Lucid Dreaming

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I'm afraid that, the instant lucidity is achieved, my 'dream characters' become puppets. I can ask them questions, but I hear the answers I expect to hear. The only time that hasn't been true was the first time I encountered another dreamwalker. I asked a question, and she replied, "Why don't you ask yourself that?" and then vanished.

Too bad. I have been able tu sustain interesting discussions with dream characters. They often surprise me with very interesting questions of their own (like, if Im not aware, why can I behave in a way you cant predict?), sometimes they make me doubt if Im "just dreaming" because they start to act like if I was insane or something, for example, I realice Im in a LD and tell people around that I will lift a car just with my "mental powers", and I cant, and dream characters start to look me weird, like if I were crazy, and to talk between them about it, to the point when I ask myself If Im dreaming or awake!

Has other lucid dreamers have experimented something like that?

Exactly. In a singular perception, to see all surfaces/sides of an object. And in absolute detail - none of the fuzziness of my vision, none of the haze of inches of atmosphere, but absolute sensation of detail. Which may well be why some claim their dreams seem more real than reality itself.

Absolute Detail yes, I have been there. I could argue that, that in some dreams, the "perceived reality" seems to be more real than this one. It is funny, and weird.

 

[Z]

Well, as others have pointed out, 'Lucid' doesn't mean 'controlling' for most people. For me, it does. My 'lucid at will' ability is directly connected to my attempts at dream control, resulting from horrible nightmares I wanted to be free from.

Alas, this means that, unless I'm seizing control of the dream, I can't actually realize I'm dreaming.

Odd, I think...

As to sensation within the dream, it actually makes perfect sense that the things you sense in the dream seem more 'real' - in the sense of accurate, detailed, etc... To me, more 'real' means fuzzier and indistinct, simply because I'm aware that my senses are imperfect, that there are a lot of places where signal degrades from source to brain. In the dream, there is the generating portion of the brain, and the receiving portion, and the two are very close together, unimpeded by atmosphere, imperfect eyes, etc.

And since your brain is creating the object, why wouldn't it already know exactly what it looks like, from every angle, in perfect detail and clarity?

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Well, as others have pointed out, 'Lucid' doesn't mean 'controlling' for most people. For me, it does. My 'lucid at will' ability is directly connected to my attempts at dream control, resulting from horrible nightmares I wanted to be free from.

Alas, this means that, unless I'm seizing control of the dream, I can't actually realize I'm dreaming.

Odd, I think...

As to sensation within the dream, it actually makes perfect sense that the things you sense in the dream seem more 'real' - in the sense of accurate, detailed, etc... To me, more 'real' means fuzzier and indistinct, simply because I'm aware that my senses are imperfect, that there are a lot of places where signal degrades from source to brain. In the dream, there is the generating portion of the brain, and the receiving portion, and the two are very close together, unimpeded by atmosphere, imperfect eyes, etc.

And since your brain is creating the object, why wouldn't it already know exactly what it looks like, from every angle, in perfect detail and clarity?

Yep, thats what I think. Still, it poses questions about the world we see when we are awake.

Talking about control, sometimes I do want to control everything in the dream, a la god, but some others I just want to be there, experiencing a virtual reality that is just for me, like a private universe.

What I find interesting is that sometimes I do have absolute control like if I were god, and some others I seem unable to even fly or move objects "with my mind". It feels really strange to know that I am in my very own dream and at the same time I have no "special abilities", like in here.

 

[Z]

Oh, it took me years to achieve even simple basic control. Now, a couple of decades later, I can pretty much do as I want - though usually, as soon as I realize I'm lucid, I just force-drift back into normal dreams. They're much more entertaining.

 

[BillyJoe]

Re: Re: Qualia in Lucid Dreams

Shera,

And back in the days when survival was more of an issue, I bet most adults if they had a choice would have preferred to stay up so they could have reduced the risk for becoming a predator's snack.

Just an interesting point....

Some critics of evolution cite sleep as something that cannot be
explained by evolution - because it reduces survival potential.

However, if you consider that initially all life was unconscious (eg single cells are not conscious), evolution could be considered the method by which total 24 hour unconciousness has been gradually reduced to an average of 7 hours (in the case of humans). So the process of evolution has, in fact, increased our survival potential just as we would expect.

BJ

 

[BillyJoe]

I have been able to sustain interesting discussions with dream characters. They often surprise me with very interesting questions of their own....

I have had similar experiences.

But those questions must obviously be coming from our own brains, perhaps oozing up out of the deep subconscious part of our minds.


BTW, I have had numerous LUCID dreams since my early teens but only a few short lasting VIVID dreams and only over the past year or so. The first time was when I was lapsing in and out of sleep one day after a sleepless night. It was shortly after discussing this very topic on this forum. I was somewhat of a sceptic about VIVID dreaming at the time. Someone suggested that next time I have a LUCID dream, I look at an object and examine it carefully to see the detail. I chose a leaf and the transformation was remarkably VIVID.
As a result, all of my VIVID dreams, so far, have been LUCID.

BillyJoe

 

[Red Siegfried]

Re: Re: Re: Qualia in Lucid Dreams

Shera,

Just an interesting point....

Some critics of evolution cite sleep as something that cannot be
explained by evolution - because it reduces survival potential.

However, if you consider that initially all life was unconscious (eg single cells are not conscious), evolution could be considered the method by which total 24 hour unconciousness has been gradually reduced to an average of 7 hours (in the case of humans). So the process of evolution has, in fact, increased our survival potential just as we would expect.

BJ

Wow! What an interesting idea. I have never thought of sleep in that way before. Do you think it's possible that sometime further if evolution continues on a particular path we could evolve away from the need for sleep altogether?

I like to sleep (and eat) but I've often thought about how it would be really useful to be able to go without either for extended periods of time when needed.

 

[epepke]

Perhaps because so many of us have personal memories of being aware that we were dreaming.

It's a little easier to accept "anecdotal" evidence when it's your own anecdote.

In fact, I don't understand why there is even any doubt or big deal made about lucid dreaming. Sometimes you are lucid, sometimes you aren't. Why did this ever achieve woo-woo status?

Also known as "personal knowledge."

Once I had a dream. In that dream I was talking to someone who said, "So what you're saying is that all your dreams are lucid?" "Yes," I replied, "except for this one."

Another dream I had I was sitting at a bar. Someone who looked like my mother came in and sat next to me. I said to her, "Come on, now, isn't this just a bit Freudian?"

Assuming that I'm not lying, and I had these dreams, I don't see how either can be explained if one assumes that lucid dreaming (or a sense of irony) does not exist.

For that matter, I have no evidence beyond personal knowledge that dreams at all exist. Yeah, there's REM, but maybe everyone else is just twitching their eyeballs.

But still, the lemma to "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is that ordinary claims require ordinary evidence.

 

[Kaylee]

Lucid or Awake?

How do you lucid dream purposely? Try doing regular reality checks throughout your day until they get to be a habit. Ask yourself "Am I dreaming? Is this real?" Eventually it gets to be a habit and next thing you know you start doing it when you are dreaming. And you realize you are

That basically sounds like a variation of what I was doing while I was growing up. Obviously I wasn't asking if I was dreaming, but in a sense I was testing my reality in other ways every time I was checking my interpretation of the conversations and sounds around me.

It might be interesting to research and see if deaf and blind people have more lucid dreamers than the population in general. I would bet the answer would be yes. I would also expect that people who work in high-risk fields like policing, military, etc. to also have higher rates of lucid dreamers. In general, I would expect any group that has to be extremely aware of what is going on around them at all times to have high rates of lucid dreamers.

 

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by Bodhi Dharma Zen
… I have been able tu sustain interesting discussions with dream characters. …
Has other lucid dreamers have experimented something like that?

Recently and sometimes. I had never thought of doing that but about 4 months ago I met someone on line who said he does that in lucid dreams frequently so I thought I would give it a try. So now, if I have a question about what's going on in a dream I'll just ask. Other times I may think about what I want to dream about before I go to sleep with the idea of triggering a dream to get fresh insights. It's interesting. I honestly don't know why I don't try this more often, I guess by the end of the day I'm too tired to think about it.

 

[Kaylee]

And back in the days when survival was more of an issue, I bet most adults if they had a choice would have preferred to stay up so they could have reduced the risk for becoming a predator's snack.

Originally posted by BillyJoe
Some critics of evolution cite sleep as something that cannot be
explained by evolution - because it reduces survival potential.

However, if you consider that initially all life was unconscious (eg single cells are not conscious), evolution could be considered the method by which total 24 hour unconciousness has been gradually reduced to an average of 7 hours (in the case of humans). So the process of evolution has, in fact, increased our survival potential just as we would expect.

That's an interesting point. Also I think that people who attempted to solve their survival problems by grouping up rather than trying to take the lone ranger approach also increased their survival potential. I suppose we could have evolved to not need 7 hours of daily sleep, but that still would have left people at risk for when they were sick, injured or just needed to gang up on a very large predator or predators.

Grouping up would have solved all those problems and also had enough people available to take turns doing night watches. So in a backwards kind of way, evolving so that we are still unconscious 7 hours a day may have actually increased our survival potential.

(As you can see I've been thinking about this since I posted earlier. )

 

[Kaylee]

Originally posted by epepke
Once I had a dream. In that dream I was talking to someone who said, "So what you're saying is that all your dreams are lucid?" "Yes," I replied, "except for this one."

LOL!

 

[BillyJoe]

Shera,

Grouping up would have solved all those problems and also had enough people available to take turns doing night watches. So in a backwards kind of way, evolving so that we are still unconscious 7 hours a day may have actually increased our survival potential.

That's a good point also.

While we were reducing our time of unconsciousness from 24 to 7 hours a day (so as to increase our survival potential), we were also starting to form groups (also to increase our survival potential). Then once we formed sufficiently large groups, it was no longer necessary to continue to reduce our time of unconsciousness because the groups protected us while we slept.

I guess that is what you were saying, hey?

regards,
BillyJoe

 

[Kaylee]

Basically.

I see how it could work for people. I honestly don't know enough about animals to see how it works for them though.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

The first time was when I was lapsing in and out of sleep one day after a sleepless night. It was shortly after discussing this very topic on this forum. I was somewhat of a sceptic about VIVID dreaming at the time. Someone suggested that next time I have a LUCID dream, I look at an object and examine it carefully to see the detail. I chose a leaf and the transformation was remarkably VIVID.

As a result, all of my VIVID dreams, so far, have been LUCID.

I was the one

 

[Placebo]

From rppa
How about "skeptical thought about human abilities only extends to capabilities that there's some reason to think are hard to do".
I wouldn't doubt somebody who claimed to be able to juggle

Ah, right. So being awake while being asleep is completely understandable and not hard at all to achieve

From rppa
If you want someone to extend critical thinking to this claim, what would that look like? Lay out for me please your ideal critical thinker's reaction to people's descriptions of their dreams.

How is a critical thinker to treat a claim that has no evidence? Exactly.

From BillyJoe
Do you mean it's an effort to respond to the question of reading whilst in a lucid dream, or do you mean it's a strain to read in a lucid dream?

I mean that it is a strain to read a passage of 'dream text' whilst in a dream. However I can do it fairly well.

From BillyJoe
But seriously, I would need some real hard evidence before accepting that statement as true.

This is the same as disproving that I dreamt of my cat last night.
Prove me wrong ... You can't
As epepke noted: 'For that matter, I have no evidence beyond personal knowledge that dreams at all exist. Yeah, there's REM, but maybe everyone else is just twitching their eyeballs.'
And this is exactly what rppa was pointing at too.

As such, I don't particularly care if you cannot find a reason to believe that I can read in a lucid dream.
However I would like to find better evidence for lucid dreaming in general for those that have not experienced it.

From BillyJoe
But seriously, I would need some real hard evidence before accepting that statement as true.
Perhaps you could qualify a little. What do you mean by "pretty well"?

As mentioned, I can read a poem of approx 8 lines, word for word. I recalled only 4 of those lines upon awakening.

As for Shera's stand, you wish to trust in the skeptics on this site. That's of course your choice, however it would be nice to be able to convince others that are not so happy to do so.
Regarding it not being dangerous, of course it can be dangerous. That NovaDreamer sold by lucidity.com is darn expensive. They promote people to put it on 'one's own personal payroll'.

Very interesting theory, zaayrdragon

From BillyJoe
But still, the lemma to "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is that ordinary claims require ordinary evidence.

So you consider the claim that you can remain awake while asleep to be 'ordinary' ?

Regarding all the other tips and tricks that are being discussed, they are fairly common on sites such as ld4all.com and dreamviews.com.
Very good sites those

Out of interest (for those that have it) - Things I have done in lucid dreams:
- Written a poem - albiet pathetic
- Performed telekinesis
- Become a woman and found a quiet corner to ... explore
- Flown like superman (and magneto and with a flying carpet )
- Fought superman (as an evil villian)
- 'Ghosted' - like those twins in The Matrix
- Created forcefields like Violet in The Incredibles
- Surfed off a building into thin air
- Used a nightmare wolf as a pogo stick
... a bit more...

 

[BillyJoe]

I was the one

Thanks.

 

[BillyJoe]

Placebo,

I was being only half serious.
I do find it extraordinary that you could read while simultaneously composing an eight line poem, but I'm sure it's possible.

BTW, that last quote is not mine. I think it was epepke

BJ

 

[BillyJoe]

IT'S NOT DIFFICULT TO BELIEVE AN ANECDOTE WHEN IT IS YOUR OWN

Some reasons for caution:

1) Illusion
2) Self-delusion
3) Mis-perception
4) Hallucination

BJ

 

[Kaylee]

As for Shera's stand, you wish to trust in the skeptics on this site. That's of course your choice,

I have! That is news to me! lol.
Seriously, I don't take anything on trust. If I implied otherwise, please show me the quote.

Regarding it not being dangerous, of course it can be dangerous. That NovaDreamer sold by lucidity.com is darn expensive. They promote people to put it on 'one's own personal payroll'.

The <a href=http://www.wellnesstools.com/dreammaker.php> DreamMaker Pro </a> certainly seems overpriced for what most people manage to do naturally or learn on their own. Unfortunately name a product, any product and I can find you an overpriced version of it. Overpriced products alone do not make an area "paranormal" although yes, they are often available for sale whenever the harmful and fraudulent variety of paranormality is being marketed. Overpriced products may be a symptom but not the proof.

Anyway, you did motivate me to do some more reading. Wikipedia is one of my favorite online resources and they have an interesting on lucid dreaming. Check out the 3 additional articles footnoted in the wiki article mid-page also -- this <a href=http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/si91ld.html >one in particular.

A quick read shows that lucid dreaming has been proven scientifically since 1978 in experiments that have been successfully been replicated in more than one lab. Keith Hearne did the first successful experiment:

It was Keith Hearne (1978), of the University of Hull, who first exploited the fact that not all the muscles are paralyzed. In REM sleep the eyes move. So perhaps a lucid dreamer could signal by moving the eyes in a predetermined pattern. Just over ten years ago, lucid dreamer Alan Worsley first managed this in Hearne’s laboratory. He decided to move his eyes left and right eight times in succession whenever he became lucid. Using a polygraph, Hearne could watch the eye movements for signs of the special signal. He found it in the midst of REM sleep. So lucid dreams are real dreams and do occur during REM sleep.

Other scientists moved on and did experiments to show how to successfully induce lucid dreaming (which is IMHO, indirectly, also additional sucessful replication):

Many methods have been developed (Gackenbach and Bosveld 1989; Tart 1988; Price and Cohen 1988). They roughly fall into three categories.

I suspect that the people referenced above wrote about the research but may not have done the research themselves, but additional researchers are mentioned further along in the Blackmore article.

Lastly lucid dreaming is a common phenomena. Some surveys show that about 50% of the population have had lucid dreams.

Surveys have shown that about 50 percent of people (and in some cases more) have had at least one lucid dream in their lives. (See, for example, Blackmore 1982; Gackenbach and LaBerge 1988; Green 1968.)

So we have a widely common phenomena that has been lab-tested and successfully replicated in more than one lab. The article is a little light on explaining a theory (theories are usually part of scientifically accepted concepts) for it, but it does touch upon one.

Where is the paranormal aspect?

Edited because I didn't write this in a word documemt first...