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Looking for challenge

Christopher Pille said:
Lack of practitioners willing to make the effort to convince those who reject its premise of an ambient energy usable for healing, I'd guess.

Most are content to minister to the 'believers'.
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Thank you Chris.

I must be a bit thick because I cannot quite grok that.

I figure you are saying there is a proposition that there is "an ambient energy usable for healing", and that some reject that proposition.

I cannot imagine why some medical practitioners would be unwilling to convince other (doubting) medical practitioners, of a good treatment for scoliosis.
And why do some medical practitioners "reject the premise" anyway?
Surely the literature will clearly indicate it's efficiacy, or lack thereof?
 
Flange Desire said:
I cannot imagine why some medical practitioners would be unwilling to convince other (doubting) medical practitioners, of a good treatment for scoliosis.
And why do some medical practitioners "reject the premise" anyway?
Surely the literature will clearly indicate it's efficiacy, or lack thereof?
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The premise of an ambient healing energy contradicts our knowledge of nature. With all the Quackwatch-type activity out there, some doctors might be afraid to associate with something that sounds so much like quackery.

But if it works, it works. And even if it doesn't, there are at least a few hundred people who think it does, including doctors who use these techniques to complement their practice. Why they aren't actively trying to spread the word about this, I don't know. Or maybe they are and we have yet to hear them. Or take them seriously if we have.
 
Chris's technique hasn't been around long enough to build up any literature. Take TT for example. There are lots of studies and papers. Most of them aren't good literature per say, but it has gotten academic attention. Also it's covered with a crust of the kinds of woo-woo claims and even product endorsments that are enough to instantly kill any creadibility. That includes a very unfortunate moniker for the practice. That's why Chris does well to distance himself from it as such.
The Challenge doesn't require him to allign himself with a school or particular designation for what he wants to demonstrate.
 
Christopher Pille said:
Unsure if he refers to my first or second application, but for what it's worth:



Edit: He has my first application.
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The reason I asked, of course, was to hopefully save you the cost of another notarization and mailing fee. Oh well. You'll soon have a million bucks, right? What's a few extra dollars now?
 
Christopher Pille said:
The premise of an ambient healing energy contradicts our knowledge of nature.
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Yep, sounds like a valid subject for a challenge claim. Not that you need to explain how you do what you do at all.

So, a 20% reduction in spine curvature without any contact at all, that's the claim? And you're using ambient healing energy to do it. That's healing energy that's just floating around all the time, all around us. Completely indectable to modern science.

What gets me wondering is that if what you do is so simple to do and obvious that merely describing what you do would put you at risk of being beaten to the million dollar prize, why isn't it already standard procedure? How come no one before has successfully demonstrated such an effective and obvious technique?
 
politas said:
Yep, sounds like a valid subject for a challenge claim. Not that you need to explain how you do what you do at all.

So, a 20% reduction in spine curvature without any contact at all, that's the claim? And you're using ambient healing energy to do it. That's healing energy that's just floating around all the time, all around us. Completely indectable to modern science.

What gets me wondering is that if what you do is so simple to do and obvious that merely describing what you do would put you at risk of being beaten to the million dollar prize, why isn't it already standard procedure? How come no one before has successfully demonstrated such an effective and obvious technique?
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re standard procedure ... see post 123
but the more people that point out the obvious to Chris, the better.

re 20% ... see post 132
where Chris says something about 'without any physical manipulation',
though i cannot envisage a definition of 'manipulation' that is not 'physical'.
 
Flange Desire said:
re standard procedure ... see post 123
but the more people that point out the obvious to Chris, the better.

re 20% ... see post 132
where Chris says something about 'without any physical manipulation',
though i cannot envisage a definition of 'manipulation' that is not 'physical'.
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"without any physical manipulation"
He means without using his fingers to try to massage muscle or move bone. It's not a manipulation in the massage sense.
He intends to do no more than a series of light finger contacts along the vertebra of the spine without pressure and movement.

Of course what is to come of it is very physical and depends upon him touching a living body.

This kind of "Energy" work came out of another way on the fringe school of "energetic healing." This whole area has always been off the western medical map. It's not something taken seriously, except to contemporary Massage Therapy, but everyone knows Massage Therapy collects and plays with a lot of woo-woo stuff.
 
Flange Desire said:
re 20% ... see post 132
where Chris says something about 'without any physical manipulation',
though i cannot envisage a definition of 'manipulation' that is not 'physical'.
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He has indicated the 20% figure here in the forum, but in his claim letter to JREF, this was not mentioned.

For the record.

Also, Jeff Wagg has said to Chris that he thinks it's a "good idea" for me to go ahead and witness the demonstration ----- however, I am asking for further clarification of this from Jeff, because it contradicts what Randi himself told me. All of this is happening behind the scenes, and is quite silly, IMHO.

I see no reason whatsoever for the JREF Challenge Admin. to withhold the "Unbending A Spine" claim from this forum. Jeff has indicated that he is overwhelmed with about 40 new Applications piled up on his desk, and that is a large backlog to deal with, to be sure, but how many of them involve a case of the JREF Challenge Admin telling JREF Forum members to go ahead and perform (chris) & witness (me) a paranormal demonstration and submit an affidavit? (In apparent contradiction to what was told to me by James Randi himself).

I will stand by, in the meantime, waiting for further detail as to how to proceed.
 
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webfusion said:
He has indicated the 20% figure here in the forum, but in his claim letter to JREF, this was not mentioned.

For the record.

Also, Jeff Wagg has said to Chris that he thinks it's a "good idea" for me to go ahead and witness the demonstration ----- however, I am asking for further clarification of this from Jeff, because it contradicts what Randi himself told me. All of this is happening behind the scenes, and is quite silly, IMHO.

I see no reason whatsoever for the JREF Challenge Admin. to withhold the "Unbending A Spine" claim from this forum. Jeff has indicated that he is overwhelmed with about 40 new Applications piled up on his desk, and that is a large backlog to deal with, to be sure, but how many of them involve a case of the JREF Challenge Admin telling JREF Forum members to go ahead and perform (chris) & witness (me) a paranormal demonstration and submit an affidavit? (In apparent contradiction to what was told to me by James Randi himself).

I will stand by, in the meantime, waiting for further detail as to how to proceed.
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I would highly reccomend standing and waiting. Organizations often get into miscommunication debacles. For your sake and the sake of Chris's claim, I suggest not proceeding till all lights are green. There are good reasons to seek affadavits from parties totally outside the JREF.
 
My argument is that having one affidavit under my belt would help in my approach of medical professionals for the other two. And, if I was unable to get even the first affidavit, I would not have to waste the time of any doctors.
 
And my argument is -- I still don't see the point of wasting my time, unless it adds anything to getting this claim into the light of day and publicly presented to the JREF community.

I will not lift a finger at this junction, until the entire claim is presented in the proper context, in the proper place for it to be viewed by all:

HERE in the Challenge Applications section
 
10-20

Updated:

James Randi writes in today's Commentary:
You'll have to wait another week for the challenge update...we're waiting for someone to review the materials.
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Once we all have the opportunity to see the Application, and the details of this Claim, I'll get back in contact with Christopher about going forward with a demonstration. The input of Hyparxis was useful, and I await others to provide some comments which would be appropriate in guiding me to be particularly alert about what to watch out for, and discern how the effect being demonstrated is being accomplished without any actual paranormal powers.

Here is a video of a guy bending a fork -- would you sign an "affidavit" which states that you witnessed a guy paranormally bend a fork? Hey, there it is, in front of your eyes. Run, do not walk, to a notary and sign on the dotted line.
www.randi.org/images/081304-ForkBend.mpg
 
Webfusion:

Perhaps you should consider arranging for multiple reordings to be made, and then scrutinise the apparent paranormal bits.
 
GzuzKryzt said:
All talk and no play...
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How come? He seemed so confident. While reading the thread, I was really looking forward to his contest. I'm very disappointed in the way this thread ended. How come not even the sceptics came here to make fun of Mr. Pille? That was the least I expected, especially from The Atheist.
 
OXEL said:
How come? He seemed so confident. While reading the thread, I was really looking forward to his contest. I'm very disappointed in the way this thread ended. How come not even the sceptics came here to make fun of Mr. Pille? That was the least I expected, especially from The Atheist.
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People with a so-called paranormal ability wouldn't need to rant and rave about it. They could simply do a few controlled tests and would walk away a millionaire, among other things.

The more they talk, the less likely a test. See: Dowsing by edge.



If you want some good rainy day fun, OXEL, fire up the coffee pot, enter the Million Dollar Challenge forum and sort the thread by number of posts.
Browse the first page of threads - I suggests jumping between threads to increase the fun and train your mind - and you will learn almost everything there is to know about behaviour of would-be applicants.

If you have a sense of humour you will not be deceived. Trust me. :)



(Should you encounter a strong feeling of sadness in light of the revelations in these threads: That's normal. We've all been through that. It's a part of the process. Keep moving.)
 
GzuzKryzt said:
People with a so-called paranormal ability wouldn't need to rant and rave about it. They could simply do a few controlled tests and would walk away a millionaire, among other things.

The more they talk, the less likely a test. See: Dowsing by edge.



If you want some good rainy day fun, OXEL, fire up the coffee pot, enter the Million Dollar Challenge forum and sort the thread by number of posts.
Browse the first page of threads - I suggests jumping between threads to increase the fun and train your mind - and you will learn almost everything there is to know about behaviour of would-be applicants.

If you have a sense of humour you will not be deceived. Trust me. :)



(Should you encounter a strong feeling of sadness in light of the revelations in these threads: That's normal. We've all been through that. It's a part of the process. Keep moving.)
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Thanks!

Sometimes I do use ordering the threads by post count to look up interesting things. But not often. Unfortunatly, this feature is not supported by every forum software. Thanks for bringing that idea back to my mind.
 
Physiotherapist said:
Bump.

Whatever became of this?!!
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Chris was required to line up (on his own) three professional observers who would attest to a substaintial correction spinal allignment using Quantum Touch. He was finding it difficult to get these affadavitts. Had he gotten these in time, he would have been able to do the challenge.
 
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