Looking for Skeptics

[Stray Cat]

Does flaccon need to hear the recording? Perhaps we could have a few "dry runs", with flaccon listening to the recordings to determine how long the spirits take to produce a recording with a message, and then for the actual test just make recordings of sufficient length, which flaccon would not listen to.

I think the idea that Flaccon should listen to the recording first is so that she can confirm that the spirits have indeed answer the question correctly. This is to stop her from later claiming that the spirits must have been on a tea break. Of course all that is irrelevant if the spirits can (as claimed) change what they say on her audio files at a later time.

 

[Stray Cat]

So you have a recording of God. Is that what you are saying?


.
[or more accurately: is that what you are saying today?]

No, the "unbiased, open minded person" Flaccon is referring to is her sister.
She claims the voice was the voice of her and (of course) her sisters father Reg.

 

[Pixel42]

Follow up to the BBC magazine's article on pareidolia:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22781861

It would be interesting to hear from flaccon if she thinks any of these faces are really there.

 

[wardenclyffe]

There still seems to be confusion about whether the voices are on the recording (and therefore audible whenever and wherever they are played back) or are actually produced 'live' by the spirits manipulating the playback. I don't think flaccon has given a coherent explanation of this point.

Ultimately, I don't know that it matters. Either her sister hears what she's supposed to hear (or flaccon hears it herself in the protocol that I stole from earlier in the thread). Whether they've been recorded or whether they just speak while something unrelated plays back seems unimportant now.

I mean, we could set up a protocol in which random recordings are made, but that's even further down the road---if we even stay on that road.

Ward

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Spirit voices are real, it is earth shattering,

Please prove it.

The only way to prove it is take a look, it is that simple.

That is not proof. It's that simple.

Believe this or not.

Until you can come up with some proof, I'm sticking with 'not'.

 

[Mojo]

I think the idea that Flaccon should listen to the recording first is so that she can confirm that the spirits have indeed answer the question correctly. This is to stop her from later claiming that the spirits must have been on a tea break.

I think adequate blinding is going to be a major problem.

 

[Stray Cat]

I think adequate blinding is going to be a major problem.

I think the problems will be more fundamental than that.
But even though we're trying to get a test as objective as possible (within the obvious restrictions the spirits are capable of), this is only a preliminary test to see if there is even anything worth looking into further. There are opportunities to "cheat" and to my knowledge Alderbank is not a magician nor experienced in this sort of testing, so it certainly isn't a watertight protocol, but there is a part of me that thinks we may not even need to sweat it trying to corral this herd of cats and come up with a tighter test if the slacker one doesn't show anything that most of us don't already expect.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

There still seems to be confusion about whether the voices are on the recording (and therefore audible whenever and wherever they are played back) or are actually produced 'live' by the spirits manipulating the playback. I don't think flaccon has given a coherent explanation of this point.

I rather suspect most of the noise within which flaccon hears voices is produced in the output of her laptop. If that is the case then the noise and hence the voices may not be the same each time a recording is played.


Although it would cause problems with blinding, perhaps flaccon should be present while her daughter listens to the recordings, so long as flaccon only speaks to confirm whether or not she hears the spirits clearly naming the right card (perhaps restrict herself to saying "clear" or "unclear"), and then her daughter writes down what she hears the spirits say and does not let flaccon know what she wrote until after the test.

It might also be useful to write down each time whether flaccon said the recording was clear or not, what her daughter thinks the spirits say the card was (if she can hear it) and whether she thinks it was clear or not.

Maybe to exclude any possibility of flaccon signalling answers to her daughter, they should sit back to back.

 

[Pixel42]

I rather suspect most of the noise within which flaccon hears voices is produced in the output of her laptop. If that is the case then the noise and hence the voices may not be the same each time a recording is played.

That would explain a lot.

 

[Alderbank]

Stray Cat, I should have said early on that although I love watching magic I am not a conjuror and I am easily fooled by simple tricks.

I would not be comfortable with flaccon being in the same room as her daughter and saying 'clear' or 'not clear'. There would inevitably be far too much non-verbal communication between mother and daughter.

I will take my laptop and tablet along and with flaccon's permission of course I would welcome Skyping the event. If anyone is interested please say so on the Forum and I will PM you. If you are able to record the stream or set up a group Skype then so much the better.

I see lots of intriguing ideas for improvements in recent posts. Remember I'm a newbie - I would appreciate someone collating these into one single procedure for me to work to.

 

[Donn]

They see cards clearly.
I carried out a test earlier, to see if they could see cards that I couldn't see. They didn't even guess. They just said they can't do that sort of trick.

To paraphrase my sig:
If I hadn't believed it with my own mind I would never have heard it!



ps: Hoping this new test protocol happens.

 

[malicus]

I think adequate blinding is going to be a major problem.

I think the spirits not wishing to cooperate is the major problem. Now, tomorrow and on every properly conducted test from here on. Calling it.

 

[Mojo]

Maybe to exclude any possibility of flaccon signalling answers to her daughter, they should sit back to back.

They shouldn't be in the same room. Passing messages by making small sounds (scuffing a shoe on the floor or whatever) would be quite possible, and if possible would be a far more plausible explanation for correctly identified cards than spirits.

ETA: flaccon, I'm not necessarily suggesting that you would actually do this, just that it is a possibility that needs to be eliminated if the test is going to be able to prove anything.

 

[Cassidy]

So you have a recording of God. Is that what you are saying?


.
[or more accurately: is that what you are saying today?]

Possibilities are,

Its a bunch of religious spirits with good intent, but with no real result. However, good results have been evident, and medically documented.

Or its a bunch of converted demons playing positive tricks for 8 months (Highly unlikely)

Or its a bunch of spirits being led by a powerful spirit-guide, who will not reveal his identity to me.

Or its contact from another planet, from aliens who can use voices that we can recognise. (Highly unlikely)

Or its an illness, and I waste all my time here because I have nothing better to do.

At the end of the day, I'm in no position to say what it is. One trace of negativity would have stopped me from furthering this, but I haven't had any. At an educated guess I'd say my hunches are correct.

After this evening's testing, this thread can move on either way. If just a trace of failure is detected, I will seriously be questioning myself and 10 other people, and march us all for therapy.

If all is good this evening, and I do not doubt this, it would be good for a few of us (the fearless) to sort a quiet hall out somewhere. I can travel these days.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Possibilities are,

Its a bunch of religious spirits with good intent, but with no real result. However, good results have been evident, and medically documented.

Or its a bunch of converted demons playing positive tricks for 8 months (Highly unlikely)

Or its a bunch of spirits being led by a powerful spirit-guide, who will not reveal his identity to me.

Or its contact from another planet, from aliens who can use voices that we can recognise. (Highly unlikely)

Or its an illness, and I waste all my time here because I have nothing better to do.

At the end of the day, I'm in no position to say what it is. One trace of negativity would have stopped me from furthering this, but I haven't had any. At an educated guess I'd say my hunches are correct.

After this evening's testing, this thread can move on either way. If just a trace of failure is detected, I will seriously be questioning myself and 10 other people, and march us all for therapy.

If all is good this evening, and I do not doubt this, it would be good for a few of us (the fearless) to sort a quiet hall out somewhere. I can travel these days.

You missed the one most of us tend to favour;

It's not an illness, but it really is just your imagination playing tricks with you.

 

[Cassidy]

They shouldn't be in the same room. Passing messages by making small sounds (scuffing a shoe on the floor or whatever) would be quite possible, and if possible would be a far more plausible explanation for correctly identified cards than spirits.

ETA: flaccon, I'm not necessarily suggesting that you would actually do this, just that it is a possibility that needs to be eliminated if the test is going to be able to prove anything.

I promise to not tamper anything. Best if Kate remains silent, and stands behind me at all times.

 

[Cassidy]

You missed the one most of us tend to favour;

It's not an illness, but it really is just your imagination playing tricks with you.

I know, it didn't even enter my head due to others hearing and recognising speech, but yes, it is another possibility from an outside point of view.

 

[Cassidy]

I think the spirits not wishing to cooperate is the major problem. Now, tomorrow and on every properly conducted test from here on. Calling it.

If the spirits do not wish to cooperate, they will say this clear enough to the tester. Then they will chat about all sorts.

I am certain that Paredolia will be eliminated this evening.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Possibilities are,

Its a bunch of religious spirits with good intent, but with no real result. However, good results have been evident, and medically documented.

Or its a bunch of converted demons playing positive tricks for 8 months (Highly unlikely)

Or its a bunch of spirits being led by a powerful spirit-guide, who will not reveal his identity to me.

Or its contact from another planet, from aliens who can use voices that we can recognise. (Highly unlikely)

Or its an illness, and I waste all my time here because I have nothing better to do.

I can simplify that list considerably.

1. It's something paranormal (highly unlikely)

2. You're lying

3. You're mistaken.

#3 is the most likely explanation.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Many children believe in Santa Claus. Would you say the possibilities regarding his existence only are:
1. Santa Claus is real.
2. Those children are mentally ill.

or would it be more likely that:
3. Those children are simply mistaken.