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Loose Change - Part IV

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Firehouse Magazine
FDNY 9/11 Tapes Revisited: New Questions
Port Authority Analysis Contradicts City Report

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You have been greeted and directly addressed. No harm if you choose to ignore this. However, if you are going to be a mass-quoter or a link-citer, you simply won't get far. That's not how debate works.

How 'bout returning to one single point you've asserted and stick to that for awhile?
 
So that's it? The conspiracy consists of fire officials in New York who didn't properly investigate the system failures in the radio systems they had been using in 2001? Boy, that's front-page stuff.

And that the OSS in its early days recruited some former Nazi officers?
 
Also, are you aware that another 1,600 FDNY 9/11 calls were released today?

What are they good for?
If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?

Boy, that's front-page stuff.
For some reason I believe some of you may think I was trying to impress or convince you of something different than you already believed.

For the most part I have just been questioning myself.

SOME ?
 
Perhaps you can explain what the conspiracy is that you're obliquely referring to.
 
What are they good for?
It was you who just made a long post about communications in the WTC. I thought you'd be interested to know that many more of those communications were just released. If you're not interested in them from a research standpoint, perhaps you can benefit from a human interest standpoint.

If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?
If that "knowledge" is based on the information currently being spread by the "truth movement," "we the people" will need to do a lot of work to educate those people about the facts.

For some reason I believe some of you may think I was trying to impress or convince you of something different than you already believed.

For the most part I have just been questioning myself.

SOME ?
This is a forum where logic, evidence, and clear, critical thinking are expected. Random thoughts or questions aren't terribly productive unless accompanied by explanations of why you think they're worthy of consideration.

Have you had a chance to look at some of those flight 93 links?
 
Flight 93 = Little or NO evidence remains after everything including the passenger's TEETH "vaporized" at the scene.

Please look at the this photo. It's of a plane crash in Indiana on October 31, 1994. Please point out where the bodies are. For that matter, point out where are the seats, the luggage the engines........
The word "obliterated" comes to mind.



I just can't believe that the top portion of the towers that came crumbling down could turn three or four sub-level floors into DUST and blow all of that material out of the ground.

Just because you can't believe something doesn't mean it ain't so. If the top portion had no trouble collapsing 70+ floors of the tower, why in the world would it have any trouble collapsing four sub-floors?

Steve S.
 
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What are they good for?
The phone transcripts are a reminder of the human element of the tragedy. Something that can be forgotten, especially when CTers routinely speak of "the government," as if it were a thing, a machine.

If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?
That kind of a percentage would only serve to further show how "you can fool some of the people some of the time."

Friend, there are only two ways anyone can "come to a conclusion" about something: they are presented with factual, verifiable evidence, or misled with lies and innuendo. Which would you like to provide?
 
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Same old bull. I don't remember if they said this in the last version, but I just noticed Dylan said, "The presidents brother, Marvin Bush, was board of directors for Securacom."

Wow, he was the entire board of directors, that is impressive.

And the $167 billion in gold is down to less than $1 billion. The Loose Change boys stole $166 billion in gold!!
 
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On Sept. 11, it did not seem to be working well to Battalion Chiefs Joseph Pfeifer and Orio Palmer, two of the first chiefs to respond. They tested their radios but could not hear each other, an effort that was recorded by the repeater tape.

In the time that I've been digging into this stuff, this issue and the air quality issues post 9-11 are the only ones that I haven't seen turn into mush once you investigate them. But of course the coverup here is similar to the one exposed in the current Vanity Fair--of ordinary mistakes and confusion, not some vast plot by the government to goad us into war.

Regarding the CIA/OSS, yes, we recruited a lot of former Nazis, because the assumption in the minds of many was that we might be back in war with our former allies the Soviets in a short period of time, and guess who had the best intelligence and contacts on Mr Stalin and his friends. We also grabbed up the best scientists--Werner von Braun for example. Everybody knew he had designed the V2 rockets which so terrorized Britain during the war.
 
Welcome to the forum, Smother.

Do you have a reference for that 100,000 sold claim? I'd be shocked if that were true, considering that it's available for free.

Yes. I actually do. It was on german TV channel ZDF. However, I'm not able to post links here.

www zdf de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/30/0,4070,3968318-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Put dots between www and zdf and zdf and de.

If you like I can give you a brief translation (I have a little knowledge of german)
 
What are they good for?

Uh, you know, firsthand evidence from people on the scene? The stuff you found compelling when it came to how they could knock down the fire with two lines?

If there comes a time in this country where 50 or even 75% of the people in this nation comes to the conclusion that this administration had prior knowledge of the attacks... what are "we the people" going to do?

What does a poll have to do with it? 38% of the people believe that the government is hiding the existence of intelligent beings from another planet. If you can convince the right people--like maybe a congressman or 218, then you can do something. If you really think that a mob in the streets is going to rise up and grab George Bush from the White House and tear him to pieces then you are sadly mistaken; they will be shot coming over the fence and I would applaud the Secret Service for doing it. We have three methods (short of natural death/incapacitation) of getting rid of a president that are legitimate: Impeachment, General Election, and Term Limits.

For some reason I believe some of you may think I was trying to impress or convince you of something different than you already believed.

For the most part I have just been questioning myself.

I have a hard time reconciling the last two paragraphs with the one above. Let's play a little game here. Suppose--just suppose--that you're really on the fence. Then what would you suggest "We the people" do if a poll came out showing 50% thought Bush did it? I'd hope you'd be suggesting that we not do anything hasty, because after all, you've just been questioning yourself?
 
Yes. I actually do. It was on german TV channel ZDF. However, I'm not able to post links here.

www zdf de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/30/0,4070,3968318-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Put dots between www and zdf and zdf and de.

If you like I can give you a brief translation (I have a little knowledge of german)

As I've said before, they may have sold licenses, 50-pack spindles, etc. And I suspect they're still inflating it quite a bit when they talk about it. Charles Goyette (antiwar, libertarian talk show host) was interviewing Jason Bermas the other day and Goyette claimed that 100 million people had seen it, which is of course nutty.

But you know how it is--buzz breeds buzz breeds sales.
 
Yes. I actually do. It was on german TV channel ZDF. However, I'm not able to post links here.

www zdf de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/30/0,4070,3968318-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Put dots between www and zdf and zdf and de.

If you like I can give you a brief translation (I have a little knowledge of german)
Thanks. I don't believe that figure at all. I'd be very surprised if they've sold a tenth of that amount, even considering their offer of $3 "bare" copies for bulk sales .
 
As I've said before, they may have sold licenses, 50-pack spindles, etc. And I suspect they're still inflating it quite a bit when they talk about it. Charles Goyette (antiwar, libertarian talk show host) was interviewing Jason Bermas the other day and Goyette claimed that 100 million people had seen it, which is of course nutty.

But you know how it is--buzz breeds buzz breeds sales.
Yeah, and Avery believes that "pretty much everyone" in the entertainment industry has seen it.
 
One of the most obscure moments in Loose Change is when they try to compare the Pentagon damages with the damages done by a Tomahawk cruise missile to the house of Milosevic. And then Dylan narrates: "See any similarities?"

My answer: No. None at all. The house of Milosevic hasn't a single burn mark on it - only an entrance hole.

Later the incoherence reaches new levels (this is a direct quote from the movie - there are no pauses in the quote). It is about the reason for the WTC 7 collapse

Official explanation: falling debris from the twin towers created an internal fire that ignited several fuel tanks inside the building. If this is true then it would be the third steel framed building in history to collapse from a fire. The first two would be the twin towers
Huh? He just said that "falling debris from the twin towers" hit WTC7. So it did not collapse from a fire. It collapsed from a fire AND falling debris. Furthermore, it is an outright LIE that no steel framed building prior to WTC collapsed from a fire. I cannot believe the nerve of those kids.

EDIT: due to bad spelling and grammar (sorry guys - English is not my first language, so expect more of this in the future)
 
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In regards to the FDNY radio transmissions...

This is something I've looked into a fair bit. IIRC, when Chief Pfeifer arrived at the North Tower (he witnessed AA11 hitting the tower and called in the first three alarms) the repeater system appeared not to work. From memory, it was concluded later that it had simply been overloaded by the mass of traffic.

In any event, Pfeifer made the split-second sort of decision that people have to make in these sorts of situations. They chose to go with the hand-held walkie talkies.

At that moment they didn't know the building would collapse around them. It would be a decision that would cost the lives of hundreds of firemen - including Pfeifer's own brother. My heart aches when I consider how he must feel (especially in the post mortum of the operation where the investigators laid the key decision at his feet).

As such many firemen in the North Tower could not be contacted. In the hour before the North Tower collapsed there were six FDNY radio communications indicating imminent building collapse. At the same time the NYPD helicopter was reporting critical information about the structure's imminent failure, but again because of communication problems, the firemen in the building would never be told.

Over three hundred firemen and police officers headed into that inferno, heedless of their own risk, determined to rescue civilians. And because of poor equipment, they never came out.

Now, Submersible, I would LOVE to hear how you think this tragedy is evidence of a government operation?

Also, for the sake of accuracy, I'd like to add that the "a fire chief" on the 78th Floor was none other than Chief Palmer. His radio report runs like so:

... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones.

"10-45 Code One" is the FDNY radio code for a fatality. This call was placed at 0952 - 49 minutes after UA175 hit the tower. Seven minutes later the tower collapsed.

It should be pointed out that the 78th floor was the Sky Lobby, and at the moment that UA175 hit the South Tower, it was full of people evacuating the building. An estimate of between 50 and 200 people were killed instantly when the left wing ripped through the floor spilling a fireball of jet fuel and turning the marble wall panels, elevator floors, and pieces of aircraft in shrapnel.

I would imagine, being a sky lobby, there wasn't much burnable office furniture on the 78th floor, so once that jet fuel was burned out, there would be nothing left to burn.

Even so, when Palmer reached the sky lobby the scene before his eyes must have resembled a slaughter house.

-Andrew
 
Great points, gumboot. I hadn't realized that the 78th was a sky lobby. Having been in that lobby, I can attest that there wan't a great amount of flammable material there. Lots of stone, glass, stainless steel, etc.
 
Well, I watched as much of the recut as I could bear (10 minutes or so), and I must say, he keeps hitting new lows when it comes to bad taste. Particularly that totally out-of-place music when people are running from the dust clouds, and the comments about the Helios crash; "...engines, bodies. Catch my drift?" I had to stop watching there for fear of hurting my computer.

And still, nothing even remotely revolutionary. I am reminded of a quote from "Prisoner of Azkaban":
"Brilliant, Snape - once again you've put your keen and penetrating mind to the task and as usual come to the wrong conclusion.
 
Great points, gumboot. I hadn't realized that the 78th was a sky lobby. Having been in that lobby, I can attest that there wan't a great amount of flammable material there. Lots of stone, glass, stainless steel, etc.

Cool. I was pretty confident one of you guys would have been to that spot and would be familiar with it.

And thanks for your kind words earlier. I owe a great deal of my knowledge to the work you and MarkyX have done in particular! It's pretty easy to soak up the facts when you guys have done all the hard yards.

-Andrew

ETA. I probably just missed it, but is there a link to the new version of LC?
 
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