Looking for Skeptics

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Alderbank said:
flacon, you must agree in advance exactly what testing we will do and how we will do it.

I am fairly comfortable with testing procedures in general - I have carried out clinical trials, I regularly do investigations, audits and assessments as part of my job and I am an accredited auditor for BSI and other systems. However this kind of test is as new to me as it is to you. I want it to be fair and robust. Small innocent changes which I naively don't understand could render the whole exercise valueless. I never thought of the spectacles or the pillow case, for instance.

Only you know what the spirits can and can't do so you should say what the test should be. Others here as you can see will help with the design so that it is fair and will give meaningful results. You have to agree in advance to the detail of the test procedure and that is exactly what we will stick to. If I am being unreasonable I am sure wiser posters here will be quick to tell me so.

Scanning through recent threads, I don't think we are quite there yet. If I have missed it and final procedure is agreed, I apologise. Point me to it and I'll print it off, gather the materials together and be on my way. If we need more time and discussion to agree the procedure, let's focus on getting that done and reschedule to another day.

Does that sound OK with everyone?

(Perhaps more experienced members of this Forum would be relaxed about making up a testing procedure on the hoof. But I need to walk before I can run)
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I did agree to playing cards, coloured cards, etc. I wrote it out. I don't mind rescheduling, butI do assure you Aldrebank, it is all good to go here.
 
She knows. She knows full well there are no spirits and she knows they will not be able to tell what cards are in the envelopes. My guess is she is so enthusiastic and convincing, people agree they are hearing what she has told them they are hearing. Maybe they're even a little scared of what might happen if they disagree. This thread and every post she's made are complete evidence she is well aware there are no spirits.
 
flaccon said:
PS, For whoever offered to fly over here, I will gladly refund your fare if you go away unconvinced.
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That would be me. You omitted the fact that I stated I would do it for free if you could provide compelling reason to do so. So far, you have provided no evidence.
 
flaccon said:
I'll also hold a card up and ask the spirit that will be working with us, to repeat that card.

It is 99% likely that the spirit's see through my eyes, but Alderbank's spirits will see through his eyes, and both our spirit guides will communicate.
They are not ethereal. They are not being recorded via any external sound.
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So this means either you or Alderbank must see the card before the spirits can identify it? Unfortunately, this makes a double blind test impossible. Too bad, I was hoping for confirmation of spirits this evening. I guess I will just have to go on with boring reality after all.

IXP
 
Stray Cat said:
I think that Pixel was referring to your suggestion that you look at the card then you get the spirits to tell you which card you just looked at.
Which for all intents and purposes is no different from you looking at a card and then you telling us which card you just looked at.

If you don't object to Alderbank placing a card in an envelope without you seeing it and then getting the spirits to tell you which card Alderbank has placed in the envelope. That is at least a starting point.
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I wrote that clearly last night, and posted it to here.

The aim of both ways, is to show that the spirits can name every card in the deck. Even to put a hidden card in a sealed envelope that neither Alderbank or I know, and see if they can "see" it without using our eyes, is a fair tester.

It's just an elaboration to that particular test.
 
steenkh said:
Flaccon, please be aware that any protocol where you get to see the card until after you have written down what you think the spirits say, is unacceptable. Let Alderbank show the card to the spirits, but keeping it hidden from you, or even better, let Alderbank hold the card so that neither you nor Alderbank can see the card (but let the spirits have a good look).

And, Alderbank, I am sorry for calling you Alderman in a previous post. I write on an iPad, and strange substitutions happen!
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Bolded part.

Is this agreeable to Alderbank? To flaccon? It is surely not ironclad and is not even close to a scientific double-blinded test, but to convince Alderbank that this might be worthwhile pursuing, I'd say it would work.

And having conducted this particular test, then Alderbank can listen to as many recordings as he feels like listening to and/or flaccon feels like playing. Or look at blood stains. Or whatever.
 
flaccon said:
I did agree to playing cards, coloured cards, etc. I wrote it out. I don't mind rescheduling, butI do assure you Aldrebank, it is all good to go here.
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flaccon, this is what Pixel42 said about the playing cards protocol you posted - 'Which playing cards idea, mine or yours? Yours is utter rubbish, not to put too fine a point of it. Totally inadequate.'

Go back and look at the detailed protocols made by posters in the last 48 hours. All the ones using cards look good to me but I don't know what the spirits could work with. You do.

Tell us your choice of protocol, preferably after trying it out to see if would work, and at this stage other posters will offer advice about how to avoid any pitfalls and carry it out fairly.

If the spirits won't co-operate with any of them come back and tell us with as much detail as you can, and I'm sure we will get new suggestions.

We are talking about a very simple, basic little test. If we all work together I reckon we could have a sound, workable protocol agreed by this time tomorrow and you and I could run the test tomorrow evening
 
flaccon said:
I wrote that clearly last night, and posted it to here.

The aim of both ways, is to show that the spirits can name every card in the deck. Even to put a hidden card in a sealed envelope that neither Alderbank or I know, and see if they can "see" it without using our eyes, is a fair tester.

It's just an elaboration to that particular test.
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The aim at the outset is to demonstrate that you have something worthy of investigation. That has not happened yet.
 
IXP said:
So this means either you or Alderbank must see the card before the spirits can identify it? Unfortunately, this makes a double blind test impossible. Too bad, I was hoping for confirmation of spirits this evening. I guess I will just have to go on with boring reality after all.

IXP
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No IX, me OR Alderbank see's the card, and then neither of us see the card. I'd like to see if the spirits can get it right without using our sight.
 
flaccon said:
I'd like to see if the spirits can get it right without using our sight.
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Which means that you do not know if they can or cannot.

So if you agree to a test where neither you nor Alderbank see the card, and the spirits cannot identify it, that is not a failure in your eyes, right?

Do you understand that you must agree beforehand what is a success and what is a failure for the test you are going to perform? I would say that you have already ruled this out for any test in which no one in the room knows the card beforehand.

The odds that a test can be agreed upon are dropping faster than the stock marked in 2008.

IXP
 
flaccon,

You seem to be making a very fundamental error when discussing test protocols. You begin with the assumption the spirits exist, and then you want to show what they can do.

That is not what this is about. The starting assumption must be that the spirits do not exist, then what can we do to discredit that assumption.

If you see that card then you tell us you hear a matching message in the noise of a recording, then what was accomplished? Spirits or pareidolia? The test does nothing to distinguish between the two.

Please, please, stop focusing so hard on showing off your spirits. There is plenty of time for that later. We first need some convincing evidence there are spirits in the first place.
 
Foolmewunz said:
From what I read, her attitude is sort of "protocol/schmotocol - the spirits will convince you", so take your cards or whatever, but my instinct from reading this thread is that if you get involved in developing an iron-clad protocol, you'll be at this for a month and we'll be posting on June 29th.... "So, is it on for 3 pm on the 30th?"
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I agree with your suggestion that the applicant apparently does not consider the protocol to be all that important.
 
flacon, you don't need me to find out whether the spirits need a third party's eyes. Just do a test with a family member. You could do it right now.

If you find that someone has to look at the card in order for the spirits to be able to see it, we might still be able to test but with a different protocol. Your family member would need to sit in an adjoining room out of your sight. However this would be a much less robust test for a variety of reasons.

sorry foolmewunz I spelt flaccon's name wrong
 
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flaccon said:
No IX, me OR Alderbank see's the card, and then neither of us see the card. I'd like to see if the spirits can get it right without using our sight.
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You could test this by yourself to see if it is possible without having to potentially inconvenience anyone else or potentially waste their time.

Of course you'd have to be totally honest with yourself and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you would be honest with yourself, but all you need to do is shuffle a deck of cards and without looking at it, choose one and place it face down on the table. Then ask the spirits which card you have just chosen and then see if they give you an answer, After you think you have the answer, turn over the card and see if it's right.

If you can do this simple self test, then we have a starting point to develop a protocol in which we can all agree what constitutes a success and what constitutes a failure.

If you are suggesting a test that you yourself don't even know you can pass, then we aren't actually testing anything that you're claiming, we are testing to see if we can find something for you to claim.
 
Alderbank said:
flaccon, this is what Pixel42 said about the playing cards protocol you posted - 'Which playing cards idea, mine or yours? Yours is utter rubbish, not to put too fine a point of it. Totally inadequate.'

Go back and look at the detailed protocols made by posters in the last 48 hours. All the ones using cards look good to me but I don't know what the spirits could work with. You do.

Tell us your choice of protocol, preferably after trying it out to see if would work, and at this stage other posters will offer advice about how to avoid any pitfalls and carry it out fairly.

If the spirits won't co-operate with any of them come back and tell us with as much detail as you can, and I'm sure we will get new suggestions.

We are talking about a very simple, basic little test. If we all work together I reckon we could have a sound, workable protocol agreed by this time tomorrow and you and I could run the test tomorrow evening
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I do keep mentioning that the spirits are ok with the card testing, coloured or playing. The spirits are cooperating.

I did test them to see if they could clearly shout cards out, it is clear.
 
flaccon said:
I do keep mentioning that the spirits are ok with the card testing, coloured or playing. The spirits are cooperating.

I did test them to see if they could clearly shout cards out, it is clear.
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You continue to ignore what people of said. When you know which card, the test has no value.
 
flaccon said:
I did test them to see if they could clearly shout cards out, it is clear.
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Can they shout out cards when you don't know what they are?. That's the important question. Have you tried putting a card somewhere where you can't see it, when you don't know what it is, asked the spirits what card it is, written down their answer, and then and only then looked at the card?

That's what's required.
 
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