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Loose Change - Part IV

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Not sure where this low speed claim keeps popping up but it doesn't appear to be true.
I don't know where it comes from, but I'm guilty of perpetuating it. I assumed that the calculation was made based on a plane traveling at approach speed. I've seen Leslie Robertson talk about the 707 issue, but never that a 600 mph strike was calculated.
 
im not sure either, if you watch the NOVA special Why The Towers Fell the head designer for the towers talks about how it was designed to withstand a 707 at full speed


This has to be one of the most misleading CT claims...

According to the actual NIST report:

An additional load, stated by The Port Authority to have been considered in the design of the towers, was the impact of a Boeing 707, the largest commercial airliner when the towers were designed, hitting the building at its full speed of 600 mph.

However, buildings were not (and still are not) required by the building codes or designed to withstand the impact of a fuel-laden jetliner. Although the impact of a Boeing 707 was stated by the Port Authority to have been considered in the original design of the towers, only one three-page document, in a format typically used for talking points was found that addressed the issue. This document stated that such a collision would result in only local damage and could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building. NIST was unable to locate any evidence to indicate consideration of the extent of impact induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet fuel.

A Port Authority document indicated that the impact of a Boeing 707 aircraft flying at 600 mph was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, the investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and were thus unable to verify the assertion that “…such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.” Since the ability for rigorous simulation of the aircraft impact and of the ensuing fires are recent developments and since the approach to structural modeling was developed for this Investigation, the technical capability available to The Port Authority and its consultants and contractors to perform such an analysis in the 1960s would have been quite limited.

Funnily enough I have actually read quotes by people claiming that they ran a computer simulation in the design stage to determine the building's survivability in the event of a 707 impact.

A computer simulation of an aircraft collision? In the 1960's? Sure.

The above sections of the NIST report indicate to me that the assertations about survival of a 707 impact are a hypothesis at best, and at worst a PR-motivated guess.

-Andrew
 
If anyone knows of people who might be wlling to hand out pamphlets at Ground Zero on Saturday afternoons, let me know. We can definitely use the help, and it's a fascinating experience.
im with you in spirit since my body is in chicago, lol

Funnily enough I have actually read quotes by people claiming that they ran a computer simulation in the design stage to determine the building's survivability in the event of a 707 impact.

A computer simulation of an aircraft collision? In the 1960's? Sure.
yeah, thats pretty much the reason they couldnt model the fuel fire

BTW has anyone noticed a shift in the 707 argument? lately ive been seeing more and more truthers stating they were designed to withstand MULTIPLE hits from 707s
 
This has to be one of the most misleading CT claims...

According to the actual NIST report:
Funnily enough I have actually read quotes by people claiming that they ran a computer simulation in the design stage to determine the building's survivability in the event of a 707 impact.

A computer simulation of an aircraft collision? In the 1960's? Sure.

The above sections of the NIST report indicate to me that the assertations about survival of a 707 impact are a hypothesis at best, and at worst a PR-motivated guess.

-Andrew
In the Ric Burns documentary "New York," Les Robertson says that they did design the towers to withstand the physical impact of one 707, but that they did not make any calculations about the effects of the jet fuel.
 
BTW has anyone noticed a shift in the 707 argument? lately ive been seeing more and more truthers stating they were designed to withstand MULTIPLE hits from 707s
That idea comes from a quote by the WTC Construction and Project Manager, Frank A. DeMartini, who died in the attacks:

"The building was designed to have a fully loaded Boeing 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of airliners, because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door, this intense grid, and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It realy does nothing to the screen netting."

He was obviously proud of the strength of the buildings, but he was wrong about the damage one airliner would do, much less several.
 
the sub-report also states:
In March 1964, a calculation was made by the Port Authority to determine the period of vibration of the tower due an aircraft impact at the 80th floor. Although no conclusion was stated on the calculation sheet, it clearly indicates that the Port Authority recognized during the design stage the possibility of an aircraft impact on the tower.

The calculations from that report are not included in the supporting material appendix.

I doubt the original 3 letter document on the initial analysis was faked for PR reasons. The structural engineers that worked on it would have to buy into it and I just don't see that happening. The reports usefulness is limited without the calculations to analyze how well done the analysis was.

I do think the towers remaining standing after the initial impact shows that the buildings were designed to take that sort of impact. If they knew it or not, doesn't matter. They did stand up. The actual NIST studies show it would've remained standing if not for the blown off fire protection and the fires.
 
If anyone knows of people who might be wlling to hand out pamphlets at Ground Zero on Saturday afternoons, let me know. We can definitely use the help, and it's a fascinating experience.

Wow, if I'm ever in New York, I'd love to join you! (...But don't hold your breath:D )
 
Truther Tom Foti had an ingenious plan: wherever I went, he would stand in front of me.

Reminds me of the write-ups of the Scientology protests where they'd send out people with 'pro-scientology' signs. They would then scamper about trying desperately to get their sign in front of the protester's signs. I saw the vids, they looked really stupid then.
 
I remember reading an article where they said Les Robertson never actually designed the towers for such a hit, but rather, when it was borught up after the fact, he took his design, as it already was, and calculated that it could withstand such an impact...ie, it wasn't written into the design to withstand a 707 hit, but calculated that it could after the fact.
 
In the Ric Burns documentary "New York," Les Robertson says that they did design the towers to withstand the physical impact of one 707, but that they did not make any calculations about the effects of the jet fuel.


Another thing to bear in mind, of course, is building occupancy.

Between 1970 and 2000 average occupancy in city office buildings across the western world have tripled as more people are squeezed into tighter spaces.

Now, consider what else has changed.

Every one of those 3x as many people means 3x as many desks, 3x as many chairs, 3x as many pen holders...etc... think how much of that stuff these days is synthetic, made of hydrocarbon based materials. Compare that to 1970.

Another major thing of course, everyone now has a PC, and all the additional furniture that comes along with that.

Heat output, by floor area, has multiplied by 6 times since 1970 - where before a given space would have one person releasing body heat, now you have three people in the same given space, each with a PC (the average PC has roughly the same heat output as a single person).

That means more air conditioning units.

As you can see, failing to factor in the affect of fuel on the aircraft is only one error, and that one error alone has many ramifications. I recall one of those involved in the building describing the impact of a 707 as like a pen pushed through a mosquito net. This implies they didn't think the wings would penetrate the building.

It may just be the extra mass provided by the jet fuel, but to me such an assertation seems ludicrous (as materially demonstrated on 9/11) and supports how limited any real analysis of such an impact was.

Another error in the "calculated impact" of a 707 is, as I mentioned above, the massive difference in available fuels in the building itself from 1970 to 2000.

A modern office building is a veritible fuel tank of hydrocarbon based materials. Everything is plastic or nylon.

Another error is in fire proofing. At the time WTC was built there was NO guideline for how much fire proofing to put on steel.

NIST concludes that ultimately the fires in the building weakened the steel, causing collapse.

The CT 707 claim argues this wouldn't happen. Yet lack of minimum standards for fire proofing in 1970 indicates, to me, that no one had even seriously looked at the threat of steel weakening from fire.

As the Kader Industrial toy factory fire (May 10, 1993) shows, unprotected steel structural buildings will suffer total collapse. In the example of Kader a small localised fire was discovered at 4pm in Building One (4 floors). It was not until 4.20pm that the fire was considered a significant enough threat to call the fire brigade. When they arrived at 4.40pm:

Arriving fire-fighters found Building One heavily involved in flames and already beginning to collapse, with people jumping from the third and fourth floors.

Sound familiar? :rolleyes:

The building suffered total collapse at about 5.15pm.

The fire then spread to Building Two (4 floors) which suffered total collapse at about 5.30pm (15 minutes later), and Building Three (4 floors) which in turn totally collapsed at 6.05pm (35 minutes after Bldg 2).

The later investigation found that none of the steel in the structures was insulated against fire. Thus we can see just how important insulation is in a fire scenario.

It would be likely that those sections of steel in the WTC that were stripped of insulation in the impact were experiencing total structural failure within 20 minutes.

-Andrew
 
Hahaha oh wow. In the 'Hi, Im a pilot" thread, johndoeX kept saying that a pilot could fight off an attacker with the crashaxe located in the cockpit, meaning that the 9/11 story is a lie. Tranquillado asked johndoeX several times where the location of the crashaxe is and johndoeX avoided the question each time. Finally, a member named 767doctor responds with "the crashaxe is 6 feet behind the pilot. A hijacker would have a better chance of using it than a strapped in pilot".

JohndoeX then edits his post with "Cockpit equipment location is need to know basis only. Please do not violate FAR's on this site or they will be reported."

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9814&st=60
 
It's amusing and revealing that these guys get covered mostly on conservative outlets--Fox News instead of CNN, Laura Ingraham and not Al Franken, etc. I think sane liberals are all petrified that this will catch on with their base and just discredit them, while of course the conservative outlets are hoping for just that result.
Which is a pity, because this stuff shouldn't break along partisan lines. It sure doesn't here, I've never seen a topic here at the JREF that unites us all across the spectrum like this topic does. Yay JREF!
 
Hahaha oh wow. In the 'Hi, Im a pilot" thread, johndoeX kept saying that a pilot could fight off an attacker with the crashaxe located in the cockpit, meaning that the 9/11 story is a lie. Tranquillado asked johndoeX several times where the location of the crashaxe is and johndoeX avoided the question each time. Finally, a member named 767doctor responds with "the crashaxe is 6 feet behind the pilot. A hijacker would have a better chance of using it than a strapped in pilot".

JohndoeX then edits his post with "Cockpit equipment location is need to know basis only. Please do not violate FAR's on this site or they will be reported."

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=9814&st=60

Hehe, 767doctor here :)
As you might suspect, I've been perma-banned for that little stunt.
 
south suburbs actually, but close enough :)

im guessing your on the south side as well, based on your apparent baseball preferences ;)

and naturally im always up for a beer, lol
 
south suburbs actually, but close enough :)

im guessing your on the south side as well, based on your apparent baseball preferences ;)

and naturally im always up for a beer, lol
Born in Mt. Greenwood, grew up (age 7+) in the southwest suburbs, thus my baseball preference. Now living in Albany Park in the northwest side of Chicago. If you're ever in the city let me know, first round is on me!
 
Ma-ma-ma-myyyy Remora! Note the "7 Hijackers Still Alive" poster.
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehost/879044d68c1b473f6.jpg[/qimg][/CENTER]

edit: photo

Hah! Is that you with the Fair Play for Al Qaeda Committee bit? That's terrific! I'll see if I can get over to NYC during Christmas week.
 
Suspended for 3 days for telling johndoe he should not be complaining about being suppressed.
 
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