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The board does not make me feel sick. The board has no protocol to test a spirit's presence. I am not trying to convince, reality should do that for itself.

I really did not join here to be tested via internet, although I have more than cooperated.

If I may be brutally succinct.

Here is a partial list of words for which flaccon and the JREF message board posters have different definitions:

cooperate,
test,
blinded testing,
protocol,
convince,
evidence

I am not making a judgement call on this matter - I am not saying who is right and who is wrong. I am merely stating that no real communication can take place when the parties have vastly different definitions of words.

I did not make this post for humor or mocking. I am simply stating a fact.
 
I'm afraid my daughter wants no part in watching her Grandfather perform card tricks to prove his presence is genuine. She felt as sick as I felt when it was initially suggested.
Who is talking about card tricks? There are no tricks involved. Would you be insulted if someone who could only hear your voice asked you to present evidence that you are the one you claim to be?

I am begining to wonder what constitutes as a fair and respectful protocol to test a spirits presence, rather than using part-method of a protocol that has been constructed to test potential Psychic ability.
There is nothing psychic about the ability to tell what card you can see, at least if it is face up. If somebody asked me to tell the value of a card, I would not mind, nor hesitate. The whole point here is that the spirit should be able to see it, and you should not, but as you have found out, it does not work when you yourself do not see the card, so that is a strong hint that there is no actual spirit, but only you interpreting what is actually meaningless noise.

There was a clear message in his own voice last night, on a recording dated 18th Oct 2012 "We don't want cards tricks"
The fact that you and the spirit use the same choice of words also hint that there is no spirit, but only you.

Do you actually know what pareidolia is? It is not a mental illness but a normal ability to see or hear patterns where there are no patterns. We all have the ability to recognise drawings, even though these drawings are not the real thing. But fortunately for art and culture, we do see these patterns.

But we can also see the same kind of patterns in rust stains, toasted bread, and so on, even though they are just random stains. This is normal, but it does make the patterns represent something real.

Audio pareidolia work in the same way. We can sometimes hear familiar voices or noises in something that is really just random noises. People have found that if you play recordings backwards, you might hear all sorts of messages. These messages are not real, but examples of pareidolia. It has also been mentioned to you that often we cannot clearly hear something, and then we interpret what we hear. When we know that a choir piece is called "O Fortuna", we might hear "O Fortuna", but if somebody tells us that it is called "Oh Four Tunas", this is what we hear.

The reason why you can pick up an old recording of yours, and suddenly hear another message than you did the first time, is that there really is just random noise, and you are interpreting it to make sense. In the period since you made the recording, you have forgotten how you interpreted it the first time, and now you are making a new interpretation that more suits your present circumstances.

Just like with "O Fortuna" you can tell other people what there is to hear, and they will hear what you said you heard. This is how pareidolia works, and this is why your daughter, your GP, and the other "witnesses" all heard the same thing: You told them what to hear.
 
I'm afraid my daughter wants no part in watching her Grandfather perform card tricks to prove his presence is genuine. She felt as sick as I felt when it was initially suggested.

I am begining to wonder what constitutes as a fair and respectful protocol to test a spirits presence, rather than using part-method of a protocol that has been constructed to test potential Psychic ability.
The protocol has nothing to do with card tricks or with psychic ability. It is a standard scientific protocol, which all serious investigators use to discover whether their perception of a phenomenon they are observing is being distorted by their own cognitive biases. Cards are used simply because they are convenient and most people have some lying around. The same sort of protocol is used whenever anyone wants to check whether their perceptions are being distorted by their biases. It's used by wine experts, for goodness' sake. No wine expert has ever complained about feeling sick or insulted when they demonstrate their skills in a blind tasting.

I have to tell you that I felt sick - actually, physically sick - when I read this post. The posters here are paying you a HUGE compliment by giving so much credence to your claims that they are prepared to help you find a way of demonstrating them scientifically, i.e. in a way that anyone other than your close friends and family will find convincing. We could have just dismissed your claims as pareidolia but no, we thought "there's a chance she could be right, let's help her find out for sure". We have spent hours of our own time helping you to try to find a way to do that, teasing out exactly what your claim is, coming up with protocols, adjusting those protocols to accomodate your every whim, and this is your response? To tell us that we're making you and yours feel sick, and kick us in the teeth?
 
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I am begining to wonder what constitutes as a fair and respectful protocol to test a spirits presence, rather than using part-method of a protocol that has been constructed to test potential Psychic ability.

There is nothing psychic about the protocol which has been suggested. You have said that the spirits can see through your eyes. You have also said that people who are not you can clearly hear and understand the voices of the spirits in your recordings. The protocol tests these two things and nothing more.

If the spirits cannot pass the protocol, then one or other or both of these claims of yours must be false.

There was a clear message in his own voice last night, on a recording dated 18th Oct 2012 "We don't want cards tricks"

They must not really want to get their message out, then. If they do, then this is the way.

That or solving one of the mathematical problems which you have been directed towards and have studiously ignored thus far. I'll reiterate - solve one of those and you, and your spirits, will be globally famous within 24 hours. What better way to spread the message to the entire world?

You've said that you're prepared to go back to convincing people one person at a time. According to your website, you've been doing this for 8 months. According to the list you've posted on this website, in this time you've convinced 8 people. At that rate, to convince the entire world will take you 575,000,000 years. Instead you could reach the entire world within 24 hours. Just ask the spirits to solve one of those mathematical problems and demonstrate their intelligence.

You describe the spirits as cooperative and "desperate" to get their message out. They're certainly not acting like it.
 
It doesn't even need to be cards. The spirits could identify objects.

Someone could slowly give the spirits a short list of different types of plants, or fruits (for example) without flaccon being present, then flaccon could ask them to repeat the list later.
 
It doesn't even need to be cards. The spirits could identify objects.

Someone could slowly give the spirits a short list of different types of plants, or fruits (for example) without flaccon being present, then flaccon could ask them to repeat the list later.

They would have to give flaccon the list and someone else would have to discern what they're saying, as apparently they can't see or hear anything that flaccon can't.
 
flaccon,
What do you think would be a good way to show people these spirits are real and not imagination?

Can you suggest something we could try?
 
Why not assemble 3 people who have recently had a relative die, and have flaccon supply the first and last name of the deceased, perfectly spelled? If she gets 2 of them right, the test is passed. Assuming, of course, the spirits are not offended at the thought of spelling their Earth-names.
 
Why not assemble 3 people who have recently had a relative die, and have flaccon supply the first and last name of the deceased, perfectly spelled? If she gets 2 of them right, the test is passed. Assuming, of course, the spirits are not offended at the thought of spelling their Earth-names.

You might have to exclude people with names like O'Reilly, A'court, d'Arcy...
 
It doesn't even need to be cards. The spirits could identify objects.

Someone could slowly give the spirits a short list of different types of plants, or fruits (for example) without flaccon being present, then flaccon could ask them to repeat the list later.

They would have to give flaccon the list and someone else would have to discern what they're saying, as apparently they can't see or hear anything that flaccon can't.

Are you sure they can't hear anyone else but flaccon?

flaccon wouldn't see the list.

She would just ask the spirits to tell her the items on the list one by one.

Flaccon, can the spirits hear other people speak?
 
flaccon: if your spirits are so stupid that they think using a standard scientific protocol incorporating cards is beneath them then you need to tell us what information they are prepared to deign to communicate so that we can construct a protocol using that instead.

Can or will they, for example,

Tell us what a person in the next room is doing or wearing or saying?

Tell us which of several possible pictures is being displayed on a computer screen?

Tell us which of several possible objects has been placed on a table?

Tell us the name of the deceased relative of someone present? (Thanks trustbutverify - very appropriate username)

In any of these cases we can do a meaningful test where either you look at something and one of your witnesses listens to the recordings, or one of your witnesses looks at something and you listen to the recordings. ETA: in one case you can just listen to the recording yourself. In any case, a meaningful test can be constructed if the spirits can and will do any of the above.

If your spirits won't cooperate at all then there is nothing further we can do to help.
 
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At the moment I'd be impressed if Flaccon just asked the spirits to say something (anything) and write down what they said and then got someone else to sit and listen to the same audio file and the second person managed to hear the same thing... But there's way too much room for collusion.
 
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This goes back to some of the simpler questions mentioned earlier. I'm not really anonymous. A little bit of work and one can find my name. Others here are. If the spirits are in your computer and can read the messages here, perhaps they could reveal the full names of a couple of truly anonymous members, who would be willing to step forward and proffer themselves for that purpose.

I've said that I'm happy for that to be me. The name I'm going to change to by deed poll is out there on the internet, is a real first name (in that if you do a search for it you'll find nothing but entries of people whose name it is), and it's also what my mother calls me. It is, however, far too unusual to be guessed and, while I can prove that it is a name the person who holds the account "Squeegee Beckenheim" uses, it's not one that would be easily found from this account using non-supernatural means.

In other words, it's information that should be trivial for the spirits to find out, information I can verify is accurate, but not information that it should be easy to find by anybody corporeal unless that person happens to be a friend or family member of mine. All I'd need is the first name.

I'm loathe to say much more about it in the thread, as I don't want to give inadvertent clues, but I'm happy to PM the name and why I think it's particularly strong in the way that I can verify it to somebody, if someone wants to see if they agree.
 
flaccon: if your spirits are so stupid that they think using a standard scientific protocol incorporating cards is beneath them then you need to tell us what information they are prepared to deign to communicate so that we can construct a protocol using that instead...

...If your spirits won't cooperate at all then there is nothing further we can do to help.

Nearly all skeptics on this site say I meet their definition of a Woo. In this thread I will get into character despite this being serious business.

Last year I was challenged to put up or shut up. I replied I might give it a try when the timing was right. The omens now auger well for the time and the method.

[Note: These omens were not ravens or entrails, but content on TV while running on the treadmill at the gym. If I was out on safari, it would be something in nature]

I want to challenge flaccon (informally) – woo on woo. There are two aspects to this challenge. One is to agree on the protocol for me with the group, and the other is to debate with flaccon as to her motivation.

My proposal is a simple experiment using a modified set of Zener cards.

The experiment:
Six Zener symbols – circle, cross, wavy lines, square, star and asterisk. Twelve trials.

According to binomial distribution probability the odds of getting correct guesses are (rounded approximations):
0 = 9, 1 = 4, 2 = 3, 3 = 5, 4 = 11, 5 = 35, 6 = 151, 7 = 880, 8 = 7036,
9 = 79,000, 10 = 1,320,000, 11 = 36,000,000, 12 = 2,200,000,000

The higher the odds the better, but if this was a formal challenge, what odds would be required?

Comments are invited. Should I just watch this thread from the side-lines and not “muddy the waters”? Should my test application be a separate thread? I would add that I am not going to make a formal application, but I do have a procedure thought out.
 
Comments are invited. Should I just watch this thread from the side-lines and not “muddy the waters”?

I would say that you should feel free to comment, but we're gradually working our way towards a workable protocol here and you presenting something almost entirely different which is a long way from a protocol and would have to be worked on in its own right is about as far from helpful as can be.

Should my test application be a separate thread?

Unquestionably.
 
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