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Looking for challenge

Plastictowel said:
Why is JR backing down?
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He isn't.

Randi merely told me that I just shouldn't get involved (nor any other Forum members).

JR wrote to me:
"Forum members have no participation in the JREF challenge; appealing to them is not useful."

also ----

"Mr. Pille will apply in the stated manner.
There are no affidavits required of Mr. Pille, who is the would-be applicant."
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That is the essence of the message from James Randi to me last night.
If he wishes to post the entire eMail here, that is up to him, but the above is the main message, for the record.
 
I'd take that to mean simply that reputation on the JREF message boards will not improve your affidavit-worthiness.

And hopefully not depreciate it either. Were webfusion an accredited physicist I'd think his affidavit would be accepted for phenomena related to that area, despite his participation on the message boards.
 
Based on what webfusion has told me of the contents of Mr. Randi's message, the problem seems to be a simple case of the JREF never having received my application.

Here is my response to webfusion. He can let you know if I have modified anything.

I mailed my application 9/06/06, hours after getting it notarized. I still have two receipts from the notary but I did not think to save the receipt from the post office. I think it was sent USPS Priority Mail.

I included my return address on the envelope and have not received it back in the mail so I assumed it was delivered correctly. I have not heard from the JREF anything about whether they received my application or not, though I did ask.

If it was lost in the mail, I can get another one notarized and sent soon. I have spare copies of my application in which the notary's stamp and handwriting are visible, but I would think the JREF would want an original on which the depression of the notary's seal can be detected.

If you don't mind, please inform Mr. Randi of this.

Christopher
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I will assume that Mr. Randi's statement that no affidavits are required of me is simply because they have not received my application, and that they will be required once I am in the process. I am tempted to take it to mean that once my application is in, no affidavits are required and I can be scheduled for a preliminary test ASAP, which would be nice but I would not expect.

I will try to find a witness with medical credibility and proceed with the demonstration I suggested to webfusion. Even if the results are not acknowledged in the application process, I can post them here (hopefully with before/after pictures and a statement by the witness) to entertain the members of this forum. :D
 
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Christopher Pille said:
I will assume that Mr. Randi's statement that no affidavits are required of me is simply because they have not received my application, and that they will be required once I am in the process.
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It could simply mean that they are seeking medical opinion about your claim before accepting your application.
 
Plastictowel said:
Why is JR backing down?
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If you'd bothered getting to know about Mr. Randi through his various writings, interviews, and TV appearances, you'd know that he isn't "backing down."

Like most of us here, Mr. Randi does not suffer fools gladly, so do not expect him, or any of us, to participate in your folie.

If you or anyone is applying to prove paranormal ability, you'd better have the goods, for your claims will be examined with utmost scrutiny -- a scrutiny that will not allow any subterfuge.

The results will be transparent, so prepare to reveal your all to the world.

M.
 
Christopher Pille notes:
Based on what webfusion has told me of the contents of Mr. Randi's message, the problem seems to be a simple case of the JREF never having received my application.
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That seems to be true.

You may wish to contact the Challenge Administrator again.
Jeff Wagg has made his replies directly to you in the past, and there is every reason to anticipate him continuing to do so.
Randi does not handle the Applications or the Protocol process by himself, and only made a reply to me in regards to my question about witnessing your demonstration. He told me not to get involved with verifying your claim, and I'll adhere to his wishes.

On another note ------
You wrote an Email to me saying that the "cat is out of the bag" Chris, but that is not entirely factual.
I have only hinted at your claim. You are welcome to post the entire Application letter here, so that everyone can see precisely what you intend to do for the Million $$$.
I recall it was Ririon who asked : "Pretty please with sugar on top."
 
Yes, it is great to have such a lucid applicant for a change!

My step daughter had scoliosis with a large angle, and the surgery to correct it was invasive to the extreme. Though she seems to have benefited in the long run.

How wonderful it would be to find a non-surgical treatment.
 
I will prepare another application and send it this weekend. I will ask Mr. Wagg to inform me when it is received.

When I am a tad further through the process, I will post my claim in its entirety.
 
How about sending it as "Registered Mail"? You would receive a note when your letter actually arrived.

At least, in Germany it works that way.
 
webfusion said:
Chillzero, a demonstration was already (provisionally) arranged and the subject is willing to have the healing procedure performed, so I see no reason for the subject to refrain from going ahead, even without my presence. How do you propose to 'protect' anyone from seeing the 'wellness expert' of their choice?
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Moochie said:
Exactly. Posters to this forum are in no way responsible for what transpires between two consenting adults. :D

M.
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I understand that.
I was just concerned because I read it like this:
A monitored demonstration, including a person with proper medical expertise present, had been arranged. Mr Randi contacted you with concerns about the demonstration and asked you not to participate - usually he is concerned most when a person's health or wellbeing may be at risk. You then state that the applicant should go ahead and manipulate a man's very deformed spine - without the previously agreed witnesses, so potentially without a medical attendant who would know how much a spine can or cannot be manipulated without harm.

Therefore I think it's ok for me to be a little concerned, but if I misread it, that's fine. Don't wish to derail further.
 
yes, you misread it ---

chillzero said:
I understand that.
I was just concerned because I read it like this:
A monitored demonstration, including a person with proper medical expertise present, had been arranged. Mr Randi contacted you with concerns about the demonstration and asked you not to participate - usually he is concerned most when a person's health or wellbeing may be at risk. You then state that the applicant should go ahead and manipulate a man's very deformed spine - without the previously agreed witnesses, so potentially without a medical attendant who would know how much a spine can or cannot be manipulated without harm.

Therefore I think it's ok for me to be a little concerned, but if I misread it, that's fine. Don't wish to derail further.
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Where did you read that a medical specialist would be present?
See my post # 31
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1990682&postcount=31
My presence as a witness was declared to be as a layman; as just someone who happened to live nearby to the person "looking for challenge" and the only reason I provided for wishing to see his paranormal demonstration was to help Mr Pille in his pursuit of affidavits. At first, I had no idea what his "power" was at all, and had not seen his claim.

In posts #8 and #12 of the thread, I indicated that there are doubts as to the veracity of his OP statements, primary among them that he is even an actual Applicant. A little further on, Ririon noted that a certain "Chris Pille" is a Reiki holistic practitioner at a college 10 minutes from my home. This was confirmed as being the very person who is interested in pursuing the JREF Million $$$, as well as other monetary Challenges for demonstrating the paranormal.

Still, no definition of the claimed powers. Several of the forum members tried to get Chris to reveal the claim.

I suggested to Chris, here on the forum, and in a direct eMail, that because I am a JREF Forum participant in good standing and have a loose relationship with other particpants in this geographic area, that we (I) may be able to observe what he is proposing to prove as a paranormal power, and that by our (my) doing so, it could bolster the Application to JREF. See: Post # 26 of this thread

Only at that point, did Christopher Pille agree to forward to me all the ongoing correspondence between himself and the JREF Challenge Administrator. He agreed to give me an 'inside look' at his claim, because I provided very specific and detailed assurances:
Read My Post # 31
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1990682&postcount=31

Specifically, I mention "It must be emphasized that I am not a representative nor an investigator for the JREF and my only purpose is to act in the capacity of a private skeptical individual who is willing to be shown evidence of the paranormal."

There is nothing at all about any "medical expertise" mentioned -- in fact, I have actually indicated here that I'm a part-time Used Car Salesman (FWIW).

Christopher Pille's verbatim "notarized Application" was part of these eMails I subsequently received (not a scan of an actual document, just the text) and this was the first opportunity I had to see what the 'powers' consisted of.

Now, to the substance of Chillzero's concerns --------

Christopher Pille says he can do what he claims, he indicates that it is a "simple" demonstration, and in his email to me, he's said that it's a method he has imparted successfully on another subject in the past.

I agree that there is a possibility of a forceful physical procedure affecting the alignment of the spinal column causing more harm than good. However, in this case, Christopher has outlined (in his claim Application, which is still in limbo) a procedure involving no force and he merely will apply his hands gently to different areas of their back.

It's as if he just lets the 'energy' flow and the spine melts into proper shape.
Which is paranormal. Not in the realm of known medical expertise.

And worth the JREF Million, no?

So, let's stand by, and see what protocols are developed, if any.
As I said already:
"How do you propose to 'protect' anyone from seeing the 'wellness expert' of their choice?"
 
webfusion said:
I agree that there is a possibility of a forceful physical procedure affecting the alignment of the spinal column causing more harm than good. However, in this case, Christopher has outlined (in his claim Application, which is still in limbo) a procedure involving no force and he merely will apply his hands gently to different areas of their back.

It's as if he just lets the 'energy' flow and the spine melts into proper shape.
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That's fine - that's all that concerned me really. I had no confirmation as to the use of force or not, and Randi's reluctance rang my alarm bells.

Sorry for the misinterpretation (I didn't think you were the medical expert, but thought one would be present - not sure where I got the idea!).
 
chillzero said:
That's fine - that's all that concerned me really. I had no confirmation as to the use of force or not, and Randi's reluctance rang my alarm bells.

Sorry for the misinterpretation (I didn't think you were the medical expert, but thought one would be present - not sure where I got the idea!).
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No problem, I know that everyone here is frustrated in not seeing the process unfold in a way that makes it easier to follow on the Forums.

I think Randi in general disapproves of the direct involvement of Forum members in the Challenge. I now seem to recall KRAMER and Randi making this a rule for previous Challenge Applicants ----- looking back, it was in regards to 'JAK' Keeran
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1149874&postcount=13
Although in that case, it was stated "We are not in favor of using the JREF forums for locating test subjects." and in the current case, Randi just doesn't want Forum participants to be "appealed to" because it isn't useful.

You may be right, the actual detrimental effect of spinal manipulation could be JR's primary concern. I just think he was trying to avoid a situation where Forum members become 'authorities' in the actual Challenge process, and he loses control of what is being done "in JREF's name" (as a legal and technical matter).

I am sorry, by the way, for only posting just bits and pieces of what I know, and not providing the Big Picture. That is how it was agreed between myself and Christopher, so absent any direct input from Randi or Jeff Wagg in the Application section, this situation will remain somewhat confusing to all concerned.

NOTE TO JEFF:
Hey, c'mon, get this "Unbending A Spine" Application into the light of the day!
 
P-S This thread is now on top and the "Sally Proof of God" thread is not, so any post by Sally now will be done just to bump, according to the definition she herself provided! If nobody posts again to that dead thread, it will drift away into obscurity, where it belongs...
 
webfusion said:
I agree that there is a possibility of a forceful physical procedure affecting the alignment of the spinal column causing more harm than good. However, in this case, Christopher has outlined (in his claim Application, which is still in limbo) a procedure involving no force and he merely will apply his hands gently to different areas of their back.

It's as if he just lets the 'energy' flow and the spine melts into proper shape.
Which is paranormal. Not in the realm of known medical expertise.

And worth the JREF Million, no?
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Are we talking a congenital, skeletal spinal deformation here? If so, this would certainly be very interesting. If it's not on the major scale, I can understand in part why Chris wasn't keen on saying just what his challenge item is, because there are massage therapists across the country who can do this including myself. Straightening out spines that are held crooked by muscles is a common result of a wide variety of massage therapies, even one's not directly focused on the spine. And yes, gentle touch and even Reiki can effect an realignment in most ordinary cases.

Allow me to explain. Hundreds of muscles are attached to the vetebrae of spine, each anchored and exerting force in their contractions and relaaxations. Together the hold spinal system in place, but they can also pull it one way or the other. All of these muscles are surronded by a sheath called the fascia. The fascia holds the shape of a muscle and the extent of it's expansions and contractions. Fascia isn't like a hard bark but more like a gell. Warm it up with blood circulation and it softens. When it softens, the muscle tends more to its natural shape. Any tuggging a muscle is makiing on a bone it's attached to due to a held contraction is released.
This kind of pulling and tugging on bones by contracted muscles happens all the time due to stress or holding patterns related to injuries. Even when a person has held a muscle induced misallignment for a long period of time, dramatic shifts can be seen in a session by a massage therapist, especially when the thearpist's expertise is Orthopedic Massage.

I studied at and wound up becoming the registrar at a school of Massage Thearpy and found this commonplace. Missaligned vertebra and spines out of allignment due to muscular effects very simply respond to attention. Even Reiki attention. Even running a crystal up and down the back in thev process of a Reiki session. How is this? Muscles relax, blood brings warmth to the fascia causing it to become more gell like. The muscle is no longer in its contractive holding patten. Muscles release that extra tug on the vertebra. In some casees the shift is so dramatic that you can see it happening. You can see the straitening. And of course measure it.

Now after the session the client will remarrk how straight his or her back
feels and then return to his or her ordinary way of life, which in most cases tals them back to the stresses or holdings that pulled the spine out of proper allignment to begin with. This is why many Massage Therpists give their clients simple yoga exercises to do to correct the situation long term.

Energy? Yes, common garden variety biochemical reactions.
Paranormal? No. Unless Chris is going to realign a back that is very severly, skeletally deformed with muscles in permenant contraction due to years of inactivity.

If so, go for it Chris! I hope I haven't misprepresented your demostration, but I've experienced ordinary but dramatic changes in the musculoskeletal system that don't involve anything miraculous except the very miracle of ordinary anatomy and physiology.

ANd BTW, I'm a Reiki master myself (big deal), so i'm not unsympathetic to what you do. I'm just hankering to see more for the Challange than what my roomate. a professional Massage Therapist, has done as a matter of course in many sessions, and what I could do myself even, without a paaranormal claim.
 
All that could be accounted for by having someone untrained in energy healing first perform the physical technique I would use on the person, which is just resting my fingertips on either side of their vertebrae one by one.

After the lack of significant change, I could then do my energy technique, and there should be a large difference between the two "treatments".
 
Christopher Pille said:
All that could be accounted for by having someone untrained in energy healing first perform the physical technique I would use on the person, which is just resting my fingertips on either side of their vertebrae one by one.

After the lack of significant change, I could then do my energy technique, and there should be a large difference between the two "treatments".
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Then you are using an "energy technique?"
Given just what you have described, I could easily do what you are proposing for the Challenge. Where I wouldn't expect to be effectual is in cases where there is an inherited spinal deformity, Skeletal deformity, or muscles that have completly wasted away from years of inactivity.
If you are going to demonstrate with such extream cases, then what you propose is certainly game for the Challenge and encourage you to do it if possible.
Dramatic and unexpected stuff sometimes happens in Body Work, so I wish you very interesting results.
 
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