Looks like Polanski will get away again.

All we have at the moment is the Swiss statement, anything else is just speculation based on, as far as I can, see nothing.
That's not quite right.

We are missing statements from the U.S. lawyers indicating why they never sent the documentation. But we do have other things....

- We have the text of the U.S./Swiss extradition treaty. From there, we can see that the information requested by the Swiss didn't seem to be all that relevant to the documents listed in article 9 of the treaty

- We have the part of the Swiss statement about how the U.S. hadn't been pursuing Polanski, which of course has been proven false by various actions that the U.S. has taken in order to apprehend Polanski (as recently as 2007).
 
That's not quite right.

We are missing statements from the U.S. lawyers indicating why they never sent the documentation. But we do have other things....

...snip...

That's right we don't have (at least when I just now looked for any later reports) have anything from the USA side so as I said speculation that it was not as the Swiss has said is based on nothing.

- We have the text of the U.S./Swiss extradition treaty. From there, we can see that the information requested by the Swiss didn't seem to be all that relevant to the documents listed in article 9 of the treaty

...snip...

Other people may disagree with your assessment - the Swiss authorities seemed to have done...


- We have the part of the Swiss statement about how the U.S. hadn't been pursuing Polanski, which of course has been proven false by various actions that the U.S. has taken in order to apprehend Polanski (as recently as 2007).

The official statement says that:

"The reason for the decision lies in the fact that it was not possible to exclude with the necessary certainty a fault in the US extradition request, although the issue was thoroughly examined."

Whilst it goes on to say other factors and considerations were made that is the reason given why the extradition failed.
 
We have the text of the U.S./Swiss extradition treaty. From there, we can see that the information requested by the Swiss didn't seem to be all that relevant to the documents listed in article 9 of the treaty
Other people may disagree with your assessment - the Swiss authorities seemed to have done...
Yes, I'm sure the Swiss disagree.

But if the Swiss were asking for information/documentation that had no relevance (according to the interpretation of the treaty) then its not that of an unreasonable assumption to assume the Swiss made the mistake. (And the other mistakes that the Swiss made over the issue support that.)

I'm not a lawyer, but I do think that usually I try to think rationally. And like I said, my reading of the treaty document does not indicate the relevance at all of the supposed information they were seeking.
 
Yes, I'm sure the Swiss disagree.

But if the Swiss were asking for information/documentation that had no relevance (according to the interpretation of the treaty) then its not that of an unreasonable assumption to assume the Swiss made the mistake. (And the other mistakes that the Swiss made over the issue support that.)

I'm not a lawyer, but I do think that usually I try to think rationally. And like I said, my reading of the treaty document does not indicate the relevance at all of the supposed information they were seeking.

"if" - why would they be asking for something they didn't think was relevant?

Now don't get me wrong I don't have any trust in any government and of course the Swiss may have screwed up but I try to follow the evidence and the evidence, at least so far, is that the extradition failed because the USA would not provide some evidence that the Swiss authorities required.

My speculations on this matter lie in the direction of why didn't the USA provide the Swiss with the information they requested, that seems a rather strange position to take if the USA wanted the extradition to go through.

Of course it could all just be another example of multiple governments being incompetent. :)
 
At this point we don't know enough to determine who was at fault. Right now, there are 3 possibilities:

- The U.S. falsely withheld documentation. This seems to be the position that many of the "free polanski" group has taken (and, as I stated above, I have problems with that since the documentation asked for doesn't seem to be relevant to what the Swiss courts should deal with)

- The Swiss didn't actually ask for the documentation (as the article I stated above suggests might have happened)

- The U.S. withheld the documentation, but it was justified in doing so

Let's try to piece the facts together.

Polanski entered into a plea bargain on August 8, 1977. This plea bargain was entered with the DA, Roger Gunson, and with consent of the victim of Polanski's statutory rape. At that meeting, it was made clear that the judge, Laurence Rittenband, was not bound by this plea bargain, but initially, the judge was of mind to honour it.

According to the plea bargain, Polanski would go into 90-days psychiatric unit detention. He got a stay to delay this due to filming obligations in Europe. He returned from Europe, reported for the psych unit detention, and was released of this after 42 days by the psychiaters.

Some time later Rittenband changed his mind, precipitated by seeing newspaper photos of Polanski at the Munich Oktoberfest in the company of (young?) girls. In a 2008 documentary, another DA, Webb, was on film saying he gave the newspaper photos to Rittenband, advising him how to change the sentence; later Webb stated that was a lie. Polanski fled the US on February 1, 1978.

Cue to the present.

Polanski was arrested September 2009 in Switzerland and has been jailed/under house arrest since, pending the extradition request.

Before that, in July 2009, Polanski filed in LA court a case to dismiss the case against him, partially on grounds of Webb's statements in the documentary. This request was denied December 21, 2009, by judge Espinoza.

Thereupon he requested the court to be tried in absentia, on January 6, 2010. (wiki). Wiki says the hearing for this case took place January 25; the NY Daily News article, however, is dated January 22 and implies the hearing was January 15. The hearing was presided by the same judge Espinosa. He denied the treatment in absentia. DA Walgren, who argued against it, has apparently never heard of "innocent until proven guilty":
Espinoza, however, interrupted Walgren as he began to denounce the director as "this criminal, this fugitive, this child rapist."
More interesting is, however, what Polanski's lawyers argued and what judge Espinoza said:
His attorneys said the judge's promise is binding and Polanski has served his full sentence. They have asked Espinoza for a full hearing with witnesses about allegations of judicial and prosecutorial misconduct.

Espinoza added another twist in his remarks from the bench by saying he believes Rittenband originally intended to sentence Polanski to a maximum 90-day period of incarceration for the diagnostic study but never officially imposed the penalty in court.

Then let's now turn to the Swiss press release:
In the framework of the extradition proceedings, on 3rd March 2010, the Federal Office of Justice (FOJ) asked the USA authorities to substantiate the extradition request by supplying the records of a hearing carried out on 26th January 2010 by the public prosecutor, Roger Gunson, who was in charge of the case in the seventies. The records should prove that, in a meeting held on 19th September 1977, the judge in charge at the time had expressly assured the representatives of the parties that the 42 days of detention spent by Roman Polanski in the psychiatric unit of a Californian prison represented the whole term of imprisonment he was condemned to. If this were the case, Roman Polanski would actually have already served his sentence and therefore both the proceedings on which the US extradition request is founded and the request itself would have no foundation.

The request of the FOJ to supply the records was rejected by the US Justice Department on 13th May 2010 due to a court ruling, according to which the records had to be kept secret. In these circumstances it is not possible to exclude with the necessary certainty that Roman Polanski has already served the sentence he was condemned to at the time and that the extradition request is undermined by a serious fault. Considering the persisting doubts concerning the presentation of the facts of the case, the request has to be rejected.

Apparently there has been a hearing on January 26, where the DA from 1977, Roger Gunson, has given testimony about a meeting in September 1977 - a month after the plea bargain - where judge Rittenband promised to Polanski that the psych unit detention was to be his whole punishment.

The court proceedings I cited above suggest to me that this hearing has been a result of the January 15 session. It must also be clear to anyone involved that the contents of this hearing could be material to the extradition request to Switzerland. Nevertheless, some court on someone's request decided to that the proceedings of this hearing must be kept secret.

We don't know by whose request. If Gunson's testimony is as is alleged, then certainly not Polanski's, as it would absolve him of further punishment and certainly make the extradition request fail.

If Gunson's testimony was different, it could be a brilliant ploy by Polanski's lawyers to sow doubt to the Swiss so they'd negate the extradition request. However, would then not the US Justice department file a request to overturn the secrecy on grounds of major state interest or some such?

In any case, above all I see the US Justice shooting themselves majorly in the foot by not providing these proceedings. Gunson's testimony affects, as far as we know, only himself, judge Rittenband and Polanski and his lawyers. I can hardly imagine there would be no legal grounds to overturn the secrecy in favour of other judicial proceedings, in this case, the extradition request.
 
Yes, I'm sure the Swiss disagree.

But if the Swiss were asking for information/documentation that had no relevance (according to the interpretation of the treaty) then its not that of an unreasonable assumption to assume the Swiss made the mistake. (And the other mistakes that the Swiss made over the issue support that.)

I'm not a lawyer, but I do think that usually I try to think rationally. And like I said, my reading of the treaty document does not indicate the relevance at all of the supposed information they were seeking.

They ask for recent testimony of the original DA, Gunson, who is alleged to have said in a court hearing, in effect, that Polanski already did his time with the 42-day detention in a psych unit - because the judge had promised him that that would be the only sentence.

If judge Rittenband indeed had promised that to Polanski in September 1977, then there's nothing to extradite Polanski for, as he already has done his time. It doesn't matter then that Rittenband changed his mind later. It doesn't matter then that Polanski fled the country before the formal sentencing, as Rittenband then in effect would already have pronounced sentence.

So yes, what the Swiss are asking for is highly relevant to the case. And methinks it will be relevant to every subsequent extradition request.
 
The hearing was presided by the same judge Espinosa. He denied the treatment in absentia. DA Walgren, who argued against it, has apparently never heard of "innocent until proven guilty":

Are you forgetting that Polanski was found guilty in 1977? That he is a "criminal", "child rapist", and "fugitive" is a legal fact and a matter of public record.
 
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If judge Rittenband indeed had promised that to Polanski in September 1977, then there's nothing to extradite Polanski for, as he already has done his time. It doesn't matter then that Rittenband changed his mind later.

I'm pretty sure that it does matter if the judge changes his mind prior to the formal sentencing, and that it is well within his prerogative to do so.

And if Polanski thought the sentence was unfair, he had legal recourse. It's called an appeal.
 
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Are you forgetting that Polanski was found guilty in 1977? That he is a "criminal", "child rapist", and "fugitive" is a legal fact and a matter of public record.

I'm not forgetting that. As lay people, we can call Polanski a child rapist. But a DA cannot.

The 1977 trial was never concluded. Polanski entered a plea bargain, but skipped the country before he was officially sentenced. As such, he was officially not proven guilty.

The whole point of the January 15, 2010 hearing was a request by Polanski that the 1977 trial be concluded in his absence. The DA there should have been acutely aware that that implies the trial was not yet concluded. For him, there, to call Polanski a criminal was totally out of line.

ETA: of course, the testimony of Gunson might change that opinon. But mark that Gunson's testimony postdates the above mentioned hearing.
 
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Also like Cainkane1 you are stating as fact something which is merely an allegation, that she told him "NO!". If she in fact did say that, then he raped her. However he denies that happened, and it's his word against hers.

You seem to be arguing that if the 13-year-old did not say "NO!" before sex, then it was not rape. Polanski plead guilty to unlawful sex with a minor. Once an adult does that then it is appropriate to call him a statutory rapist and therefore it is appropriate to use the word rape. Her saying "NO!" or not is irrelevant.
 
The 1977 trial was never concluded. Polanski entered a plea bargain, but skipped the country before he was officially sentenced. As such, he was officially not proven guilty.

The trial was complete when he pled guilty. The sentencing wasn't completed. If you are found guilty and then flee before sentencing, you are still a convict. You can try to withdraw your plea, or appeal after sentencing, but until you do either, your trial is over.
 
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I'm not forgetting that. As lay people, we can call Polanski a child rapist. But a DA cannot.

Is there any reason why both the forum members and the DA cannot refer to him as a "self-admitted statutory rapist."
 
You seem to be arguing that if the 13-year-old did not say "NO!" before sex, then it was not rape. Polanski plead guilty to unlawful sex with a minor. Once an adult does that then it is appropriate to call him a statutory rapist and therefore it is appropriate to use the word rape. Her saying "NO!" or not is irrelevant.

I wouldn't say completely irrelevant. It is irrelevant to whether the act was a crime, and an inexcusable victimization of the child. However, it is not morally equivalent--violating "actual consent" would make it a worse crime, and so a distinction is useful.
 
I wouldn't say completely irrelevant. It is irrelevant to whether the act was a crime, and an inexcusable victimization of the child. However, it is not morally equivalent--violating "actual consent" would make it a worse crime, and so a distinction is useful.

I will leave the discussion of whether or not it is a worse crime to another thread.
SPOILER: I think both are equally bad and see no reason to give different sentences.

I was trying to say that it is irrelevant to the very specific thing under discussion: whether or not it is appropriate to use the word rape to describe the 1977 incident.
 
ETA: uupps wasn't the interview from today.
 
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You seem to be arguing that if the 13-year-old did not say "NO!" before sex, then it was not rape.

How surprising, a straw man. Please take it away with you when you go.

Polanski plead guilty to unlawful sex with a minor. Once an adult does that then it is appropriate to call him a statutory rapist and therefore it is appropriate to use the word rape.

I don't know what the fascination is with the word "rape". Some forumites here go through the most amazing mental gymnastics to justify using the term "rape", unqualified, to describe what Polanski did, and they use it at every possible opportunity.

There is no such offence as "statutory rape" in the jurisdiction where Polanski had unlawful sex with an underage person, and in fact it's a very silly term for unlawful sex with an underage person anyway. The reason it is very silly is that every jurisdiction I'm aware of that has an unlawful sex/"statutory rape" offence on the books also has a different offence on the books for actually forcing or coercing an underage person into having sex - in other words, actually raping an underage person is a different and more serious offence. For the sake of clarity if nothing else you should stick to the correct terms for the correct offences.

What makes the Polanski case interesting as a skeptical issue is the way it's been narrated by the US right wing as a story about how Hollywood is inhabited by a morally bankrupt elite who are getting away with something. They even pitch this story as if they were the skeptics investigating a myth! Given the source it is a remarkably cheeky bit of spin, but quite a few of the "skeptics" around here ate it hook, line and sinker.
 
I'm pretty sure that it does matter if the judge changes his mind prior to the formal sentencing, and that it is well within his prerogative to do so.
IANAL - and certainly not an American one. Maybe someone with those credentials can step in to answer this question?

In any case, it seems to me quite out of line for a judge to speak about it before formal sentencing. But then, by all accounts Rittenband wasn't a solid judge but a vain publicity whore.

The trial was complete when he pled guilty. The sentencing wasn't completed. If you are found guilty and then flee before sentencing, you are still a convict.
Then what was the request to conclude the trial in absentia for? In any case, that argument makes the question "did he do his time" all the more poignant - and that's what the Swiss refusal to extradite is all about.

However, from wiki:
Because he fled prior to sentencing, all six of the original charges remain pending.
which argues against that. (five of those charges were dropped on the plea bargain).

Isn't skipping sentencing a criminal offense?
Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_to_appear.

And if Polanski thought the sentence was unfair, he had legal resourse. It's called an appeal.
Oh yes. I'm not here to defend in any way to defend Polanski, or to defend the - even by 1977 standards - low sentence he served.

But when people seem to suggest that the Swiss should just turn him over without the proper evidence, then I'm miffed.
 
Well even though he hasn't served his prison time for the violent crime he committed I'm glad he's at least not in our country.

I wish more violent criminals would exile themselves. I wonder if America would be better off banishing violent people from the land instead of keeping them in a time-out for a few years and letting them run wild again.

Is there anything wrong with a society rejecting bad people instead of housing them in a restricted area for a relatively short period of time? I mean, besides America's main export becoming criminals... Perhaps we should exile violent offenders to Singapore, they seem to know how to teach lessons that aren't soon forgotten.
 
Everybody: please refrain from using the term "rape" and use "sexual assault" instead. That way we can avoid attempts to mire the issue with semantic nitpicking.
 

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