Looking for challenge

[Crowbot]

What I'm trying to express is that I see value in what you are doing and want that value investigated. Too many times the myterious energies language has led to a dead end and to Caring Touch being dismissed as total nonsense.

I think you meant every single time...ever. And if you thought about that long enough, you might realize that this too shall pass. Or should I say, this too shall fail.

 

[Apathia]

I think you meant every single time...ever. And if you thought about that long enough, you might realize that this too shall pass. Or should I say, this too shall fail.

As I see it Chris has a chance of doing the Challenge (Most haven't gotten that far) if
1. He sticks to a specific effect to be demostrated as opposed to a far reaching claim, such as "People can be healed with energy."

2. The demonstration isn't an attempt to detect or show some kind of "healing energy."

3. The JREF determines that what he claims to do is extraordinary enough to come under the "paranormal" catagory. There's good chance at that since it involves experiences very unfamilier to most skeptics.

Determining what would be an extraordinary straightening of the spine as opposed to what a physical and massage therapist wouldn't find ordinary to known Physiology is likely to be difficult. Certainly this would be to be demonstrated on more than just two or three subjects and they with varying degrees of causes of scoliosis. So I see a mess. Also a factor of judgement. One expert might think a case was pretty extraordinary, while another ordinary.
Now of course if all the subjects have extreme, congenital cases, my opinion is that there will be a small margin of improvement after the session but no permenant cure, and therefore no win.
The Challenge after all is looking for something on the order of a miracle cure that works consistantly. (As if there could be something of that sort by definition.)

So Crowbot, my own opinion is that the prognosis isn't good, but the attempt, if not with the JREF some skeptics as opposed to believer mind-sets, would be educational, and would help set some boundaries around claims, rather than merely dismissing them so that they can say they were ignored.
Failure has its charms.
And of course, if Chris demonstrates the extraordinary to the extent that judges give him the prize, then I adjust my thinking.

Another thing about this is that in my opinion the JREF Challenge isn't an arm of scientific investigation. It's a challenge to fraudsters for the sake of consumer advocacy and education. At best if Chris won the Challenge it would encourage genuine research.

But the Nostrildumas in me is predicting this won't get as far as the JREF Challenge but get wrecked upon the usual shoals of disagreement as to what would constitute a test agreed upon by all parties. And anyway the JREF is soon to reserve the Challenge for those making the big time claims in the media.

So Chris, try. If the JREF isn't game, try other skeptic organizations. And also deveop a practice, do your stuff, and get some attention from medical investigators.

 

[webfusion]

Wow, I see that this thread is really going ahead full-steam. Excellent.

Now of course if all the subjects have extreme, congenital cases, my opinion is that there will be a small margin of improvement after the session but no permenant cure, and therefore no win.

Check. Since I have been granted the luxury of reading the claim itself, I can say that the use of subjects who have "extreme, congenital cases" is not an element contained in the proposed test. The demonstration which I was planning to witness was mentioned by Chris to take place on a fellow who had a hip injury 40 years ago. For sure that's not congenital, and there's no mention in his claim of a 'cure'.

Determining what would be an extraordinary straightening of the spine as opposed to what a physical and massage therapist wouldn't find ordinary to known Physiology is likely to be difficult.

Check. He maintains that a 'qualified independent observer' is to measure the spine before and after using the standard Cobb angle. The main reason I started balking at making a direct observation of this effect, was a} I'm not a qualified observer and b} the cobb angle seems to be something only visible on radiological scans (xrays) ----
Hey, I just don't know, as a layman, how to differentiate a cobb angle from a corn cob.
Although, as you can see by reading the thread, Christopher indicated to me that these two things are not very critical in making an initial "quickie" observation for the purpose of an affidavit which we were trying to arrange, and he felt that I could make a determination of the change just by looking, or tracing, the spine before and after his technique.

Ok, I will continue to sit on the sidelines and keep making cogent comments, while not actually posting the contents of the claim itself.
To be sure, a herculean effort, but I promised!

 

[GzuzKryzt]

...
Ok, I will continue to sit on the sidelines and keep making cogent comments, while not actually posting the contents of the claim itself.
To be sure, a herculean effort, but I promised!

As a part-time used car salesman, you should be good at "making cogent comments, while not actually [referring to] the [actual state] of the [car] itself"., shouldn't you?

 

[webfusion]

As a part-time used car salesman, you should be good at "making cogent comments, while not actually [referring to] the [actual state] of the [car] itself"., shouldn't you?

Absolutely! Which is why the discussion here has moved forward so well, as we pretty much went past the point of being in the dark completely, to actually understanding what the claim is! I'm quote proud of myself, in accomplishing that aim. (^^ web pats himself on the back ^^)

The exchange between Hyparxis and Chris was very informative, and brought this thread to a whole new level. We owe him (her) a debt of gratitude also, for adding those 2¢ worth of details and explanations.

Now, here's one thing that was bugging me ----- The Athiest, who comes along here as a huge proponent of EA Challenge, makes the following comment:

"If you think you genuinely have a paranormal ability - see a psychologist."

I'm perplexed by that expression, coming from a guy who is publicly talking about a $25-Million Paranormal Challenge.
You can't have it both ways, TA.
Yes, for skeptics it is outwardly ridiculous and bizarre for people to make claims of the paranormal, but your 'laughing dog' and general attitude we've seen here is a far cry from the calm and deliberate method of bringing forward claimants to be tested and exposed within the bounds of the Challenge, under rigourous double-blind conditions.
Look, everyone is pretty much convinced that Randi's $1-million is safe in the bank vault, but I don't see Randi posting the laughing dog. It's not his style.
Why is it yours?

 

[Macoy]

I'm just curious as to how "running a crystal up and down the back" can warm up a gel-like sheath unless it generates a lot of friction.

 

[The Atheist]

Look, everyone is pretty much convinced that Randi's $1-million is safe in the bank vault, but I don't see Randi posting the laughing dog. It's not his style.
Why is it yours?

Because I'd rather ridicule the ridiculous than pander to it. As I stated before, whatever particular brand of bollocks Chris is talking about, he's promoting "psychic medicine" in some form or other. Witch doctors also practice "psychic medicine".

These people are dangerous. Children have died recently in this country because their parents have tried "psychic medicine" instead of actual medical doctors and surgeons. In one particular case, a beautiful four year old boy died because his parents accepted a "psychic healer" using an "energy transmitter" to cure his completely curable cancer [with the use of established medical science]. The "energy transmitter", when evaluated turned out to be an AA battery charger.

If I weren't laughing insanely at these people, I would have my very large hands around their scrawny necks and I'd be currently inside Paremoremo Maximum Security Prison instead of typing here on the internet. People claiming to heal by psychic means disgust me.

That's why.

Further, if a "paranormalist" of any description cannot take some fairly gentle abuse in a forum room, what chance they are going to be able to perform their "paranormal" skills in a testing enironment? Would you humour Benny Hinn if he posted here? I certainly would not. If people are prepared to make absurd claims which fly in the face of accepted science and medical technology which has been slowly developed and improved over centuries, then they can be prepared to face a little ridicule and abuse - they're going to cop a lot more when they fail the testing as they most assuredly will.

There is another side to my vilification, too. If I come up to these people and [metaphorically] spit in their faces, it tends to raise their ire. I hope to raise their ire to a stage where they actually step forward and take a test, instead of behaving like Chris - coming in here with a ridiculous posture of "I can't let on what it is, in case someone copies me". Please. Nobody's claimed the Randi million in over 30 years, yet people are going to copy Chris? Yeah, right.

These people ask to be ridiculed. I oblige.

Also, how does putting out a discussion starter on a $25M challenge have any bearing on this, or any other, case? It was just that - a discussion thread. In the case of the EA million, I put my money where my mouth is. If Chris and others wish to dispute its credibility, that's their problem, just as all of the people who dispute the JREF despite money are actually just showing their own lack of guts.

 

[Apathia]

I'm just curious as to how "running a crystal up and down the back" can warm up a gel-like sheath unless it generates a lot of friction.

It had nothing to do with the crystal as such. It's simply a matter of where attention was drawn in the body. Bloodflow will increase anywhere you settle your focus on your body, moreso when your attention is centered there. Increased blood flow brings heat and hormones. Fascia expands and muscles contract.
The so-called "energy" therapies induce a receptive state of mind in the client such that where the paractitinor touches or otherwise indicates her focus on the client's body, the body's attention is drawn there, even if the client is asleep. This effect has had many names over the years, on eof the first was "Animal Magnetism." Nothing to do with magnets and electromagnetic energy ay all. But yes it is realted to a mild hypnotic state. Subjectivity and suggestion are certainly a part of the mix.

Crystals have no healing power. At most they can be used as props for an imaginative session, but my own frame of mind these days is to tell the client outright that the effects comes from their own body not some mysterious crystal energy.

So you see I've become I rotten Reiki master, because in my opinion the word "reiki" stands for someting only metaphorical. The reality that takes place in the session isn't something supernatural.
I don't have a fixed Philosophy thta says the supernatural is impossible, I just haven't had an experince with Reiki and the like that could only be explained by something supernatural.

So forget the crystals, please.

 

[Christopher Pille]

As I stated before, whatever particular brand of bollocks Chris is talking about, he's promoting "psychic medicine" in some form or other. Witch doctors also practice "psychic medicine".

These people are dangerous. Children have died recently in this country because their parents have tried "psychic medicine" instead of actual medical doctors and surgeons. In one particular case, a beautiful four year old boy died because his parents accepted a "psychic healer" using an "energy transmitter" to cure his completely curable cancer [with the use of established medical science]. The "energy transmitter", when evaluated turned out to be an AA battery charger.

A mindset of ignorance is always dangerous.

There are those of us who know when to use what type of treatment. I have not needed treatment from a traditional doctor in years. But when my dentist said I needed my wisdom teeth out, I gladly went under the knife.

 

[Macoy]

So, as people can persuade others through creating "a mild hypnotic state" to control the blood flow through certain areas of their body, one might assume that it was possible for someone to use a self-hypnotic technique to achieve the same ends.

It seems to me that Chris is worried that a self-healing technique might be developed before he has got his head around what seems like a possible scam.

 

[Apathia]

So, as people can persuade others through creating "a mild hypnotic state" to control the blood flow through certain areas of their body, one might assume that it was possible for someone to use a self-hypnotic technique to achieve the same ends.

It seems to me that Chris is worried that a self-healing technique might be developed before he has got his head around what seems like a possible scam.

It's not merely a mild hypnotic state involved, but that's an important piece.
A number of years ago I did the kidney stones ordeal. The doctor prescribed a high power pain killer that would have me walking around in a semi-zombie state.
I chose to go it with Advil (Over the counter pain killer) and Reiki. Yes, I could do self-Reiki and get some results, but it was much more effective when another Reiki person gave it to me. There is a human touch dynamic in this that can't be ignored, and is indeed one of the reasons people turn to hands on therapies when the hospital and their HMO are regarding them as statistics.

I wouldn't say Chris was trying to develop a scam. It may be that he didn't come right out and say in the forum what it was he does because others who practice "Energy Healing" whould see right away that doing the challenge with scoliosis would be a pretty good way to show some results. So, why let someone else get the scoop. It's more likely he didn't want to say the "E" word. E as in Energy. One of the biggest red flags you can raise on a skeptic board.

Yes, raising a red flag will get some bullish responses. I'd like to see more tact, but I have no criticism of the feelings of anger. I have no tolerance for claims that Energy Healing is an alternative to medical attention and treatments. The people who make that claim are if not just flaky, repugnant.

People tend to be stupid in procrastenating seeing a doctor when something's amiss. They'll take some painkillers, or in some cases see a "healer" who takes away the symptom for a while and let a condition worsen. People need to be encouraged that the medical practitoner, not the local "healer" is the first person to see!
Any sort of practitioner who doesn't ask right away if you've seen a doctor and tells you you must see a doctor first before she will do any work, is a bozoid if not a con. That's all you need to know to tell the rest of the community to shun that whatever.

I'm about to say something harsh (considering my background). And I need to agknoledge that Chris says he's not using Reiki for the Challenge.
The greater majority of Reiki practioners make claims about Reiki such that you'd just as well ignore anyone who says they do Reiki. Yes, I know exceptions. I know ethical practioners. But the most of them, intentionally or not, are misleading and scamming people. You can know right away something is crooked when a practioner wants to charge you exorbitently for an "energy" that is said to be the "life energy" we all share.

 

[webfusion]

The Athiest remarks:

"Because I'd rather ridicule the ridiculous than pander to it. People claiming to heal by psychic means disgust me."

OIC.
I am sure that James Randi also is not thrilled with their practice.
Yet, his approach is 180-degrees the opposite of yours.

In fact, it is precisely because he wishes to more vigorously pursue these outright charlatans and frauds that he is considering Changes to the Challenge.

Ridiculing the Applicants is normal in these threads, to a point. I myself have done my fair share, in various other instances. I even started to express my ridicule early on in this very thread.


You came along here, and Challenged this JREF Applicant to get in touch with you, in order to Apply for the EA. The response you got may illustrate a flaw in your approach to getting people to take you seriously -----
Christopher immediately revealed what he thinks of your attitude:
"Great! I will take you up on your offer eventually. Since you are the most vitriolic and least credible, I will save you for last."

So, rather than bring to bear any influence which a Challenge might have, in the facilitation of running a full test process to expose the lack of abilities regarding 'psychic healers' or any other paranormal claim, you get to sit there and post laughing dogs.

Your rationale?
"I hope to raise their ire to a stage where they actually step forward and take a test."

I am not quite sure this is the correct approach to take, but hey, it's your call.

 

[Macoy]

I become more relaxed when a sexual partner rubs my back . Perhaps Chris has found a legal loophole that will allow reiki healers to open legal brothels, and is worried that they will earn $1M before him.

 

[Christopher Pille]

Yes. Please keep it on the down-low.

On a side note, the Taoist 'microcosmic circulation' can do great things for your sex life.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780062513366&itm=3

 

[Macoy]

Is it really a "side note", though, to your challenge?

 

[The Atheist]

I am sure that James Randi also is not thrilled with their practice.

Yet, his approach is 180-degrees the opposite of yours.

Different people do things different ways, otherwise we'd all be clones, I think.

I am, in real life, as in here, an outspoken, forthright person who will not stand idly by and listen to, or read, bulls**t. Put up or shut up is my way. Even then, if someone is honest regarding their claims from the start, like a young pommy chick a while back - she claimed to be able to find people using an A-Z, but failed the preliminary - I will at least treat them with some respect. Ditto the "Nice Jewish Psychic Lady". I didn't go abusing the snot out of her, unlike many. I think I may have taken part in laughing at those who did, sure. She said what she could do, then took off before having shown us.

Chris is bulls**tter, pure and simple, which is why I suggested a couple of other occupations for him to consider where BS artists do extremely well. Jeez, I'm telling you! You're a used car salesman for christ's sake! I actually think Chris thinks he's so smart that he has a chance of conning JREF out of the cheque. From what I've seen of "paranormalists", they are always very happy to own up to what they can do - that's the name of the game. Pretty hard to get people to accept you as an ectoplasmist if people don't know what one is or that you are one. That's why he's been so very vague from the start - he's desperately trying to check whether he's found a loophole in the rules, or whether he's just conning himself (the latter, Chris).

Then, when I see people pandering to these "paranormalists", I get a bit righteous - why? Because we all know that everything they say can be broken down into a one-syllable word: crap.

I'd far prefer people to be thinking about things that are genuinely proven to help mankind grow, like medicine, science, charity and humility (yes, I can do that when I'm not on my high horse!) Nearing 50 years of age, there's nothing new in the paranormal world for me. Every single type of paranormal claim has long ago been examined and discarded as superstitious claptrap. That's precisely why I and a few friends are prepared to put our money and/or time up; to get these clowns to put up or shut up and I go at it by challenging them openly, calling them for the frauds and charlatans that they are. I like to skate just this side of libel when dealing with them and one day, when I have the time and money, I'll test the real libel laws with a couple of them as well. If that isn't a popular view, I really don't care, my tolerance level for fools is zero.

Science , however, continues to astound me, and I hope it always does.

In fact, it is precisely because he wishes to more vigorously pursue these outright charlatans and frauds that he is considering Changes to the Challenge.

And bloody good show, too! You wouldn't get me to disagree with a policy of outright pursuit of them!James has the profile and reputation to make it happen, I hope he manages to get in their faces and fight them. The JREF has a very low public profile and any attempt to change that is great news.

Ridiculing the Applicants is normal in these threads, to a point. I myself have done my fair share, in various other instances. I even started to express my ridicule early on in this very thread.


You came along here, and Challenged this JREF Applicant to get in touch with you, in order to Apply for the EA. The response you got may illustrate a flaw in your approach to getting people to take you seriously -----
Christopher immediately revealed what he thinks of your attitude:

Yeah, right. Sorry, mate, but if you were the applicant and a MILLION BUCKS was at stake that you'd maybe find out a few details first? As a few people have shown already, my e mail address isn't hard to find and Chris hasn't bothered contacting me yet. I suggest that who is going to put up the million is by far the least of Chris' problems. To try and cover that up when I make a direct approach just confirms that not also is he out of his depth, he also has no cojones.

"Great! I will take you up on your offer eventually. Since you are the most vitriolic and least credible, I will save you for last."

BRING IT ONNNNN!! Ever manage to watch Lennox Lewis vs David Tua, Chris? Tua thought he was a credible challenger. He went home a broken and chastened man, exactly as you are about to be.

So, rather than bring to bear any influence which a Challenge might have, in the facilitation of running a full test process to expose the lack of abilities regarding 'psychic healers' or any other paranormal claim, you get to sit there and post laughing dogs.

Mate, did you read that after you posted it? If you think, for even a split-second that Chris is going to take any kind of independent test, you're as crazy as he is. Guys like him NEVER put up.

But they never stop talking. He'll whine, he'll cry "foul", he'll call bias, he'll call credibility - hell, he already has! Mine!

 

[The Atheist]

I become more relaxed when a sexual partner rubs my back . Perhaps Chris has found a legal loophole that will allow reiki healers to open legal brothels, and is worried that they will earn $1M before him.

Mate! You've saved the day!

This thread was in danger of becoming the most boring challenge story of the 21st century. It's now immortal, thanks to that single comment.

(If you can come up with stuff like that, could you please post more often!)

 

[Macoy]

Thanks, AT. As a devout and categorical agnostic, I feel an urge to enjoy the ridiculous.

 

[Apathia]

Is it really a "side note", though, to your challenge?

It is. It's not the same thing. Our culture, though is very up tight about touch. You get caring touch as a child, but as an adult generaly only in the context of your sex life.
Massage Theapists (the ones who are doing it for therapy as opposed to "recreation") learn the different qualities of touch and ethical boundaries.
Now I don't really know much about Chris's training and background, but I do have some in Massage Therapy training and background, so some sensitivity to the topic. Just to assert for the sake of those in the profession, Massage Therapy does not equal sexual attention. And what Chris is doing is not sexual in nature.

There is of course, "Sensual Massage" for lovers, with Benifits of its own not to be confused with Therapy, thank you.

I don't feel insulted. I just wanted to point out the distinction. This kind of Bevis and Buthead response comes up every time this subject is raised.
But it can't be helped.
By all means "enjoy the ridiculous."

 

[webfusion]

The Atheist ignores the previous efforts I have made already in this case:

If you think, for even a split-second that Chris is going to take any kind of independent test, you're as crazy as he is.

In post # 27, The Atheist seemed pleased that I was going to make an effort to witness the demonstration. The Atheist seemed pleased that I would take the initiative to pursue this with Christopher directly. The Atheist keeps saying that he wants his own EA Challenge to be pursued...

Yet, The Atheist certainly seems to be the one here now disparaging all that, because it's all 'crap'


So, why are you here? What is your goal? To post laughing dogs and talk talk talk about your great and lofty EA Challenge?
You insist:
That's precisely why I and a few friends are prepared to put our money and/or time up...

No T.A., I doubt that you will.
Indeed, from the way you've approached this, I also personally have some questions about your credibility.

When you "put up" and show us something tangible, then I may change my opinion. Right now, you are merely bluster and bluff --- without a single woo that cares a whit about approaching you. Why is that? Because you are not being skeptical -- you already have clearly stated;
"Every single type of paranormal claim has long ago been examined and discarded as superstitious claptrap." which leaves you pretty much without a leg to stand on regarding accepting any claims. On what basis will you accept claims to test? Will you really accept any? I think not.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65214

From your website:
Challenge opened 11th March 2006
Number of challengers to 16/9/06 NIL (zero)

and the Don Murray exchange is your only "bit of fame" ----

Wow.