence why I remember the few that I can so vivedly after all this time.

I also have found out people who remember far more of their dreams even see sleep a little differently than I do. My mother, for example (apparently I didn't inherit this from her) sees sleep as an "event", every night she basically just wonders what's going to happen. That is opposed to someone like me who, though I normally don't even think about it, just sees sleep as "rest", a peaceful nonexistance for a bit until the new day dawns.

As for thinking of meaning in dreams... Well considering the nonsense going on in them and the lowered functionality of logic parts of the brain (though I have had the fortune of being able to read a few times, meaning that may be a little more active in me during dreams), I wouldn't trust my dreams to interpret or "think through" anything for me (even if that is going on), must less "reveal" something.
 
I used to lucid dream a long time ago. My parents used to make me go to bed way too early since I only needed about 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night. I learned to lucid dream from the time I spent awake day dreaming (at night). I found I could think about an imaginary event and then dream about it and remember the dream. I was also a light sleeper and would wake up if there was a reason to but with discrimination. If someone was moving around because they were using the toilet at night I would not wake up but if there was other unusual activity I would wake. As my real life started to become more fun than my dreams I kind of quit having lucid dreams however I still have them once in a while but not the intentional type I used to have. I am just able to control myself in the dream and remember it . One thing I did in lucid dreams and mostly what I remember of my current lucid dreams is to repeat a nightmare until I find a satisfactory ending.
 
My dreams are all very odd. I even repeat them. A few days ago, I dreamed of an event (without me), then went back to before that event to see what I myself did. I was just watching the first time, the second time I saw what I did.

It was odd.

I fly in dreams, go through walls, have dream memories (memories of the dream, memories of the dream-self), and if I want light in a darkened room I have to create it myself. I've given up on light switches.
 
Back when I was younger, before I turned 5 at least, I had one really wierd reoccurring lucid nightmare. Someone was always chasing me, and I figured out that if I hid under a blanket and repeatedly said "I want my mommy" over and over again I would wake up. Wierdest dream I ever had involved a cat which hated me, was in my bedroom, and said to me in James Earl Jones voice, "I'm going to kill you."
The One lucid dream I had I made myself batman.
 
I've given up on light switches.

So this really is a common phenomenon in dreams?

I wonder why that should be.

I can understand a potential theory of why reading might be difficult, if those modules of the brain aren't active in dream state. But why should it be common that light switches don't work?

:confused:
 
So this really is a common phenomenon in dreams?

I wonder why that should be.

I can understand a potential theory of why reading might be difficult, if those modules of the brain aren't active in dream state. But why should it be common that light switches don't work?

:confused:

Well, in real life things like text, devices, and even gravity work because they are independent to us - all we do is perceive the information. However in a dream, the sensory information for a light switch, for example, is internal in origin, not external. So in real life the light switch will work because there is an actual light switch being used; in your dream, there is just the false perception of one, so it will not always work. It's not that this part of your brain isn't working, it's that there's no light switch to work properly.

The same thing goes for gravity - in real life it really is gravity which keeps our feet on the ground, but in a dream, there is no gravity. The only reason you walk around on the ground is because you expect to, it's a habit resulting from walking around because of real gravity during the daytime. So if you were to have a lucid dream, you could say 'Hey, there really is no gravity here, just my expectation that gravity is holding me on the ground,' once you realize it's literally just a 'habit' which has carried over from real life, you're free to go fly away :)
 
So in real life the light switch will work because there is an actual light switch being used; in your dream, there is just the false perception of one, so it will not always work. It's not that this part of your brain isn't working, it's that there's no light switch to work properly.

The same thing goes for gravity - in real life it really is gravity which keeps our feet on the ground, but in a dream, there is no gravity. The only reason you walk around on the ground is because you expect to, it's a habit resulting from walking around because of real gravity during the daytime.
Sorry, I don't get that.

What I'm hearing is that for lots of folks, light switches in dreams never work.

Why should that be?

Most of the time, in dreams, gravity works. Sometimes it doesn't.

In real life, most of the time, light switches work, sometimes they don't. Why should it be that light switches, in particular, for some folks, never work in dreams?

I mean, I don't see people posting that cars never work for them in dreams. Or blenders. Or elecric razors. Why light switches?

For me, reading doesn't "work" in dreams. I can understand why there could be a biological basis for this.

But I don't understand what makes light switches special.
 
...If someone was moving around because they were using the toilet at night I would not wake up but if there was other unusual activity I would wake.

My pets do this... I'm implying no disrespect here, as I probably do it too, but have no way of knowing. As was discussed earlier, sound and other tactile sensations can enter our dreams, sometimes for what they are and other times mutated in creative ways. The Lucidity Institute once sold a device called a "PEST" which vibrated either randomly on its own (for a Reality Check) or upon a trigger when wired to the NovaDreamer during sleep. I owned one until it fell off my belt somewhere suring a fireworks display. Wish they still made them, but I'm getting off track.

LI also made audio devices because research showed how sound, especially the spoken word, could influence a dream from the outside. That was what prompted me to design LISA (mentioned earlier) and further my understanding of external stimuli. My wife hated it because, in her words, it's like sleeping with Frankenstein. Granted the wires and ***** were a hinderance to certain marital obligations, but we'll leave it at that.:confused:

During sleep we're exposed to a plethora of sounds. My dogs bark at the mailman, my refrigerator compressor turns on and off, and that damn nuclear testing ground keeps tweaking the tonnage to yield... oops, said too much. My point is: things we hear regularly don't work as cues. How many times have some of us awakened at 7:58 just to turn off the 8:00 alarm?

I believe our minds get accustomed to situations and adapt. It's the things like spoken-word news stories that are different every day that "get through." I believe its that contrast between the "expected" and the "unknown" which triggers the subconscious awareness that "this is something to pay attention to" and wakes us up.

The Spanish Castle Illusion is a good illustration of how our minds "fill in the blanks" during dreams. Hearing things we're not accustomed to is, I believe, a survival skill.
 
If someone was moving around because they were using the toilet at night I would not wake up...

how would you possibly know this? Is this conjecture or do you actually recall not waking having heard it? You see the paradox here? Are you assuming the toilet was used, or are you assuming the user's movements weren't heard?
 
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Since there's been some discussion and thought about the function of dreams, I'd like to add some. Most theories deny that the conscious experience of dreaming itself would be useful in a biological sense, it's only the neurophysiologcal events associated with dreaming that are useful in this sense.

Activation synthesis theory (and AIM being a sort of update to it) treat dreams and mere byproducts of neurological events, ie random noise.

Then there's the reverse learning theory, which is basically pretty similar, dreams are byproducts of the "cleaning up" process which occurs in the brain during REM sleep, this happens to clear up memory space to avoid "overload".

Then we have Flanagan who denies that dreaming would be functional at all.

There's a cognitive theory of dreaming also, according to it, dreams are formed by diffuse mnemonic activation, ie. different memory traces are in a random/semi-random manner. Then a "dream production system" organizes these activated traces into coherent experiences, this system draws upon knowledge of how events are ordered in the waking world and builds scripts from that information.

So the phenomenal part of dreams seems to widely regarded as an epiphenomenon, but there's of course the idea of dreams as a problem/emotional solving facility.

Finally we have some theories that take dreaming to be functional in the evolutionary sense.

One regards sleep as an adaptive mode of behaviour for creatures that had to spend most of their time hiding. The REM sleep period then serves a preparatory function, it actives the brain in order to prepare it for possible fight/flight. So it works as some kind of anticipatory system to help out in events encounterd immediately after havig had a dream.

Yet another theory proposes that information important for survival is accessed during REM sleep and then integrated with past experience to provide a strategy for future behaviour (hippocampal thetha rythms during wakefulness and REM sleep, these rythms haven't been recorded in humans though).

Last in this little list is the threat simulation theory of dreaming, which is the most recent. It says that: "The biological function of dreaming is the simulation of threatening events and the repeated rehersal of threat perception and threat avoidance responses"

So dreming is an evolutionary adaptation, it's function is threat simulation and the function evolved as a repsonse to ancestral selection pressures.

It works by a dream production mechanism selecting memory traces from long term memory which are then used as a base for constructing dream images. Memories with the highest emotional salience and/or most recently encoded/re-activated are most likely to be selected, these memories often include information about situations critical to survival.

Hence threatening waking events will be simulated repeatedly in various combinations in dreams, if this develops/maintains threat avoidance skills, it would have increased the fitness of the individuals in posession of it, ie. higher survival/reproduction rate.

The theory also included six empirically testable propositions, but I'm too lazy to write more on this subject.

When it comes to lucid dreaming it would be nice to get some test subjects with a stable recurrence of lucid dreams together, then do a functional brain scan of them as they enter the lucid dreaming mode. Since you supposedly need an active prefrontal cortex to have anything more than basic phenonmenal consciousness, the hypothesis would be frontal lobe activity correlated with the lucid dreaming, if that didn't happen, it would pose some interesting questions. Can't understand why noone has done the experiment already :)

On a more personal note, lucid dreaming in fun when you are fully in control, which doesn't always happen. As mentioned by some other people earlier an easy induction technique is to keep track of things that you find impossible to do when dreaming (like reading, using some technical devices and such), then try to do those things, which should help increase your rate of lucid dreams a bit, without much effort.

Hi All.

My concern is that many folks I've talked with tend to attach some kind of religious or spiritual significance to lucid dreaming. This bothers me because I'd rather have a discussion with other LD'ers that is stripped of "enlightenment" overtones. A lot of the boards on the net tend to group LDs with out-of-body experiences and TM, which in my opinion is pure quackery. LD'ing is nothing more than simply realizing when you're dreaming, that's it. There's no mystery/magic about it.

As a reply to this, I'm not sure what TM is, but I wonder why you talk about OBEs as pure quackery? In the sense of there being some silly kind of astral body, I obviously agree with you, but if you are trying to deny experiences that doesn't seem like a smart thing to do. Various forms of autoscopic phenomena (AP/OBE is about the same thing, just that in AP, you by definition see yourself or some form/shadow of yourself) have been researched and there is nothing quacky about it.


***EDIT***

I just checked and I guess TM stands for Transcendental Meditation, which I don't know much about, but just like when it comes to other forms of meditation, there's been studies and meditation has been correlated with increased gamma activity and supposeedly increased alpha/gamma/theta activity in TM.

If you are merely pointing to the fact that it would be quackery for TM practitioners to point to some "other-wordly" effect of TM, I agree. Fringe phenomena in themselves, their phenomenological aspects and neural correlates are highly interesting though and in my opinion a necessary part in the scientific study of consciousness, just like you can infer disociations from cases in neuropsychology.

Anyway, rant mode off...


***EDIT***
 
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The Spanish Castle Illusion is a good illustration of how our minds "fill in the blanks" during dreams.
With all due respect, no it's not. This illusion is entirely visual, in a purely physical sense, and has nothing to do with the filters which sort input during various states of consciousness.
 
I'm not sure what TM is

I've always heard it as an acronym for Transcendental Meditation, which is also associated with "yogic flying". TM is most famous for bogus claims that getting a "critical mass" of people to perform TM is associated with lower crime rates in a given city, and so forth.
 
How many times have some of us awakened at 7:58 just to turn off the 8:00 alarm?
I used to have the ability to turn off the alarm just as it started to ring (less than a second of ring) I actually would wake and reach for the alarm before it rang and hit it just as it went off with great regularity. At some point I realized I could just think of a time to wake at and I would awake at that time as long as it is at least 4 hours after I go to sleep. I know nothing of LI or any devices and all of this occurred years before I ever heard the words "lucid dreaming".
 
When it comes to lucid dreaming it would be nice to get some test subjects with a stable recurrence of lucid dreams together, then do a functional brain scan of them as they enter the lucid dreaming mode. Since you supposedly need an active prefrontal cortex to have anything more than basic phenonmenal consciousness, the hypothesis would be frontal lobe activity correlated with the lucid dreaming, if that didn't happen, it would pose some interesting questions. Can't understand why noone has done the experiment already :)

Lucidity Instute at Stanford University.

I apologise to those I may have offended, but I did pre-qualify my thoughts with "I believe that... " If anyone was offended or mistook my own thoughts/findings as fact, I'm truly and sincerely sorry you did so.

I'm just as interested as anyone, but never claimed to do this scientifically. These are only my opinions, which I'd hoped was made clear earlier. I'm simply another lucid dreamer attempting to further understand that state. Nothing more. My speculations are just that.
 
Lucidity Instute[/URL] at Stanford University.

I apologise to those I may have offended, but I did pre-qualify my thoughts with "I believe that... " If anyone was offended or mistook my own thoughts/findings as fact, I'm truly and sincerely sorry you did so.

I'm just as interested as anyone, but never claimed to do this scientifically. These are only my opinions, which I'd hoped was made clear earlier. I'm simply another lucid dreamer attempting to further understand that state. Nothing more. My speculations are just that.

I didn't take any offense, what in your post could possibly have offended me?

I did look through the lucidity site, they only had two listed experiments, I did not find any of them interesting for my line of study though.

My point was not at all to criticize your post, I just saw some talk about dreams and wanted to add some info on a few theories put fourth by different people, thnking it might happen to be of interest to someone. :)
 
With all due respect, no it's not. This illusion is entirely visual, in a purely physical sense, and has nothing to do with the filters which sort input during various states of consciousness.

I agree. I was using that as an analogy to show how our minds are capable of "adding to" a situation that doesn't exist. I believe we inherently rationalize chaos into explainable forms. I believe it's why we see Aliens or Conspiracies in RANDOM INFORMATION.

The Castle Illusion is nothing more than a demonstration of Negative After-Imagery. Though visual, it's a demonstration of how simple observations can be skewed.

Lucid dreaming is no different. It's easy for some to attach a Woo-element to it. Some sell books on Dream Interpretation, others sell herbs. I would like to maintain scientific discourse, but I'm not perfect by any means... I'm only interested.
 
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From my early early life I've dreamt in the Semi-Lucid "wow, I'm dreaming" state nearly every night. Additionally I can not only usually recall the last night's dreams but dreams from years gone by.

My opinions/information based solely on that which I have experienced with dreams:

Light switches? Never had a problem there.
Falling from great heights? I land, stand up and look for a way to do the fall again... I love that sensation.
I've died in my dreams many many times.
I gain full control only rarely.
Spirtual/Relgious meaning? none as far as I'm concerned.

Dream Interpretation? Completely impossible with my dreams. Dream interpretation tends to only take into account that which is recalled as a visual aspect of the dream. This is only one portion of the dream. I'm curious if anyone else has had this multi-dimensional aspect to their dreams. Along with the visual aspect I also have a completely combined emotional, auditory, sensual ( not the naughty kind :P ), and informational experience. I am provided with what I call "Dream Knowledge" which I can only describe as "That which is known to be true in the dream reality." Even if I'm semi/fully lucid there tends to be information that I have regarding the situation that I can usually understand to have only originated from the dream.

Physical locations in my dreams have a nearly 1:1 ratio with physical positions in the waking world. The contents of the physical position can be completely different from the waking world but I can usually pinpoint where in the waking world something experienced in the dream experience correlates to.


The most interesting thing that has happened to me this year, dreamwise, is regarding the old standby of "I need to run, but my feet aren't moving fast enough."

The situation: I need to run from something in the dream but find my ability to move my feet impeded for an unknown reason (remember I'm semi-lucid mostly). One day I woke up recalling that for a very long time I hadn't had the problem with the sluggish feet. It turned out that without conciously trying my mind had solved this problem by modifying my method of "running." I no longer ran by using my feet, but instead used my hands. Since I wasn't using my sluggishly-prone legs and feet, the problem disappeared completely.


I also suffer from intermittant sleep paralysis which seems to have been nearly eliminated by my antidepressants (which I also find to be interesting). I was experiencing sleep paralysis 4-5 times per week, and though it can be quite frightening, once I was aware of what it was I found it could induce a fully lucid state.
 
Sorry, I don't get that.

What I'm hearing is that for lots of folks, light switches in dreams never work.

Why should that be?

Most of the time, in dreams, gravity works. Sometimes it doesn't.

In real life, most of the time, light switches work, sometimes they don't. Why should it be that light switches, in particular, for some folks, never work in dreams?

It's not always light switches that never work though, other devices malfunction as well - digital watches are a very famous example. In my personally experience, light switches don't act up any more than any other device, and I believe this is because of the reason I mentioned before; there is no actually device there to function, just a representation of one being dreamed by by your rather inconsistent dreaming mind, which is why devices are much less likely to work properly in dreams.
However there probably are lots of cases of people hearing that light switches don't work in dreams, which leads them to expect they don't work. Many dream researchers believe that expectation and motivation are key players in determining dream content while the dream is happening, so maybe this explains a few of those cases.

3bz said:
I did look through the lucidity site, they only had two listed experiments, I did not find any of them interesting for my line of study though.

If you're interested, Dr. LaBerge talks about much more of the experiments he did for his PhD dissertation in his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming.
I'm not aware of whether any one's looked at the pre-rontal cortex like you mentioned, but LaBerge's experiments with the polygraph where subjects perform previously agreed upon actions while lucid would seem to suggest that in a (medium to highly) lucid dream, your critical faculties are indeed working.
 

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