Looking for Skeptics

[Orphia Nay]

Da Vinci code-style nonsense? I gather the spirits are Dan Brown fans?

As I'm sure you probably are as well.

What a coincidence.

It's no coincidence your wrong every time. No, I don't read story books.

More apparent stretching of the truth.

You said this last night my time:

I've not read The Da Vinci code, although I was asked to do so for a while. We settled on the Forewords, and Chapter 23. There were enough clues in that, to realise what they were trying to say.

 

[Foolmewunz]

More apparent stretching of the truth.

You said this last night my time:

And please note the name of her website.

 

[Ladewig]

Yes one, who said I'd pre-done the recordings for a set up. Even though she saw that I did live recordings in front of her, with a third party standing by. Being Lady Snip- - -, married to an ex-chief of Snip yard, Live recording "Snip can you hear just some voices?"

I'll claim this, that was our Father begging her.

So you have a recording of God. Is that what you are saying?


.
[or more accurately: is that what you are saying today?]

 

[Pixel42]

I like the idea of getting round the fact that the spirits can't apparently see anything that flaccon isn't looking at by getting someone else to identify the answers to the questions flaccon is asking in her recordings. Obviously that second person has to be someone flaccon has confidence (a) can also hear the voices she hears and (b) will not lie about what they're hearing, so it has to be one of the witnesses she has already identified. A family member such as her daughter would be ideal.

 

[Orphia Nay]

And please note the name of her website.

Indeed!

Chapter 3 of the Da Vinci Code is about Sophie discovering a key belonging to her grandfather which has a fleur de lys on it and the initials P.S which stand for Princess Sophie / Priory of Sion.

 

[SezMe]

It would be far, far better if flaccon can provide the third. You, Alderbank should only observe, facilitate, and monitor. Flaccon needs an ally she has pre-screened and is confident in the ally's ability.<snip>

I think this is a good protocol and the above is important. If Alderbank or anyone else does the listening, the obvious out is that the listener isn't trained or experienced enough to hear the message.

I have a different protocol that involves only Alderbank and flaccon if that becomes important. It involves ONLY flaccon listening so all issues regarding "hearability" go away. But I'll sit on it to see how this one pans out.

 

[SezMe]

I think a no-protocol demonstration could result in me being added to the list of witnesses.

flaccon says Skype is excellent. I often use it to talk to family in California. You could Skype flaccon, observe the process and listen to the results.

Skype for ordinary conversations is excellent. But where things off camera or off mic are critically important it is inadequate to the task.

That said, if you were able to set up a separate laptop to Skype the whole event, I'd watch no matter what local time was.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I didn't say the spirit couldn't read. They see cards clearly.

They see cards clearly, but cannot identify them?

I carried out a test earlier, to see if they could see cards that I couldn't see. They didn't even guess.

If they can only tell you information that you already know, then that should make you think very carefully about whether they're actually just in your head or not.

work out a protocol to test spirits.

We did. It involved them giving you information that you didn't already know. You claim that they can't do that.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Then, to come and see a fresh record being done, for the spirits to introduce themselves, and converse. It really is that simple.

Earlier in the thread you dismissed one of my suggestions by saying that the noise of birds outside your window would make it impossible to make a new recording in front of another person. What's changed?

 

[abaddon]

Yes one, who said I'd pre-done the recordings for a set up. Even though she saw that I did live recordings in front of her, with a third party standing by. Being Lady Snip- - -, married to an ex-chief of Snip yard, Live recording "Snip can you hear just some voices?"

I'll claim this, that was our Father begging her.

Yet it wasn't obvious until you interpreted it. Right.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

It would be far, far better if flaccon can provide the third. You, Alderbank should only observe, facilitate, and monitor. Flaccon needs an ally she has pre-screened and is confident in the ally's ability.

Here's a simple explanation of how I'd conceive the test be run (with three):

First, Alderbank selects a card and allows flaccon to view it. Ideally, Alderbank does not view the card, himself. For each card in turn, flaccon asks the spirits to identify it, then she listens to the recording playback to hear the card correctly identified. If this fails, flaccon will again ask then listen. She will not go on to the next card until she has a useable recording. Flaccon may request a substitute card be selected, but the total under of ask then listen attempts should be limited. Let's say 4 tries in total for the original and any substitute cards before declaring the test a failure.

ETA: Three cards + recordings are needed.

After each recording is deemed acceptable, Alderbank will seal the card in a numbered envelope and set it one side. The recording files should be named in some generic way that includes the card number (something like CARD1.WAV, CARD2.WAV, and CARD3.WAV would be good) and placed in a directory with no other files on flaccon's computer.

The computer should be left set up so the individual recordings can be easily played for flaccon's friend during the next part. Alderbank look over the computer screen and the general area around it for any (presumably unintended) clues to the cards' identities.

Flaccon leaves and the friend is brought in.

Alderbank will then replay each of the recordings for the friend, one at a time, and allow the friend to name the corresponding card from the recording. Let's put a 20 minute time limit on listening and relistening before abandoning that card.

The first card will be used for an open test. Alderbank will open the first envelope and show the card to the friend (ideally without viewing the card himself). The open test will give the friend the opportunity to become comfortable with the environment and that things working.

For the other two tests, Alderbank will write the card name provided by the friend on the corresponding envelope.

Once all three cards have been handled, flaccon will be brought back in and Alderbank will open the envelopes and permit both flaccon and the friend to compare the cards to what the friend heard on the recordings.

flaccon should also write down what she believes the card to be, somewhere out of sight of Alderbank and the third person.

 

[Stomatopoda]

It's no coincidence your wrong every time. No, I don't read story books.

You know, if you read more books, you'd probably figure out how to use apostrophes correctly... as well as learning more about the world. Then again, knowledge tends to make spirits disappear.

 

[Mojo]

They see through the eyes of the person they inhibit.

Can they see through the eyes of the person they "inhibit" and then say what they see to a second person?

ETA: I now see that there are another two pages since I was last here and this has been addressed.

 

[wardenclyffe]

flaccon should also write down what she believes the card to be, somewhere out of sight of Alderbank and the third person.

In that protocol, flaccon will already have seen the card and know the answer.

The protocol's OK for a start, since flaccon has people that she says are trained to hear the spirits in the recordings.

However, I predict it will not be successful for flaccon. In which case we will have to go to a protocol that someone suggested a while ago (I can't remember who, but I'm sure they'll take credit) where flaccon sees the card, shows it to the spirits, tells the spirits what the card is and asks them to repeat it. She records the repetition. Alderbank then saves that recording to a folder with a name that will not indicate whether what order it came in. Alderbank then puts the card in an envelop along with a note that indicates the folder name. Repeat ten times. Then flaccon listens to each recording and just matches each folder up to each card.

No one will understand these recordings better than flaccon herself. Not Alderbank, not her daughter, not Mr. Bulger, not anyone. If it does not work out with her daughter, this should be the next step.

Ward

 

[Pixel42]

One thing missing from jsfisher's excellent protocol is what will count as a hit when it comes to identifying the card. As flaccon insists that the spirits can speak whole sentences I suggest that both suit and number (e.g. ace of spades, three of clubs) be required for a hit. My concern is that if only one word (e.g. just suit or just number) is required then flaccon will simply keep trying until she hears a noise on the recording that sounds a bit like the required word. I know she only gets four attempts but that might be enough to coincidentally get a close enough sounding noise to give the identifier better-than-chance odds of getting the right answer.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

In that protocol, flaccon will already have seen the card and know the answer.

It should still be written down, to ensure absolute clarity.

 

[zooterkin]

In which case we will have to go to a protocol that someone suggested a while ago (I can't remember who, but I'm sure they'll take credit) where flaccon sees the card, shows it to the spirits, tells the spirits what the card is and asks them to repeat it. She records the repetition. Alderbank then saves that recording to a folder with a name that will not indicate whether what order it came in. Alderbank then puts the card in an envelop along with a note that indicates the folder name. Repeat ten times. Then flaccon listens to each recording and just matches each folder up to each card.

There still seems to be confusion about whether the voices are on the recording (and therefore audible whenever and wherever they are played back) or are actually produced 'live' by the spirits manipulating the playback. I don't think flaccon has given a coherent explanation of this point.

 

[Foolmewunz]

One thing missing from jsfisher's excellent protocol is what will count as a hit when it comes to identifying the card. As flaccon insists that the spirits can speak whole sentences I suggest that both suit and number (e.g. ace of spades, three of clubs) be required for a hit. My concern is that if only one word (e.g. just suit or just number) is required then flaccon will simply keep trying until she hears a noise on the recording that sounds a bit like the required word. I know she only gets four attempts but that might be enough to coincidentally get a close enough sounding noise to give the identifier better-than-chance odds of getting the right answer.

Oh, I dunno. I don't think she's going to need to listen to more than one response to hear what she knows the card is. I think the question is going to be whether the observer hears that same thing or whether anyone other than flaccon is hearing the same thing. Did anyone hear anything remotely similar in the samples of recordings?

 

[Pixel42]

Did anyone hear anything remotely similar in the samples of recordings?

Someone heard words where she heard words, and though they interpreted them differently the actual phonetic sound was similar. If only four different sounding words are being looked for, i.e. if the card's suit is considered sufficient for a hit, then it would be possible to wait for a noise that sounds a bit more like the required word than it does the three alternatives.

In any case, which card-descriptive words would count as a hit should certainly be specified in the protocol.

 

[Mojo]

One thing missing from jsfisher's excellent protocol is what will count as a hit when it comes to identifying the card. As flaccon insists that the spirits can speak whole sentences I suggest that both suit and number (e.g. ace of spades, three of clubs) be required for a hit. My concern is that if only one word (e.g. just suit or just number) is required then flaccon will simply keep trying until she hears a noise on the recording that sounds a bit like the required word. I know she only gets four attempts but that might be enough to coincidentally get a close enough sounding noise to give the identifier better-than-chance odds of getting the right answer.

Does flaccon need to hear the recording? Perhaps we could have a few "dry runs", with flaccon listening to the recordings to determine how long the spirits take to produce a recording with a message, and then for the actual test just make recordings of sufficient length, which flaccon would not listen to.

Also, this:

There still seems to be confusion about whether the voices are on the recording (and therefore audible whenever and wherever they are played back) or are actually produced 'live' by the spirits manipulating the playback. I don't think flaccon has given a coherent explanation of this point.