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Loose Change - Part IV

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Ladies and gentlemen of the JREF family,

The Sultan of 9-11 BS requires your assistance once again.

There has been a recent development on my board.
An individual has challenged me. He cites two pieces of "evidence" which he says indicate foul play.
One, the photos of severed I-beams which were taken at Ground Zero following the collapse.
Two, he says that seismic data provides evidence that explosions occurred at the time of collapse.
And three, he says I'm a "redneck writer".

Well, I'm afraid he's got my number on the "redneck writer" part. So I suppose one out of three really aint too bad for a 9-11 Truth Movementeer, considering their batting average is usually zero.

But it's the first two I need your help with.
I've responded and told him that it's now almost universally accepted by all but the most braindead Movementeers that those beams were severed with aceytelene torches to aid in the recovery operation.
And that, contrary to his contention, the "seismic data" actually fails to indicate anything which supports the explosive demolition "theory".

But, and this is understandable, he would like to have more than just my word for that. He would like me to provide some support for what I'm telling him.
Can you please dig down into your resource bag one more time and supply me with something I might offer him as support for my contentions?

Thanks once again in advance. And I promise to not make a habit of this.

By the way, this is the thread in question...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=186631

I think you will find the thread to be entertaining reading (I do my best).
And if you're a mind to, by all means please feel free to register at IIDB and jump right in. I need all the help I can get.

Yours (as always),

Sultanist
 
Oh, I almost forgot to mention.
If you read that thread all the way through, you will see that one of the Movementeers is saying that I should not rely on anyone else for any information
with which to make judgements about the "conspiracy theory". That I should
be willing to do all the research myself or keep my mouth shut.
That individual is actually doing his own experiments as we speak, at home, to prove that the WTC collapse did not occur as NIST concluded (I kid you not).
And once he's completed these very elaborate experiments, he's promised to
report back to that thread and reveal his results.
Should be interesting (in a bizarre sorta way).
 
In regard to Willie's testimony...

It is worth nothing that the specific injuries he describes - that being burns in which the skin is hanging off the body - are very specific to fuel fireballs.

An actual explosion from explosives is a concussive blast - anyone actually close enough to the fireball to be burned would be ripped apart by the over pressure.

Fuel fireballs, however, expand relatively slowly, and produce less over pressure than high explosives (this is not to be confused with fuel air explosives which also produce high over pressure). In addition the rapid heat produces a unique type of burn called a "flash burn". Essentially it burns top layers of flesh very rapidly, however it does not penetrate to damage tissue. As a result the outer layers of skin look very badly burnt and sheet off in large chunks, often hanging off the body, however the level of tissue damage is usually not very severe (suffering similar area of burns from regular fire would almost certainly kill you).

The key thing to note is virtually every single account of "explosions" (I mean actual witness testimony of a fireball, not just sound) in the WTC has three things in common:

1) Witnessed in the vicinity of the elevator shafts
2) Smell of kerosene
3) Victims with burnt skin hanging off bodies

All three of these are entirely consistant with the officially presented argument that jet fuel spilled down the elevator shafts and ignited. None of these three facts is consistant with CT claims of controlled demolition.

It's really quite an open and shut case.

-Gumboot
 
Sultanist said:
Ladies and gentlemen of the JREF family,

The Sultan of 9-11 BS requires your assistance once again.

There has been a recent development on my board.
An individual has challenged me. He cites two pieces of "evidence" which he says indicate foul play.
One, the photos of severed I-beams which were taken at Ground Zero following the collapse.
Two, he says that seismic data provides evidence that explosions occurred at the time of collapse.
And three, he says I'm a "redneck writer".

Well, I'm afraid he's got my number on the "redneck writer" part. So I suppose one out of three really aint too bad for a 9-11 Truth Movementeer, considering their batting average is usually zero.

But it's the first two I need your help with.
I've responded and told him that it's now almost universally accepted by all but the most braindead Movementeers that those beams were severed with aceytelene torches to aid in the recovery operation.
And that, contrary to his contention, the "seismic data" actually fails to indicate anything which supports the explosive demolition "theory".

But, and this is understandable, he would like to have more than just my word for that. He would like me to provide some support for what I'm telling him.
Can you please dig down into your resource bag one more time and supply me with something I might offer him as support for my contentions?

Thanks once again in advance. And I promise to not make a habit of this.

By the way, this is the thread in question...
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=186631

I think you will find the thread to be entertaining reading (I do my best).
And if you're a mind to, by all means please feel free to register at IIDB and jump right in. I need all the help I can get.

Yours (as always),

Sultanist
Click to expand...

http://www.911myths.com/html/seismic_record.html
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm#_Toc144446005
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=5&c=y
 
Arkan_Wolfshade said:
http://www.911myths.com/html/seismic_record.html
http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm#_Toc144446005
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=5&c=y
Click to expand...

Much obliged, Arkan. Hopefully these links will have the desired effect...
pcguru.gif
 
I'll add my thanks as well. Very good, useful information about Rodriguez and I will pursue the links later today. But one part still remains open: did he testify before the 9/11 commission? Did the burned guy do so? Or did both just give their testimony to staff investigators?

Again, my thanks.
 
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SezMe said:
I'll add my thanks as well. Very good, useful information about Rodriguez and I will pursue the links later today. But one part still remains open: did he testify before the 9/11 commission? Did the burned buy do so? Or did both just give their testimony to staff investigators?

Again, my thanks.
Click to expand...



I would imagine, given the focus of the commission, that they did not interview witnesses of the attacks of that nature. They weren't investigating 9/11, they were investigating the conduct and potential security failure of government leading up to 9/11. It was a "how was this able to happen?" investigation, not a "what happened?" investigation.

-Gumboot
 
Abbyas said:
Yep. He's also a real estate agent.
Click to expand...

Folks, just to clear up some confusion here. There is a Tom Foti who is a well-respected real estate agent and it is NOT the same Tom Foti who is the musician. If you could, please try to distinguish between the two by saying "Tom Foti the musician" when you're referring to the singer.

This thread has caused the non-musician Tom Foti a great deal of concern, and there's no reason to associate him with 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Jeff Wagg
 
Jeff Wagg said:
Folks, just to clear up some confusion here. There is a Tom Foti who is a well-respected real estate agent and it is NOT the same Tom Foti who is the musician. If you could, please try to distinguish between the two by saying "Tom Foti the musician" when you're referring to the singer.

This thread has caused the non-musician Tom Foti a great deal of concern, and there's no reason to associate him with 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Jeff Wagg
Click to expand...
Tom Foti the musician/conspiracy nut also claims to be a real estate agent, as Abby says. Perhaps we should just refer to him as "Baaaaybe Tom Foti," after one of his pet expressions.

ETA: I will clarify this issue with the conspiracy Tom. If he's not in real estate, I'll let everyone know.

Note: this Tom is NOT the conspiracy Tom: http://www.tomfoti-re.com/ He looks like a good guy to have a beer with. The conspiracy Tom is the one who OWES me a six-pack of beer.
 
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I heard back from Baaaaaybe Tom. He is also in real estate. I look forward to the mortgage-antimortgage collision when those two meet.
 
Does anybody still frequent the Loose Change Forums? I've been there since they were overhauled and have been on my best behaviour - no name calling, no trolling, staying in my "Skeptics Area" cage for the most part.

For some reason I can't get back on the boards this afternoon. I haven't done anything against the forum rules. The only thing I've done is to ask people to supply proof of the claims they make and sources for the quotes they supply.

If anyone still lurks over there, can you see if "A Very Sly Denial" is banned?

Thanks.

(sorry for the derail)
 
VespaGuy said:
Does anybody still frequent the Loose Change Forums? I've been there since they were overhauled and have been on my best behaviour - no name calling, no trolling, staying in my "Skeptics Area" cage for the most part.

For some reason I can't get back on the boards this afternoon. I haven't done anything against the forum rules. The only thing I've done is to ask people to supply proof of the claims they make and sources for the quotes they supply.

If anyone still lurks over there, can you see if "A Very Sly Denial" is banned?

Thanks.

(sorry for the derail)
Click to expand...
I think it's down atm.
 
Thanks Arkan. I wouldn't normally assume "bannination" so quickly if I hadn't seen it done so often over there.
 
Just got back from Hawaii today. I notice they blocked the board, from public view. Is Merc( aka That onedood, and S4S here) in the process of taking the second one down, by starting all the infighting, again? Just as well, less time spent by me, laughing at them.

Gotta hand it to Merc and Lyte, they have done more damage to the LC Twoofers than we could ever hope to. Good Job!

DT
 
I had an opportunity to debate a CTer on a local station today for about a half hour. He subscribes to the CD theory for all three WTC buildings that fell. When I mentioned the substantial damage to WTC7, he said he had never heard of that and did not believe me. So, after the show, I did some web searching but could not come up with any good photo of damage to WTC7, the big problem being the smoke obscuring the building itself. Do you know of a link to a good photo?
 
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