Logical? Deism.

[CWL]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your very next post. "An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future." is a pretty good one coming from a fatalist....

Agreed. Interesting statement indeed. Perhaps it is time to revive this classic thread...

 

[Franko]

whitefork:
You can always say "I don't know what free will or free choice means but I can cause things to occur and prevent things from occurring, or I can do nothing. What more do you want?"

Kind of the “take my word for it” “Proof” of Atheism, whitefork?

What more do you want?"

How about the EXACT SAME THING you would ask of a Christian or any other religious person … Evidence and Logic which supports YOUR CLAIM! What exactly is making the “choices”? Aren’t “YOU” (people) just your physical brain? … and isn’t your physical brain simply made of atoms (chemicals) obeying the same laws that ALL chemicals obey? How are the chemicals in your brain making “decisions” or “choices” beyond those made by any other chemicals? Are you claiming that the carbon atoms in your physical body obey a different set of rules from those obeyed by other carbon atoms?

What evidence or logical reason do you have for believing that these “choices” are real? Isn’t it a fact, that your “choices” are simple an illusion like the colors red, green, and blue, when the real reality is oscillating photons traveling at the speed of light? Isn’t your “free will” similarly an illusion while the real reality is that you are a puppet completely under the control of Almighty TLOP (The Laws of Physics)???

Please explain your reasoning for believing this? The fact that you have been going sooo far out of your way dodging this question for months and months makes me think that you believe this based solely on wishful thinking and pessimism, or because you simply don’t have enough integrity or intellectual honesty to concede the point.

I see no logical reason why you hold these beliefs, and the issue of What is YOU is essential to your “explanation” for your belief in magical “free willy” powers. How can you claim that “free will” exist when you cannot even explain what is making the “Choice”?!?!

 

[Tricky]

(apologies for reposting, but I like The List to be visible.)
Wow! What a Post by Franko! So many things to learn about that wonderful parsimoneous religion called Logical Deism. Have a look at the posts with the

• [*]red bullets

to see what is new today.

Franko, please correct anything here you feel is an innacurate statement of your beliefs. I promise I will fix it on The List.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
• The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
  [*] After an Eternity of isolation, he was Infinity self-aware, but he had no idea what it would be like to experience individuality, so his Omniscience ended when Individuality began.
  [*] Your soul is a shard of what was once an Omnipotent Solipsist Entity, i.e. The Progenitor Solipsist.
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
• Your actions are controlled by the Logical Goddess, but your perceptions are not.
• The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate and logic.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
• Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
  [*] In the True reality Gravitons are ALL that exists
  [*] When two Gravitons interact they exchange Energy in the form of memes. This entanglement creates a decision junction in SpaceTime.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity.
• Information (i.e. Energy) can be either True or False. The total quantity of information manifest as Mass. The ratio of True information to False information (quality of Mass) manifests as Spin
• Velocity is Speed of Processing (speed of thought, speed of comprehension) and Charge is Quality of Velocity
  [*] Your consciousness is like a fractal. It consist of Two parts, your Algorithm (your Soul, the Velocity of your particle), and your Database (your Graviton, the fractal image itself, the Mass of your particle).
  [*] Two premises make a conclusion and two conclusions become premises which in turn make a new higher level conclusion. The height of your = hierarchy pyramid is your Velocity, the width of your pyramid is your Mass.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
• Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
  The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female.
  [*] The main difference between (males) and the LG, is that (males) don’t have Vaginas, and She doesn’t have a Penis.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
• An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real.
• Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodynamics.
• A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information.
• Gravitons are made of time
• The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them.
• Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections.
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
• At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time.
• Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information.
• The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP
• Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
• MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
• A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.

Miscellaneous/The Lexicon

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
• No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.
• choices are preordained outputs
• In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time.
• Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate.
• Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical.
• Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence.

A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.

 

[billydkid]

Hey Trick, I got you figured out!!!

You want to steal Franko's religion and be the next L. Ron Hubbard!

 

[Tricky]

Re: Hey Trick, I got you figured out!!!

You want to steal Franko's religion and be the next L. Ron Hubbard!

Dang! Busted! How did you figure me out, Billy? I thought it was the perfect crime. And are you related to BillyTK?

 

[wraith]

But no one is saying they can "perceive" no time. They say they can "imagine" no time. You do understand the difference, do you not?

You cant even imagine "no-time"!
Can you imagine a round square?

The same reason the universe came into existence (which evidence suggests was the Big Bang). Once things existed, then time had meaning.

In other words, you appeal to magic?
There is no logic behind the origin of the universe?
Hell, if there was no logic prior to the universe, why have any logic at all?

Do you honestly think that jumble of words makes any sense? And why the heck would you say "sounds like the work of Gravity" any more than you would say "sounds like the work of stellar radiation" or "sounds like the work of leprachauns"? You have failed to establish any sort of connection to gravity.

I thought that gravity and time were related?
I bet that you can even relate it to consciousness
For someone who can imagine "notime", this should be a glass of milk

If consciousness is tied to gravity, then why do not astronauts become unconscious (or at least sluggish) while they are in a place where the effects of gravity are negligible? If you could show that to be true, then I'd call it evidence. Unfortunately for you, we have lots of evidence that this is not the case.

?
I dont get you..

Because it's the only one open. Your "consciousness creates matter" window is locked and boarded. You cannot show a single piece of evidence for the truth of that statement. Why is it you can imagine a disembodied consciousness, but cannot fathom a timeless state?

You have got to kidding me!
For one thing Tricky, for matter to become conscious, would take ONE HELL OF A JUMP to make.

I can imagine a "disembodied" consciousness because I dont believe in a "timeless state" or the pathetic little attempt of explaining the universe through the "matter creates consciousness" window.

Besides, we're perceiving energy in some pattern that we call "matter".

I have lots of evidence for physical brains. I've seen a number of them. There are whole branches of science dedicated to them. I have yet to see a brain made of energy. Please show me one and I'll put some credence in your statement.

Matter does not create consciousness!

We're perceiving energy in some pattern that we call "matter".

Youre thinking of some brain made of some etheral substance or something of that nature, floating around the place

Still buying into Pascal's Wager eh wraith? It is a simple task to debunk it.

debunk what?
It's very simple, God either exists or not. Placing your bets on magic isnt that wise

 

[wraith]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your very next post. "An entity which can perceive the future has the power to change the future." is a pretty good one coming from a fatalist....

What are you saying here?

 

[Tricky]

You cant even imagine "no-time"!
Can you imagine a round square?

Actually I can imagine no time. It is not a logical contradiction like "round square". I am sorry your imagination is so poor.

In other words, you appeal to magic?
There is no logic behind the origin of the universe?
Hell, if there was no logic prior to the universe, why have any logic at all?

Please use my words instead of yours when you describe my beliefs.

Logic, of course, is a human construct for evaluating the consistancy of beliefs. As far as I know, there was no logic prior to the development of the brain. Any logic you extend to times before that is ex post facto.

I thought that gravity and time were related?
I bet that you can even relate it to consciousness
For someone who can imagine "notime", this should be a glass of milk

In a sense, gravity and time are related. Gravity is a result of mass, which (most likely) didn't exist before the Big Bang. Time is related to the sequence of things happening, which (possibly) started when "things" appeared at the Big Bang. In that sense they are related.

However, a statement like "gravitons are made of time" is patently ridiculous. Time has no mass. Gravitons are (if they exist) a consequence of mass.

I dont get you..

I know. It is sad.

You have got to kidding me!
For one thing Tricky, for matter to become conscious, would take ONE HELL OF A JUMP to make.

Yes, if it happened instantaneously, but it is a gradual thing, one for which there is one hell of a lot of evidence. "Consciousness makes Matter", on the other hand, has zero evidence.

I can imagine a "disembodied" consciousness because I dont believe in a "timeless state" or the pathetic little attempt of explaining the universe through the "matter creates consciousness" window.

Yes, I can "imagine" a disembodied consciousness too. It makes for great sci-fi. But show me a single consciousness outside of a body in the real world. Just one. There are billions of consciousnesses within bodies, many of which you can see every day. Now explain how your disembodied consciousness makes sense.

Besides, we're perceiving energy in some pattern that we call "matter".

But it's not really "matter"? What happens if you whack your non-material thumb with a hammer? If behaves in the way as matter is described then it is matter. You can argue how it is really energy until your thumbnail falls off, for all the good that does you.

Youre thinking of some brain made of some etheral substance or something of that nature, floating around the place

Well then, what is this disembodied brain made of? Energy? Well, according to you, so is mine, but mine is tangible. Why does this "universal" brain get a pass on material existence? And how can you tell? It sounds to me like you have imagined it. Perhaps it is made of "Dream Matter".

debunk what?
It's very simple, God either exists or not. Placing your bets on magic isnt that wise

Okay, then define God for me. How about we say that God exists, but it is the Catholic God which punishes people for heresy. In that case, it is the deep fryer for you. You still wanna bet?

 

[wraith]

Actually I can imagine no time. It is not a logical contradiction like "round square". I am sorry your imagination is so poor.

So you can imagine what it's like to be a rock?

Please use my words instead of yours when you describe my beliefs.

If you believe in magic, then I will use words like "magic"

Logic, of course, is a human construct for evaluating the consistancy of beliefs. As far as I know, there was no logic prior to the development of the brain. Any logic you extend to times before that is ex post facto.[/B][/QUOTE]

Oh really?
So everything was completely magical before the formation of the "brain"?

So illogical systems, create logical systems? Yeah thats sounds logical

In a sense, gravity and time are related. Gravity is a result of mass, which (most likely) didn't exist before the Big Bang.

You sure about that?

Time is related to the sequence of things happening, which (possibly) started when "things" appeared at the Big Bang. In that sense they are related.

However, a statement like "gravitons are made of time" is patently ridiculous. Time has no mass. Gravitons are (if they exist) a consequence of mass.

Just what are perceptions without Time Tricky?

You do realise that to imagine a "timeless state" requires Time

Yes, if it happened instantaneously, but it is a gradual thing, one for which there is one hell of a lot of evidence. "Consciousness makes Matter", on the other hand, has zero evidence.

negative. EVEN if you had billions and billions of years, matter would have to make an "infinite jump" to create consciousness

Yes, I can "imagine" a disembodied consciousness too. It makes for great sci-fi. But show me a single consciousness outside of a body in the real world. Just one. There are billions of consciousnesses within bodies, many of which you can see every day. Now explain how your disembodied consciousness makes sense.

As much sense as consciousness perceiving energy as "matter"

But it's not really "matter"? What happens if you whack your non-material thumb with a hammer? If behaves in the way as matter is described then it is matter. You can argue how it is really energy until your thumbnail falls off, for all the good that does you.

I dont think that even you understand what you just said

Well then, what is this disembodied brain made of? Energy? Well, according to you, so is mine, but mine is tangible. Why does this "universal" brain get a pass on material existence? And how can you tell? It sounds to me like you have imagined it. Perhaps it is made of "Dream Matter".

Ive never heard of matter creating energy

Okay, then define God for me. How about we say that God exists, but it is the Catholic God which punishes people for heresy. In that case, it is the deep fryer for you. You still wanna bet?

God is able to generate this universe.

What makes you think that the Catholics perception of God is True? Heresy doesnt adhere to Logic, but sure, Ill bet

 

[Unas]

Ive never heard of matter creating energy

Light a match.

The reactions of the substances in the match head liberate energy from the chemical bonds within those substances.

Perhaps wraith needs a little more experience in the real world before he makes these remarkably ignorant statements. Or perhaps he simply needs to give more thought to his arguments.

 

[Franko]

You want to steal Franko's religion and be the next L. Ron Hubbard!

Well, you see there, Billyjean that is where “Tricky” is Tricking you. He already thinks he is L. Ron Hubbard (he’s just not telling you).

Ever notice how he seems to have a lot of difficulty explaining what SPECIFIC POINT he disagrees with, and the SPECIFIC REASON why he disagrees. I guess he thinks if he just keeps making woo-woo posts somehow (as if by magic) all his troubles are simply going to disappear …

… maybe he can use his magic powers to simply wish his troubles away? He seems to have employed every other dirty “Trick” in the book.

 

[Unas]

...stupid A-Theist troll... your hypocritical little mouth...

Franko's comments are an excellent example of the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad hominem. They are, of course, worthless due to lack of content.

 

[Unas]

He seems to have employed every other dirty “Trick” in the book.

Franko chooses to post another content-free argumentum ad hominem.

 

[Tricky]

So you can imagine what it's like to be a rock?

Yes, I can imagine it. I don't know that my conception would be correct, since I don't normally converse with rocks. That is unless you count my attempts to contact the brains of Logical Deists.

If you believe in magic, then I will use words like "magic"

And if I don't believe in magic, you won't use the words? Very good then. I don't believe in magic. Any claims that I do come from you and you only.

If I claim you believe in astrology, does that make it true? By your thinking, it would. Not by mine.

Oh really?
So everything was completely magical before the formation of the "brain"?

Nope. It was just nature. Nature doesn't give a rat's ass about logic. Logic is a purely human construct. Of course, you can look at what has happened in the past and apply logic to it, for example, you see bones of animals that are no longer extant and logically deduce that they were once alive, but nature itself goes through no such mental gymnastics. Or at least, we have no evidence that it does.

This makes me think of the following scene.
Nature: (soliloquy) Let's see, I could make some more dinosaurs which pretty much live within the confines of what is available, or I could make some humans which will use up the fossil fuel I have been building for ages, destroy the atmosphere which I have been building for ages, and wipe out many of the species which I have been working on for ages. What is my logical choice?

Does that sound like a "logical" entity to you?

You sure about that?

No, I'm not 100% sure about anything. Are you? Do you feel you are incapable of being wrong?

Just what are perceptions without Time Tricky?

They don't exist. The only way there could be a timeless state is if nothing exists. Not matter. Not perceptions. Not gravity. Shall I write this out for you in block letters?

You do realise that to imagine a "timeless state" requires Time

Of course I realise that you must first be able to have something before you can have the absence of something. In order to understand a joyless life, I must know what joy is. In order to understand being broke, I must know what money is. In order to understand Logical Deists, I must know what brains are.

negative. EVEN if you had billions and billions of years, matter would have to make an "infinite jump" to create consciousness

Uh huh. And yet humans can create a consciousness in only nine months from the ordinary materials in their environment. You really have little faith in nature, don't you?

As much sense as consciousness perceiving energy as "matter"

Then show me. I would truly love to know how a disembodied consciousness creates matter. Oh yeah, I have read Franko's creation myth, and even listed it's major points. But to me, it is nonsense. Please resolve the tangle of contradictions and outright prevarication that is the body of Logical Deism. We will all be "eternally" grateful.

I dont think that even you understand what you just said

Well then put it to the test, wraith. I have proposed an experiment for you to test materialism. Why don't you go ahead and try it? If your thumb is only "imagined" then there will be no pain. No, don't ask me to try it. I already believe in materialism. Do you need to borrow a hammer?

Ive never heard of matter creating energy.

And have you ever heard of energy creating matter? You do realize, I hope, that E=MC^2 can also be written as M=E/C^2. If not, I recommend remedial math.

God is able to generate this universe.

Oops. You said "God". Franko will slap your wrist for not saying "Goddess".

If God generates the universe, what generates God? You want to buy a turtle?

What makes you think that the Catholics perception of God is True? Heresy doesnt adhere to Logic, but sure, Ill bet

I don't believe in any perception of God that I have ever heard. You seem to think that if God exists, then it is the God that you have envisioned, yet there are countless different ideas of what God is. If yours is not the right one, then you have lost the wager, because you may be punished for believing the wrong one. The Christian god says that people will not go to heaven unless they accept Christ. Do you believe that? If you don't, and Christians are right about God, then all Hell's gonna break loose when you die.

So which color of "God" are you gonna put your chips on, Maverick? You can't cover every square on the table.

 

[Franko]

So Unac ... avoiding this question?

DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT MATTER CREATES ENERGY??? (ever heard of "thermodynamics"?)

The Wraith:
Ive never heard of matter creating energy [according to pseudo-Materialism]

Unis:
Light a match.

The reactions of the substances in the match head liberate energy from the chemical bonds within those substances.

Perhaps wraith needs a little more experience in the real world before he makes these remarkably ignorant statements. Or perhaps he simply needs to give more thought to his arguments.

all emphasis added – mine.

The Wraith clearly said CREATING which is obviously not the same as LIBERATING unless you are a stupid A-Theist troll in the habit of making remarkably ignorant statements and embarrassing any serious “free-thinking”, “open-minded”, Skeptic misfortunate enough to call himself “Atheist” by quirk of Fate alone. Perhaps you simply need to give more thought before you open your hypocritical little mouth, and remind yourself that this is a SKEPTIC’S forum, NOT Infidels.org (homepage of Atheism).

 

[Unas]

Franko continues to remove and repost the same text. He appears to prefer to do this, rather than conduct an honest discussion.

My original answer to his post stands. Franko is interested solely in hurling invective. Worthwhile debate with such individuals is not possible.

So Unac ... avoiding this question?

DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT MATTER CREATES ENERGY??? (ever heard of "thermodynamics"?)

Note Franko's intellectual dishonesty here. That question was not in his earlier post (which he has since removed). It is therefore not possible that anyone could have "avoided" it.

 

[Tricky]

So tell me Franko. The coinflip comes up heads and there is a God. Unfortunately for you it is the Catholic version of God. What level of Hell do you think you will go to, heretic?

 

[wraith]

Yes, I can imagine it. I don't know that my conception would be correct, since I don't normally converse with rocks. That is unless you count my attempts to contact the brains of Logical Deists.

Oh you can imagine it?
Well, that state of "imagining" what it's like to be a rock requires perceiving time...and I dont think rocks can do that, so try again Twix

And if I don't believe in magic, you won't use the words? Very good then. I don't believe in magic. Any claims that I do come from you and you only.

If you call TLOP popping out from the void willy nilly logical, then youre clearly insane. ANY sane person would call that magical

Nope. It was just nature. Nature doesn't give a rat's ass about logic. Logic is a purely human construct. Of course, you can look at what has happened in the past and apply logic to it, for example, you see bones of animals that are no longer extant and logically deduce that they were once alive, but nature itself goes through no such mental gymnastics. Or at least, we have no evidence that it does.

You know, I wonder what the atheists number 1 fallacy is. Question begging or double standards?

This makes me think of the following scene.
Nature: (soliloquy) Let's see, I could make some more dinosaurs which pretty much live within the confines of what is available, or I could make some humans which will use up the fossil fuel I have been building for ages, destroy the atmosphere which I have been building for ages, and wipe out many of the species which I have been working on for ages. What is my logical choice?

Does that sound like a "logical" entity to you?

An atheist that doesnt want to take responsibility for his actions.

No, I'm not 100% sure about anything. Are you? Do you feel you are incapable of being wrong?

Yes, Yes I do haha
In all seriousness, you have to look to logic.

They don't exist. The only way there could be a timeless state is if nothing exists. Not matter. Not perceptions. Not gravity. Shall I write this out for you in block letters?

If you had no consciousness, then there would be no time. If this was the case, then we wouldnt be having this little discussion.

This universe needs time to function. Before any consciousnesses were around on earth, there would have been "no time".

So just how did the universe form with no time exactly?

wraith says: You do realise that to imagine a "timeless state" requires Time?

Tricky: Of course I realise that you must first be able to have something before you can have the absence of something. In order to understand a joyless life, I must know what joy is. In order to understand being broke, I must know what money is. In order to understand Logical Deists, I must know what brains are.

Was that an answer to my question?

Uh huh. And yet humans can create a consciousness in only nine months from the ordinary materials in their environment. You really have little faith in nature, don't you?

People having children is evidence of matter creating consciousness?

Are you trying to hitch a ride Tricky?

Then show me. I would truly love to know how a disembodied consciousness creates matter. Oh yeah, I have read Franko's creation myth, and even listed it's major points. But to me, it is nonsense. Please resolve the tangle of contradictions and outright prevarication that is the body of Logical Deism. We will all be "eternally" grateful.

Matter is the result of the exchange of energy between two consciousnesses. Is the "matter" in your dreams "real"?

Well then put it to the test, wraith. I have proposed an experiment for you to test materialism. Why don't you go ahead and try it? If your thumb is only "imagined" then there will be no pain. No, don't ask me to try it. I already believe in materialism. Do you need to borrow a hammer?

I dont follow solipsism sorry

And have you ever heard of energy creating matter? You do realize, I hope, that E=MC^2 can also be written as M=E/C^2. If not, I recommend remedial math.

So if you rearrange the equation, so that "M" is on it's own, that now implies that matter creates energy?

While we're at it, lets get "C" on it's own so that we can say C creates mass and energy!

Oops. You said "God". Franko will slap your wrist for not saying "Goddess".

I use the word "God" simply to reprent the "Higher Power".
When I use "God", it doesnt mean that I think that God is a man. God may well be a woman.

Besides, Id rather take orders from a woman haha
You listening Q-Cumber?

If God generates the universe, what generates God? You want to buy a turtle?

The same thing that generates us. Time/Gravity.

I don't believe in any perception of God that I have ever heard. You seem to think that if God exists, then it is the God that you have envisioned, yet there are countless different ideas of what God is. If yours is not the right one, then you have lost the wager, because you may be punished for believing the wrong one. The Christian god says that people will not go to heaven unless they accept Christ. Do you believe that? If you don't, and Christians are right about God, then all Hell's gonna break loose when you die.

Most religions refer to the same God. It's the way that God is perceived that is different. For example, some people may say that God is female while others say the God is male. It's still God that they are referring to. The religion with the most accurate description of God is the one that has the greatest comprehension of logic.

If you ackowledge God, the Soul and that youre responsible for your own actions, then youre "in."

It's really the atheist thats...well...

So which color of "God" are you gonna put your chips on, Maverick? You can't cover every square on the table.

haha I dont need to

 

[wraith]

Light a match.

The reactions of the substances in the match head liberate energy from the chemical bonds within those substances.

Perhaps wraith needs a little more experience in the real world before he makes these remarkably ignorant statements. Or perhaps he simply needs to give more thought to his arguments.

Releasing something is the same as creating something?

 

[Tricky]

Oh you can imagine it?
Well, that state of "imagining" what it's like to be a rock requires perceiving time...and I dont think rocks can do that, so try again Twix

Does it? How do you know what rocks "perceive". Rocks change with time (and heat and pressure). I don't know if they "perceive" it, but you obviously seem to. Give us the benefit of your geological insight, wraith. Rocks have gravity. Do they not also have gravitons?

If you call TLOP popping out from the void willy nilly logical, then youre clearly insane. ANY sane person would call that magical

And you call yourself a "sane" person? Want to go over that list of (magical) LD beliefs again wraith? Let's see how sane you are. Or are you afraid to discuss it? Are you afraid of being caught in the obvious logical fallacies that LD has proposed. I tell you what. I will link all the things that LDeists have said and you link all the things that I have said. We will see who looks the more sane. Come on, lad. I'm an old man. You are young. Show me what you got.

You know, I wonder what the atheists number 1 fallacy is. Question begging or double standards?

Do you even know what "begging the question" means? If so, show me. Then show me where I have done so. I can show you numerous examples of where LDeists have done it. Again, I challenge you. Put up or shut up.

An atheist that doesnt want to take responsibility for his actions.

I take all responsibility for my actions. I challenge you to prove otherwise. Come on, youngster. You can surely come up with at least one quote where I have said I don't take responsibility for my actions. What? No? Surely such a perspicacious lad as yourself wouldn't Lie???!!

Yes, Yes I do haha
In all seriousness, you have to look to logic.

You are 100% sure? Then it should be no problem for you to prove your beliefs. Let's hear you predict who will win the NASCAR race at Atlanta tomorrow. What? Can't do it? What a wuss this goddess of yours is. She can't do a bloody thing! Yet you are "100% sure" she exists. Pardon me if I snicker.

If you had no consciousness, then there would be no time. If this was the case, then we wouldnt be having this little discussion.

This universe needs time to function. Before any consciousnesses were around on earth, there would have been "no time".

So just how did the universe form with no time exactly?

I see you have been ignoring your QM workbook again. Shame shame, wraith. I may have to ground you.

Tell me again how the Progenitor Solipsist came to exist. The familiar fairy tales are always the best.

Matter is the result of the exchange of energy between two consciousnesses. Is the "matter" in your dreams "real"?

There is no "matter" in my dreams. They are imaginary. Sort of like your Logical Goddess. Now explain again how this exchage of energy (Franko says "memes") results in matter. Then explain how this matter is imaginary. Then explain how gravitons are made out of time and memes and gravity and souls and shards of the Progenitor Solipsist. Then explain how they have charge and mass and velocity and spin. Try to do so without violating any known laws of physics. If you can, then I will grant that there is such a thing as magic.

I dont follow solipsism sorry

You don't? I'm afraid you will have to turn in you Logical Deist license then. All LDeists believe in solipsism.

So if you rearrange the equation, so that "M" is on it's own, that now implies that matter creates energy?\

No, you dunderhead. It doesn't imply anything. Matter and energy can be converted to one another in quantities described by the formula. They both exist. What makes you think that one has precidence over the other? To say "all matter is energy" is as stupid as saying "all energy is matter". Lots of things can be converted to other things. Why is this a difficult concept for you?

I use the word "God" simply to reprent the "Higher Power".
When I use "God", it doesnt mean that I think that God is a man. God may well be a woman.

Then you are not a Logical Deist. Logical Deists believe that God is a woman. Franko will be crushed by your defection.

Most religions refer to the same God. It's the way that God is perceived that is different. For example, some people may say that God is female while others say the God is male. It's still God that they are referring to. The religion with the most accurate description of God is the one that has the greatest comprehension of logic.

Completely wrong, wraith. Religions have vastly different concepts of God. If you believe otherwise, then I strongly advise you to take a course in comparitive religion. Are they all right? No, they cannot be for they contradict each other. Which one is most logical? Certainly not Logical Deism. It is a hodgepodge of conflicting statements. Naturalism is probably the closest to conforming to logic. But of course, naturalism is virtually identical to atheism. Sorry, wraith.

If you ackowledge God, the Soul and that youre responsible for your own actions, then youre "in."

Not according to Christianity or Islam or Judaism. Are you saying those religions are wrong about God? You want to flip a coin to see who is correct? My advice is don't bet. There are too many factors to allow for. If you pick the wrong God, you will wind up in hell. The safest bet is to pick none, then you can always say, "but I really liked you best" when faced with the eternal overlord.