Lucid Dreaming

[materia3]

duplicate

 

[materia3]

I've also experienced some sort of sleep paralysis a couple of times - one time I 'felt' this overwhelming urge to harm myself and when I eventually managed to wake up I actually woke up with a pair of scissors in my hand! Spooky. The other time I felt absolutely aware of everything in the room - except I just couldn't move anything but my eyes, try as I might. I felt this overwhelming sense of dread, although I could not relate it to anything I could see. Eventually (it felt) I woke up, gasping for air, trembling and with a pounding heart. I even get the chills right now just from the recollection of the experience. Really spooky stuff! In neither case had I had anything stronger than coffee or tee before the experience, and I've never been on medication or had addiction to alcohol or drugs.

Sleep paralysis is a normal ocurrence during REM sleep. It seems that it evolved to protect the dreamer from becoming physically involved in their dreams and hurting themselves or others. It looks like it worked in your case.

TIME magazine Dec 20th had a lengthy cover story devoted to sleep and its probably worth reading.

Waking up short of breath sounds also like you have obstructive sleep apnea. It is a symptom of that condition and you should be checked for it. If you have it can be treated.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Materia3- Thanks for the correction.

 

[malaka]

I've had quite a few lucid dreams. Trouble is, once I realize I'm dreaming, I realize I'm NOT actually with the supermodel or flying or being heroic. In fact, I realize I'm just lying in my stupid bed in my stupid life and I wake up.

Feet planted a little too firmly on ground, I guess.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Feet planted a little too firmly on ground, I guess.

Well....


There is ground under your feet while on your dreams

 

[Xeriar]

I was doing some reading up about dreams at Wikipedia and I ran across the term lucid dreaming. Apparently, lucid dreaming is when an individual realizes that they are in a dream and can fully control the dream (can pretty much do whatever they want in a dream setting). While I have never experienced this I have heard enough people say that they have experienced some form of this. The part I am questioning is further on in the article they say some people use techniques to become lucid dreamers, being able to lucid dream whenever they want. I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like it has a touch of the woo in it. Has anyone on these boards heard anything about this or maybe experienced it first hand and would like to talk about it?

Some of it's woo (bismuth stones) some not (hypnosis can help. Different people have different triggers, many people apparently go lucid by looking at their hands when they dream, but I do not. I dream weird, anyhow).

I also frequently have lucid dreams while not actually being aware that I'm dreaming, which is kinda cool.

 

[Xeriar]

The method I've had the most success with in initiating a lucid dream takes a fair amount of effort. Periodically during the day, say every hour or so, perform some test to determine if you're awake or not. Like you said, one good test is to try to read something, look away for a few seconds, and then read it again. That's how I achieved my first success in consciously initiating a lucid dream: I was dreaming that I was walking through a hallway, and there was a book sitting on a shelf. Thinking I was due for another "reality check," I picked up the book and read the first sentence, which was something about smugglers (I forget exactly what). When I read it again, it said, "You ought to do something about this." It was suprising to say the least to find out that that actually worked!

I tend to just try to meditate on a set of thoughts of what I want to dream about when I sleep. It works often enough.

Another thing you can do is look at your reflection in a mirror. I'll make eye contact with my reflection, and in a moment its eyes will start moving independently. The drawback of that method is that it's usually so freaky that the shock wakes me up. I've always had a bit of a mirror phobia.

For me, my body tends to shift and warp. Controlling it is amusing.

And, of course, I am always comicly endowed.

In fact, that's the most difficult thing about it for me. Even if the way I become lucid is mundane, the shock of realizing I'm dreaming -- that nothing I'm experiencing right now is real -- is too much ontological dissonance to handle, and I wake up with my heart pounding, like after a nightmare. It's rare that I can maintain a lucid dream for more than a minute or two.

I honestly just prefer to enjoy the fantasy, myself.

As for the dreams themselves, mine are both terrific and disappointing. I have pretty much unlimited power -- except, well, it's limited by my own self-consciousness. For example, I can fly, but I have difficulty controlling myself. Sometimes I jerk violently around a room; other times I can only bring myself to hover a few inches off the floor. Sometimes I have balance problems that prevent me from even walking right (it feels like one leg is longer than the other).

Something to help this (if you can remember) - if something doesn't respond to your control, just let go of it completely. Literally, forget it, it's not important. Eventually you will stumble across scenes and such that are easier to control.

As for sex (come on, that's what you all are thinking about!), it can be good or bad. The excitement can be there, but the physical sensations are a little...distant, at least for me. It makes sense, I suppose, since your body isn't actually getting any real physical stimulation. Or is it just the fact that I believe that which stops me from accepting the full experience? Hard question to answer. The upside of that is that you can do things that are normally very uncomfortable with no difficulty whatsoever.

I've had both a lot of sensation and no sensation, not sure how to control that yet.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Materia 3,

Thanks for the info and the advice.

I've only experienced waking up gasping for air about 2 or 3 times in my entire life, so I'm not alarmed that it's a prevailing obstructive sleep apnea condition. But thanks for your concern.

 

[phildonnia]

Unfortunately, the subject has attracted a woo element because of claims of clairvoyance, telepathy, and other forms of transcendence associated with lucid dreaming.

But the phenomenon has been scientifically verified, mainly through the use of eye movements to communicate from the dreamer to the waking world.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Sorgoth said:
I've had a lucid dream once before. What made me realize I was in a dream was that I couldn't read, and I remembered that people in dreams couldn't read...And then I could control myself fully.

We had an interesting conversation about this many months ago. The claim is that, in a dream, you cannot perform a high-resolution visual function such as reading because the V1 area of the brain is shut down. This is a tough one, because there is nothing stopping you from imagining you are reading during the dream, just as you can imagine you are walking. It sounds like the reading thing opened up some sort of cognitive link that allowed you to control the dream from then on. Pretty cool.

~~ Paul

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Paul

You can have a high resolution vision, as high as in here, every detail on objects or reflections or materials is there. My guess is that one cant read because some language related functions are not working like in the waking life. Good field of study!

 

[toddjh]

You can have a high resolution vision, as high as in here, every detail on objects or reflections or materials is there.

It definitely feels that way, but my gut feeling is that it's simply an illusion. I don't think our brains have the power to really generate a fully-detailed visual landscape, moment by moment. Rather, I think we only believe we're seeing things in high-resolution vision. All we're left with after a dream are memories, after all, and really, the memory of thinking we see lots of detail is just as good as the memory of actually seeing it.

I have a feeling that reading in dreams works along the same lines: I don't think you're literally seeing individual letters and assembling them into words in your head. More likely you're getting the mental impression of having done all that, without actually doing it.

Jeremy

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

toddjh,

Only conjectures? Trust me, I have been there, I know what I see. Think in this. The world as you know it is product of your senses and brain, the light, the textures, the sound, all these are products of your mind. In a way, this "objective" reality is a dream, a waking dream if you like. Note that Im not stating that the world is "mental", just like the world TO YOU is a product of your mind. In other words, the world of objects, space and time is just a construct.

While we are dreaming, the sensorial input is not there, but the rest of the "dream mechanism" is working. This is why the "objectivity" of the "dream reality" is not as tangible as in here, but the sensations, the perceptions, believe it or not, are of the same quality (in some LD dreams this is).

 

[toddjh]

Only conjectures? Trust me, I have been there, I know what I see.

I've been there too, and my experience is exactly the same as yours: it feels completely real. But...are you telling me you have perfect photographic recall of what you saw there? I sure don't. My recollection of images in real life isn't anywhere near perfect, and dreams are even more elusive. And if you don't have that kind of recall, how can you possibly distinguish between seeing in perfect clarity, and merely thinking you saw in perfect clarity?

I think it's unlikely that your brain actually created a full, 3D, picture-perfect reality in your head, with realistic reflection and refraction effects and stuff that computer graphics experts would kill for. I think the much simpler explanation is that you simply experienced the psychological effect of believing you saw everything in great detail.

While we are dreaming, the sensorial input is not there, but the rest of the "dream mechanism" is working. This is why the "objectivity" of the "dream reality" is not as tangible as in here, but the sensations, the perceptions, believe it or not, are of the same quality (in some LD dreams this is).

I'd say the same thing. Our perceptions of reality are psychological reactions to sensory input. The difference with dreams is that our perceptions of reality there are psychological reactions to other psychological reactions.

Jeremy

 

[malaka]

I've had quite a few lucid dreams. Trouble is, once I realize I'm dreaming, I realize I'm NOT actually with the supermodel or flying or being heroic. In fact, I realize I'm just lying in my stupid bed in my stupid life and I wake up.

Feet planted a little too firmly on ground, I guess.

Sorry to bring this up again. I'd like to turn my post into a question.

As I said above, once I become aware that I'm dreaming, my mind ruins it for me. My thoughts quickly go from, "Wow, I'm dreaming!" to "I can fly!" to "I'm not really flying at all." In fact, I think, "How would I even know what it feels or looks like to fly?" and I wake up.

How do you control the "logical" part of your brain (thoughts?) from spoiling it?

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

But...are you telling me you have perfect photographic recall of what you saw there?

Yes. I can tell you every imaginable detail, not only what I see, but what I hear, touch, feel, the force of the gravity, every tactile texture, the exact position of my body, etc.

I sure don't. My recollection of images in real life isn't anywhere near perfect, and dreams are even more elusive. And if you don't have that kind of recall, how can you possibly distinguish between seeing in perfect clarity, and merely thinking you saw in perfect clarity?

From the fact that you can't recall a dream as clear as what you did yesterday you conclude that its because the dream experience is not as "real". So, its easier to think you just "imagined" all that perceptual clarity while you were dreaming.

But the argument doesnt work. Whats the difference of "thinking" you were with your family yesterday and actually recalling you were? The very nature of "the imprint"? or your concepts about the difference among them?

I think it's unlikely that your brain actually created a full, 3D, picture-perfect reality in your head, with realistic reflection and refraction effects and stuff that computer graphics experts would kill for. I think the much simpler explanation is that you simply experienced the psychological effect of believing you saw everything in great detail.

Hehe, dont tell me you think a device as simple as a computer equals the brain! The "realistic" reflection and refraction you can see in the water when you wash your hands... is in the world or IN YOUR BRAIN!?! Of course, in your brain! and this should answer your question. It is the brain where the qualia of those things reside.

I'd say the same thing. Our perceptions of reality are psychological reactions to sensory input. The difference with dreams is that our perceptions of reality there are psychological reactions to other psychological reactions.

Think about this, you never perceive "reality", you only perceive electrochemical reactions on your brain. "Reality" is a construct derived from those subjective reactions, and every detail you can think about "reality" occurs within your brain.

Why on earth would not be possible for those electrochemical processes to function without external stimuli? If anything, this stimuli is the simplest link in the whole chain. The real core of "reality" experience occurs "inside" the brain, exactly where dreams are created.

 

[toddjh]

Yes. I can tell you every imaginable detail, not only what I see, but what I hear, touch, feel, the force of the gravity, every tactile texture, the exact position of my body, etc.

I tend to doubt that. Nobody has recall that good. Certainly you have the memory of thinking, "Boy, you know, this sure feels real." I have that reaction, too. That, coupled with a couple key simulated sensations, is more than enough to give the appearance of a highly-detailed world.

From the fact that you can't recall a dream as clear as what you did yesterday you conclude that its because the dream experience is not as "real".

No, from the fact that I don't have absolutely perfect recall of what I saw/felt in a dream, I conclude that it's impossible to determine whether I saw everything in perfect detail, or merely got the impression I did. I do think that the latter is more likely.

I won't say the "dream experience is not as real" -- like I said, it feels completely real to me, too. What I'm saying is that I don't think our brain actually simulates a complete stream of totally realistic sensory input, moment by moment. That's just too much work. I think it just manipulates mental symbols ("that light is bright" or "this gun I'm holding is highly reflective" or "that countertop is really cluttered"), and when you focus on one of those symbols, your brain fills in a few key details (e.g. "that countertop is really cluttered" becomes "there's some unopened mail and some groceries on that countertop").

So, its easier to think you just "imagined" all that perceptual clarity while you were dreaming.

Yes. I think you are left with the memory of believing you were experiencing perceptual clarity -- or, if you prefer, the dream triggered a mental symbol that you associate with perceptual clarity. I don't think you actually saw a completely realistic visual environment. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't even think your brain knows how to create such a highly-detailed environment. The laws of optics aren't exactly simple.

But the argument doesnt work. Whats the difference of "thinking" you were with your family yesterday and actually recalling you were?

Well, it's quite a large difference to them.

Actually, I think you're making my point for me. You seem to be admitting that the experience is not distinguishable from the mere impression of having had the experience. That's exactly what I'm saying. And I'm saying that, since it's a much easier job for your brain to give you the impression of highly-detailed vision than to give you highly-detailed vision itself, that's the more likely explanation.

Hehe, dont tell me you think a device as simple as a computer equals the brain! The "realistic" reflection and refraction you can see in the water when you wash your hands... is in the world or IN YOUR BRAIN!?! Of course, in your brain! and this should answer your question. It is the brain where the qualia of those things reside.

Yes and no. Again, you're making my point for me. Your brain does not actually know all the details of reflection and refraction. Rather, when you see a shimmering pool of water, that experience is associated with corresponding mental symbols ("oh, that water is reflective and rippled"). It is those symbols which are being activated in your dream, not a complete simulation of the surface of the water and the way light reacts to it.

Think about this, you never perceive "reality", you only perceive electrochemical reactions on your brain. "Reality" is a construct derived from those subjective reactions, and every detail you can think about "reality" occurs within your brain.

That's like saying that every detail of a television show originates within the TV set, and the signal the TV set translates into a picture is merely incidental. I don't agree. You're ignoring the huge amount of objective, real-world information flowing into your brain through the optic nerve. That information is (mostly) absent when you're dreaming.

Jeremy

 

[toddjh]

How do you control the "logical" part of your brain (thoughts?) from spoiling it?

That is indeed the hard part. All I can say is that I just try to tell myself, "okay, run with it" and try not to think too hard about it. It is tricky, and I don't know any easy answers.

Jeremy

 

[Inmania]

I can ocasionally control my dreams, and I was once drifting off and had controlled hallucinations...

 

[IllegalArgument]

I lucid dream almost every morning, I have some control over it. I'm out of practice but I use to have better control over them. Generally, I slide in out of the dream and awareness of my surrounding, like if one of my dogs is snoring again. For me, I can stay in this state for hours, usually though it's less than an hour.

It's usually not restful for me, mind is too active, so recently I have tired to terminate the dream state and go back to regular sleep or get up.

You can have a far amount of control, I read one time that it's extreme hard to read anything in dreams, so one time I tried to create a book to read. This is something I could only do in a lucid dream state. I did kinda of succeed, but it was hard, lots of concentration and repeated attempts.