Looks like Polanski will get away again.

I think that if you sign an extradition treaty with another country you should, in general, have trust in that country's legal system.

Just saying but that would mean the USA would not be able to sign an extradition treaty with the majority of the EU country which are agaisnt death penalty. Actually enarly nobody would sign extradition treaty, because of cultural and legal differences between all countries and the fact that some law make stuff forbidden in a country but not the other.

The current system is not the best, but it is betetr than utterly nothing.

To give you anotehr example: with YOUR way , germany could *ASK* and *GET* extradition of people expressing free speech (USA law) but forbidden speech on german soil, and then fleeing in the USA. Like for example denying gas chamber existence.

It is not a discussion whether such a german law is good or not, but with your method, US citizen saying in germany gas chamber did not exists, then fleeing to the USA could be extradited and condemned in germany.


Sooooo. Yeah. bad idea.
 
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Well, that's not how diplomacy works.

It can if I am appointed dictator of the world!


No. No treaty is ever binding;

I meant binding upon us. We have to abide by their decision, whether we like it or not. Unless we want to go to war over it, I suppose.

Just saying but that would mean the USA would not be able to sign an extradition treaty with the majority of the EU country which are agaisnt death penalty. Actually enarly nobody would sign extradition treaty, because of cultural and legal differences between all countries and the fact that some law make stuff forbidden in a country but not the other.

I think you cut out the part where I addressed documented exceptions.


To give you anotehr example: with YOUR way , germany could *ASK* and *GET* extradition of people expressing free speech (USA law) but forbidden speech on german soil, and then fleeing in the USA. Like for example denying gas chamber existence.

It is not a discussion whether such a german law is good or not, but with your method, US citizen saying in germany gas chamber did not exists, then fleeing to the USA could be extradited and condemned in germany.


Sooooo. Yeah. bad idea.

And yeah, I've, admittedly backpedaled on that.

ETA: That is, I understand not extraditing for stuff that isn't a crime in both countries. I still think that trust in the other countriy's legal system to determine who is or is not guilty, etc. should be implicit in any extradition treaty.
 
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Yes, I quoted that. It was alleged that DDA Gunson, the prosecutor in 1977, had testified on 26 February 2010 that Judge Rittenband had assured to parties on 19 September 1977 that that psychiatric evaluation would be all.

On 19 September 1977 there was an open court session. I - or rather ARubberChickenWithAPulley - gave a link to the transcript of that session. The transcript makes it crystal clear that the psychiatric evaluation was not ordered as a punishment, but as a means to determine punishment.

I would be surprised if the US DOJ had been so stupid not to put that transcript in the paperwork of the extradition request.

Certainly, the Swiss court system also has such psychiatric evaluations that advise the judge in sentencing. I'm not acquainted with Swiss legal matters, but I can imagine that legal matters proceed differently. For instance, in Holland such psychiatric evaluations are typically performed during pre-trial custody. Holland also makes no difference between the guilty/non-guilty verdict and sentencing, that's one - whereas in the US, those are two stages.

One scenario I could envisage that makes the request for Gunson's testimony relevant is the following. Before the 19 September court session, Rittenband calls DA Gunson and lawyer Dalton into chambers. He says to them: "guys, I'm not content with only probation. I'm gonna order a psychiatric evaluation. But rest assured, after that it will be over. Now let's go into the courtroom, and put on your show as if you had heard nothing here."

From the accounts we've read about Judge Rittenband's behaviour, that could be the case.

However, the press communiqué as released by the Swiss authorities does not give details as to when Rittenband allegedly gave these assurances.

Do you have a link to the official verdict on the extradition by the Swiss authorities?

I didnt find a link to Official documents, would have to request them.
 
@ddt if I read correctly, all I can say is : what a *MESS*. That does not look like the well oiled justice you see in US series :P.

Yes and no. What happened in open court is clear enough, and seems perfectly fine. I'm relying there on current DDA Walgren's explanation of the California Penal Code, I don't presume he perjured himself in his affidavit.

The scenario I pictured of Judge Rittenband directing parties how to behave is the only way I can see that the Swiss request for the sealed testimony makes sense for the reason stated. What happened in open court that day, 19 September 1977, was perfectly fine.

Has nobody yet made snarky remarks about a judge making an acting effort out of a case against a director? :D

Various parties involved have stated that Judge Rittenband acted out of line, and at some point, Polanski's lawyer and/or Gunson contemplated having the judge recused. Actually, he recused himself shortly after the (failed) sentencing date.

Polanski's lawyers have filed various suits recently in LA Court: in July 2009 requesting the whole lawsuit be thrown out for judicial impropriety, in January 2010 asking for a sentence in absentia, and subsequently asking for the testimony of former DDA Gunson. Judge Espinoza, who ruled on the sentence in absentia request, noted in his verdict too that irregularities had taken place.

The testimony of ex-DDA Gunson is the sealed testimony. It is so-called "conditional testimony", taken for the case that the witness is not available (e.g., dead) at the future date the testimony will be needed - i.e., when/if Polanski would be available in LA for sentencing, or for a new case in which he'll argue the misconduct.

Now, if someone happens to have transcripts of those cases, that could shed light on the contents of Gunson's testimony.

Or if someone has the official Swiss decision, that could also shed light on what the Swiss expect of this testimony.
 
If that's free of charge, yes pretty please?

i have contacted them, i am not sure if such documents are freely available.

ETA: btw, it looks as if everyone can request official documents.

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/de/home/dokumentation/einsichtnahme_in_amtliche.html

Contact Folco Galli here:

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/de/mi.../home/dokumentation/einsichtnahme_in_amtliche

im sure you can also write in English

(Von = from, give e-mail address / Adresse = post address / Wohnort = Zip, City , Country / Betreff = subject / Inhalt = your request)
 
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The scenario I pictured of Judge Rittenband directing parties how to behave is the only way I can see that the Swiss request for the sealed testimony makes sense for the reason stated. What happened in open court that day, 19 September 1977, was perfectly fine.

Actually, I can think of another reason, but then it's a bit poorly stated in the Swiss press communiqué.

That has to do with the length of the sentence, as DrKitten previously pointed out. The US-Switzerland extradition treaty specifies in article 1 par. 1:
An offense shall be an extraditable offense only if it is punishable under the laws of both Contracting Parties by deprivation of liberty for a period exceeding one year. When the request for extradition relates to a person who has been convicted, extradition shall be granted only if the duration of the penalty or detention order, or their aggregate, still to be served amounts to at least six months.
There's a problem with both sentences. First, the maximum sentence. Judge Rittenband said on 19 September 1977 in open court:
The statutory penalty for this offense by his plea is prescribed in Section 264 of the Penal Code, to be imprisonment in the County Jail for not more than one year or incarceration in State Prison. The law also allows for other alternatives.
(transcript, p. 46)
The wording used is ambiguous as to where the one-year maximum applies to: only to County Jail or also to State Prison. AFAIK, US prison terms over one year have to be served in State Prison, whereas terms under one year can be served either in State Prison or in County Jail. And current DDA Walgren wrote in his affidavit (same link) that the maximum sentence is two years.

However, the wording in the transcript is slightly ambiguous and may have been more so in translation.

Then the other side: for extradition, the remaining sentence has to be at least six months. In Polanski's case, however, we don't know what the remaining sentence is, because he hasn't been sentenced yet. The extradition treaty gives no explicit provisions as to what then should be the criterion, so we'd have to go with what the reasonable expectation to the sentence was.

That brings us also back to the court session of 19 September 1977. The probation report that was before the court recommended only probation. Dalton, Polanski's lawyer, pled for probation. He also gave statistics on the 1976 cases (when in principle, time could be up to 50 years): 44 cases in LA County, of which none did time in State Prison (meaning their sentence didn't exceed 1 year), and of which 27% received only probation. DDA Gunson ended his plea with:
It appears that it was almost planned. If you consider the photographs, [...], based upon those facts, your Honor, the People are requesting that Mr. Polanski be placed in custody for a violation of Section 261.5, the offense that he has pled guilty to.
Judge Rittenband, finally, did a lot of pondering and grandstanding, and ended with deciding on the diagnostic evaluation (the 90 days) to guide him in sentencing, without saying anything concrete what he envisaged himself. And generally, a judge follows the advice such an evaluation yields.

The diagnostic evaluation recommended only probation, no time. After that, according to current DDA Walgren:
On 30 January 1978, Judge Rittenband met with the prosecutor and Mr. Polanski's attorney. In that meeting, the judge expressed dissatisfaction with the diagnostic report, which recommended probation, and told the attorneys that he thought Mr. Polanski's sentence should include time in custody.
(link, p. 28)
Note that again, no concrete term is indicated.

DDA Walgren himself doesn't give any indication in his affidavit either how much time in prison he'd seek for Polanski, if even Walgren would be allowed to plead again on the sentence in case Polanski would return to the US.

Finally, current Judge Espinoza ruled in January 2010 that he would not sentence Polanski in absentia.

So, all in all, there is no concrete evidence that ever a prison term of over six months was sought for Polanski. Judge Rittenband and DDA Gunson are on record being in favour of prison time, but neither named a concrete term. Rittenband is dead. So what remains would be Gunson's testimony as to what he had in mind when he pleaded on 19 September for time. And that testimony could very well be sealed by the LA County Supreme Court.
 
Fine. The country of Drkittenia has just convicted you in absentia of "terrorist acts" and sentenced you to the death penalty.

....

We present the extradition request to your country and establish to their satisfaction that the conviction was valid under our laws. In your view, your home country should arrest you and ship you to Drkittenia for what will effectively be a guaranteed execution?

If not, why not?

Ummmm... do you have "death by snoo snoo"?


:D
 
i have contacted them, i am not sure if such documents are freely available.

ETA: btw, it looks as if everyone can request official documents.

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/de/home/dokumentation/einsichtnahme_in_amtliche.html

Contact Folco Galli here:

http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/de/mi.../home/dokumentation/einsichtnahme_in_amtliche

im sure you can also write in English

(Von = from, give e-mail address / Adresse = post address / Wohnort = Zip, City , Country / Betreff = subject / Inhalt = your request)


There is indeed a version of the site in English.
http://www.ejpd.admin.ch/ejpd/en/home.html

On these pages, you will find information about the department itself and selected topics of international interest. Other topics of national importance have not been translated into English language. It is therefore possible that you cannot find the information you are looking for. In this case, please try one of the other languages available or make use of the search or index functions.

ETA
The contact form is here: http://tinyurl.com/27oryod
 
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It's interesting that you bring this up in the example. If you read the treaty under discussion here, you will note that in fact an extradition is only possible when the crime under consideration is a crime in both countries. This is pretty standard.
So, assuming the Netherlands extradition treaty is equivalent, in fact the Netherlands would not extradite for drug and prostitution crimes.
You appear to believe that an extradition treaty is entirely about the law of the requesting country. In fact, the extradition treaty is about extending the arm of the law in situations where the laws of both countries actually match.

Presumably "drug crimes" means having drugs, not plying a 13 year old with Quaaludes and Vodka.
 
Presumably "drug crimes" means having drugs, not plying a 13 year old with Quaaludes and Vodka.

Presumably you think Polanski was charged with plying a 13 year old with Quaaludes and Vodka, and hence should have been extradited to face that charge.
 
Presumably you think Polanski was charged with plying a 13 year old with Quaaludes and Vodka, and hence should have been extradited to face that charge.

He was initially charged with it on basis of the Grand Jury hearing, but the charge was dropped at the plea bargain. He could again be charged with it if he decides to drop the plea bargain.
 
Working my way through what's already been posted, it seems to me the US courts blew it, and blew it bad, not only from the original plea deal, but also in the attempt to extradite Polanski.

I'm sorry Geimer feels as though she can trivialize this; she's merely giving ammo to the sexual predators who are doing far worse than Polanski. At the same time, no matter how repulsive Polanski's crimes were, we had an obligation to provide the documentation necessary to extradite, and we had an obligation through the courts to insist that the original plea deal be honored. This bait and switch nonsense was simply to cover the judge's ass, and in the end, it's going to be used to get Polanski off.

Next case.
 
Working my way through what's already been posted, it seems to me the US courts blew it, and blew it bad, not only from the original plea deal, but also in the attempt to extradite Polanski.

And in giving him the opportunity to flee in the first place. At the very least, they should have required him to surrender his passport.
 

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