Logical? Deism.

[Franko]

Hey anna!

Do you guys ever discuss things nicely, or do you just argue? Do you have fun arguing?

Let me explain what’s going on. Tricky (or Trixy) is a hard-core fanatical militant A-Theist who has dedicated the vast majority of his existence to the cause. For most of his life he has been running around telling people how they are going to cease to exist, and how they are idiots for believing in a “god”. At this point he is so committed there is just no turning back.

Now Trixy, he’s a first class hypocrite. He has one standard of morals that he expects you to live by, but for himself he has a completely different code of “honesty”. You see Trixy will laugh at you, and call You retarded for claiming that there is no “god” with no evidence to back you up. But at the same time he expects You to bow down and kiss his metaphysically superior ass because he believes that he has magic “free will” powers that allow him to defy the Laws of Physics. Of course he has no proof of his magic powers, in fact the evidence is clearly all against him. Never-the-less you are a moron if you do not believe Trixy’s claim about his “wizardry” (at least in his mind). In short, “Tricky’s” trick is an absurd double standard perpetrated at Your expense. (You know that saying about “with friends like that …”?)

Okay, so Trixy can’t refute any of my arguments, I am making him look like a complete and utter fool, and I am seriously interfering with his recruitment drive for the World Church of A-Theism, so he gets offline and organizes a dozen or so of his little A-Theist lackies to follow me around on the forum and basically post a bunch of spam (insults, jokes, off topic crap, sockpuppets galore, silly threads, ask the same contradictory questions over and over, etc., etc.). Then they all whine to the moderators about 8 or 9 times and try and get me banned.

To this day you will notice there are always at least a couple of derogatory threads with my name in them, ALL started by fanatical members of the Cult of A-Theism. It seems that every other week the moderators are forced to move some a-Theist insult thread off to the hidden recesses of the forum.

No … Trixy and his little A-Theists friends aren’t interested in Skepticism at all. They are religious fanatics from the cynical cult of pessimism. Plain and simple. Tricky is the biggest liar on this forum Darling. He has stated in word and demonstrated by deed that he is an individual who believes there will be no ultimate consequences for his actions. If he can benefit by harming you, then by his own logic he will.

I want to hear about some of the stuff on that list. Most of it looks bizarre, but some of it really get's me thinking. Maybe this universe is just one of many universes in the "omniverse". That would explain a lot of things that we can't seem to find the answers to.

It definitely explains a lot.

But Franko, you shouldn't call people retarded. I have a little niece with Downs Syndrome, and it is a tragic and horrible disease. It is not something to make fun of.

I certainly don’t mean to make fun of any innocent. But your “friend” Tricky is either severely mentally impaired, or malevolent. I was merely trying to be optimistic.

If you guys want to talk like civilized human beings, I may join you. If you are just going to call each other names, then forget it.

Which is exactly Trixy’s strategy.

But then again … you already believe in “god” …

 

[annadee]

Yes, Franko, I have seen you and Tricky have had some arguments. (Why do you call him Trixy?). I have noted that many people are not nice to you here and make fun of you. But I think this is your chance to show that you are bigger than they are by ignoring their insults and being above name-calling.

I am really interested in some of your ideas, particularly the omniverse. Do you see it something like Christians see heaven? Is it a place where souls go? Do we ever see it here on Earth? Does it have time the same way we do here? Can we contact beings in the Omniverse?

There's a lot more I want to know, but this will do for a starter.

 

[Franko]

annadee:
I am really interested in some of your ideas, particularly the omniverse. Do you see it something like Christians see heaven? Is it a place where souls go? Do we ever see it here on Earth? Does it have time the same way we do here? Can we contact beings in the Omniverse?

Unfortunately I am running short on Time at the moment, so I will have to be brief.

Imagine that reality is like one of those Russian nesting dolls – do you know what I am talking about – one inside the next? Okay, so the “Omniverse” is the hypothetical outer most doll that contains all of the other dolls. Now, each doll nested within represents an individual universe (like this one), and has you work back toward the center you are traveling backwards in Time towards the beginning of Time, through older lower energy state universes. You go down a layer (a smaller doll) and you get to a simpler universe with simpler rules operating at lower energy. You go up a layer (a larger doll) and you get a larger universe with more complex rules operating at a higher (producing/consuming) state.

From this Universe you can go back down a level to the Abyss (technically the Antiverse (Hell)), or you can go up a level to the higher energy state universe above – the Metaverse (Heaven in Christian terms). But all of these layers are contained within the Omniverse. The Omniverse is the set of Everything. All that exist.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Okay, so Trixy can’t refute any of my arguments, I am making him look like a complete and utter fool, and I am seriously interfering with his recruitment drive for the World Church of A-Theism, so he gets offline and organizes a dozen or so of his little A-Theist lackies to follow me around on the forum and basically post a bunch of spam (insults, jokes, off topic crap, sockpuppets galore, silly threads, ask the same contradictory questions over and over, etc., etc.). Then they all whine to the moderators about 8 or 9 times and try and get me banned.

To this day you will notice there are always at least a couple of derogatory threads with my name in them, ALL started by fanatical members of the Cult of A-Theism. It seems that every other week the moderators are forced to move some a-Theist insult thread off to the hidden recesses of the forum.

Sick. Totally sick. I'm off the game, this is not funny.

Hans

 

[CWL]

This would be incredibly time consuming to explain on this forum. Let me try and come up with a more clear-cut example that will illustrate the same point.

You are most welcome to provide another example and I would be most interested therin. However, you do seem to spend a lot of time on this forum anyway, so why not take a shot at my example?

One observation one could make is that your reply indicates that the concept of MBP is indeed not as simple as 2 + 4 = 4. Perhaps there is a slim possibility that "we" may have just a little something to do with our choices? The question that then arises is of course: what do we mean when we say "we"? In order to understand each other we must agree on this.

IMO, your theory of MPB (which again, to a great extent, seems reasonable to me) does not really refute "free will" in the sense that "we" may "consciously choose between perceived and available options" - I would even go so far as to say that it harmonizes with such a contention. For what are "we" if not - at least to a great extent - the sum of our experiences? You are therefore absolutely right in saying that our experiences will influence our choices - that is however not the same as saying that our choices are made by our experiences alone. There are other factors as well that make "us".

You are saying that our algorithm evolves over time. When I think of it, both myself and Tricky have in reality agreed with this all along. As we become more experienced over time, we perceive more options and our "free will increases".

The point is that we seem to agree to a great extent on what is going on, it is merely a question of finding the right labels. My problem with applying determinism to human behaviour and your contention that the "individual" does not get any real "choices" - that it is really just an (albeit evolving) algorithm producing output - seems to me a denial of the concept of "individual" as such. If "we" cannot make any choices, then what are "we" - what is the point of being "conscious" if not to influence our environment?

Again, that "I" may be defined as the result of genetic and environmental factors does not mean that it is not "me" making the choices. That would be the same as saying that "I", in reality, do not exist.

Edited to add:

In an effort not to derail this thread (and as I believe the subject deserves its own) I have started this new thread on the definition of "I".

 

[Franko]

THE ARMAGGEDDON LIST

This list is nothing more then my own personal, subjective opinions of who on this forum is an Atheist, an Agnostic, or a Theist/Deist. Don’t complain to me that you are on “the wrong list”. 1) This is only My opinion, and 2) Actions speak louder than words ...

The Forces of Light – the Saved
Consciousness makes Matter – Deist/Theist
(people who are Sane/Lucid)

Beleth
Beth Paulkey (Butch Slade)
BiliousGreen
BobM
Christian [mia]
Csense [mia]
dsm
Filip Sandors [mia]
Franko (Serpent)
Gentlehorse
hammegk (Mr. Hand)
Interesting Ian (Mr. Quick)
Jedi Knight (Knight)
LukeT (Luke)[mia]
Metachristi
muscleman
PotatoStew [mia]
Roadtoad
S & S
Sorgoth
stamenflicker
strongstevesaint (Mr. Sleep) [mia]
Thanz
Win
Wraith (Wraith)
Yalel


The Legion of Darkness – the Damned
Matter makes consciousness – Atheist
(Religious Fanatics)

a_unique_person [mia]
Aardvark
aerosolben [mia]
arcticpenguin
AtheistArchon [mia]
Billyhoyt [mia]
c4ts
Central Scrutinizer
chulbert
Colloden [mia]
DanishDynamite
De_Bunk [mia]
Diogenes
Dorman [mia]
Doubt [mia]
Dragonrock
Evildave
Fade
Fool
fidiot
Futurefan [mia]
GoodPropaganda
Gnome
Homonculus [mia]
ImpyTimpy [mia]
Ipecac
J3k
jimmygun
joshua korosi
Keneke
Kodiak [mia]
Latimer
Legally Insane
Lizardpeople
Loki
Lucifuge Rofocale
Oceansize [mia]
Paradox [mia]
PixyMisa
Plutarck
Resonabledoubt [mia]
Max560
Magnifico [mia]
Megalodon
Mossy [mia]
MRC_Hans
neutrino_cannon
NoDeity [mia]
Segnosaur [mia]
Shemp
Sir-drinks-a-lot
Stimpson (Necromancer)
Synaesthesia
Thaifoodken
Titanpoint [mia]
Tricky
Trish [f] [mia]
tjwojo
Upchurch
Victor Danilchenko [mia]
welshdean
Whitefork
Wolfgirl [f] [mia]
xrayecho [mia]
Yahzi
Zombified [mia]


Neutral Charge – No Allegiance
Not enough information – Agnostic
(If you are on this list, then I consider you a Skeptic)

Bjorn (-)
BillyJoe (=)
Crocodile Deathroll (-)
Darat (-)
Darkness (+)
Davidhorman (-)
Frank Newgent (?)
Frostbite (=)
Graham (=)
Gregor (-)
Hal bidlack (=)
Kimpatsu (-)
LeFevre (+)
Lillyofthepink (-)[f][mia]
Luceiia (+) [mia]
Martinm(-)
Pahansiri (+)
Pie (-)[f]
Q-Source (-) [f]
Randfan (+)
Scribble (+) (Mobius)
Seelie (+) [f]
Shroud of Akron (-) [mia]
Slimshady (+) (Shadow)
SortingItAllOut (+)
Soubrette (+) (Enchantress) [f]
SpaceLord (-)
Sundog (-)
Vorticity (+)
Whodini (=)



[mia] = I haven’t seen you posts in the R&P in a while.

Religious Person = a person who has at least one metaphysical belief which they cannot prove (and is not disproven) which the individual acknowledges they hold purely because it makes them “happy”.

Religious Fanatic = a person who holds at least one metaphysical belief which is obviously contradicted by empirical observation (i.e. they hold a logically contradictory belief), yet the individual is unable to perceive the contradiction (or refuses to concede it) = a person traveling on a False Worldline.

Sane = Traveling on a true Worldline.

Skeptical = possessing the ability of Dual Perception.

 

[wraith]

Reason? But that would imply choice. Why reason about something for which you have no choice?

Trix, do you think that my reasons for doing something just pops into my head? I know that you like the whole idea about the present not being based on the past....if gives you that satisfaction of having "free-will"...
all my actions are based on how I interpret the past....

A bit before your time. He was one of the principle characters in the Watergate scandal, and now has a radio show
that makes Rush Limbaugh look like Jesse Jackson.

ahhh yeah them

But one of the things he is famous for is his free will. He absolutely refused to cooperate with investigators, and as a result, spent more time in prison than any other conspirator. At one point he showed his resolve by holding his hand in a candle flame until it was badly burned. "The trick", he said, "is not moving". I realize you will claim this was his MPB, but it was a good example to show your "flame" analogy to be a poor one.

thats a negatory Trix....
He perceived a benefit by getting burnt...he wanted to show something about himself...his past made him into a hardcore...if he was a pussy, do you think that he would be holding his hand above a candle flame?

The flame analogy stands strong...sorry

Are you going to harp on the toast thing now? If you followed that discussion, then you should understand the point I was trying to make (by playing Devil's Advocate). If you didn't understand the point, well, then I think you are ill advised to denigrate my ability to understand things.

I have a pretty good idea

wraith says: Yes, but if I did touch the flame again, it was because that I perceived a benefit in doing so...

Trixy: Yes. If you perceived a benefit, you might choose to do so.

If touching the flame again was my MAXIMUM perceived benefit then I WILL touch the flame

wraith says: So the universe just sprung from the darkness willy nilly?
The present is not based on the past? (aka free-will/magic)
that Trix is magic

Trixy:No, that is admitting I don't know how it happened. Neither do I make up magical stories with Goddesses or Progenitor Solipsists or theoretical particles with amazing powers that defy the laws of physics. Tell me. Do you really believe all that stuff?

So why claim atheism if you DONT KNOW how it happened?
From where Im sitting, it's clear that youre saying that NO GOD EXISTS....dont use your word games on me

...and yes, I do believe all that "stuff"

I think you'd better withdraw the "dream matter" comment, wraith. It is an inordinately silly concept, even for a Logical Deist. BTW, last I heard, matter and energy were interchangable. I'm still waiting to hear the difference between "dream matter" and ordinary matter.

Im not the one that bases my whole like on this "hard stuff"....
What is ordinary matter? This "hard stuff" that you babble on about?

If there was no consciousness at all, would a "tree" still exist?

Also BTW. According to one prominent Logical Deist, gravitons are not made of "dream matter", they are made of time.

I never said that they were...from what I understand, a Graviton is your soul...made up of Gravity/Time

...and other things, including "dream matter". Is dream matter made of atoms?

ahh...yes

Not according to The List. There are things on there which are so far outside of logic that one would have to rewrite the whole dictionary to argue the points. But wait! That's being done isn't it?

what list?

Gravitons, for one. Looks like we can add "dream matter" to the list.

well Id write it has "the universe is made up of memes"

 

[wraith]

.

 

[wraith]

.

 

[Tricky]

Trix, do you think that my reasons for doing something just pops into my head? I know that you like the whole idea about the present not being based on the past....if gives you that satisfaction of having "free-will"...
all my actions are based on how I interpret the past....

As I have said (many) times before, I believe the present is mostly based on the past, but not completely on the past. Not all of your actions are based on how you interpret the past, as you so politely demonstrated earlier.

thats a negatory Trix....
He perceived a benefit by getting burnt...he wanted to show something about himself...his past made him into a hardcore...if he was a pussy, do you think that he would be holding his hand above a candle flame?

The flame analogy stands strong...sorry

'Fraid not, wraith. Now you are saying "you will not stick your hand into a flame unless you do." A rather obvious statement, which in no way disproves free will, in fact quite the opposite.

I have a pretty good idea

I'll need some evidence for that

If touching the flame again was my MAXIMUM perceived benefit then I WILL touch the flame.

Of course. You have then made a conscious choice between perceived, available options. AKA free will. If fatalism were operating, it would make no difference what benefit you perceived. You would not be able to act on it because it had been decided in advance.

So why claim atheism if you DONT KNOW how it happened?
From where Im sitting, it's clear that youre saying that NO GOD EXISTS....dont use your word games on me

Then you do not have a very good view from where you are sitting. I do not, and have never said that no god exists. I have said no god is required to explain the universe. Really wraith, how do you manage to pass your classes with such poor reading comprehension skills?

But I like word games. Want to play some word association? I'll bet you can't predict what I will say.

...and yes, I do believe all that "stuff"

You believe that gravitons defy the laws of physics? You believe that a progenitor solipsist "magically" popped out of nowhere? Really wraith, I don't think you even know what it is you are claiming to believe.

Im not the one that bases my whole like on this "hard stuff"....
What is ordinary matter? This "hard stuff" that you babble on about?

If there was no consciousness at all, would a "tree" still exist?

You prefer to base you life on "magic" stuff? Don't feel bad. All theists do.

Now since you are the one who proposed it's existence, perhaps you would care to stop dodging the question:

What is the difference between "dream matter" and "ordinary matter".

So far, I have been only able to determine that gravitons are made of dream matter, so they don't count when you say "humans are made of atoms". Can you tell me why they don't count?

I never said that they were...from what I understand, a Graviton is your soul...made up of Gravity/Time

I beg to differ. Your exact words were:

yes, thats right about the Graviton, but lets say that the Graviton is "dreaming"....and in this "dreamworld" there is only "dreamworld matter"....

so I am correct when I say "we are made of atoms"

You proposed this to avoid admitting that humans are made of more than atoms. Now you wish to shove this under the table because you can't explain it? A very poor bit of legerdemain, wraith.

But now that you mention it, if Gravitons are made from gravity/time, then they differ from atoms, correct? Or is everything made of gravity/time? You really need to get your thinking straight on this. You keep trapping yourself in contradictions.

Tricky asked
Is dream matter made of atoms?

Wraith replied
ahh...yes

You sound a bit unsure. But we now have enough premises that you have endorsed for a new syllogism.

Dream matter is made of atoms
Gravitons are made of dream matter
Therefore, gravitons are made of atoms.

Of course, this syllogism has the same fallacy of composition that your favorite one does, but since that doesn't seem to bother you, I assume that you will accept this syllogesm as correct.

So gravitons are made of atoms. Funny, I always thought they were smaller than atoms.

what list?

Come now, wraith. I have posted The List, a compilation of the beliefs held by Logical Deists, many times on this very thread. So often, in fact, that I have been accused of spamming. But I will forgive your intentional obtuseness and post a
Link to The List
for your benefit. Click on the underlined words "Link to The List" and it will open up a new window with my most recent list in it. Read it over. Tell me if you agree with everything on it. If you do not agree, tell me what is wrong and I will try to fix it.

well I'd write it has "the universe is made up of memes"

Really? Not atoms? Not gravitons? Truly, you don't seem to have a firm position on this. Could you define "meme" for me?

 

[wraith]

As I have said (many) times before, I believe the present is mostly based on the past, but not completely on the past. Not all of your actions are based on how you interpret the past, as you so politely demonstrated earlier.

Some things are based on the past and some things are not? How?
Once you have magic in the system, the whole thing is screwed...please give an example though

wraith says: thats a negatory Trix....
He perceived a benefit by getting burnt...he wanted to show something about himself...his past made him into a hardcore...if he was a pussy, do you think that he would be holding his hand above a candle flame?
The flame analogy stands strong...sorry

Trixy: 'Fraid not, wraith. Now you are saying "you will not stick your hand into a flame unless you do." A rather obvious statement, which in no way disproves free will, in fact quite the opposite.

No, im saying that if youre MPB is to get burnt then you WILL get burnt. Im saying that your actions are logical. You are saying that they are not.

I'll need some evidence for that

Toast is more complex than humans....if you call that logic....then youre insane

wraith says: If touching the flame again was my MAXIMUM perceived benefit then I WILL touch the flame.

Trixy: Of course. You have then made a conscious choice between perceived, available options. AKA free will. If fatalism were operating, it would make no difference what benefit you perceived. You would not be able to act on it because it had been decided in advance.

You are ultimately saying Tricky that the MPB to touch the flame had no logical reason.

Then you do not have a very good view from where you are sitting. I do not, and have never said that no god exists. I have said no god is required to explain the universe. Really wraith, how do you manage to pass your classes with such poor reading comprehension skills?

I take it that you call double standards logic then?

CAR obeys YOU obeys TLOP

But I like word games. Want to play some word association? I'll bet you can't predict what I will say.

Based on partial info?
Keep singing trix

You believe that gravitons defy the laws of physics?

ie. Gravitons dont behave in a logial way?
No I dont believe in your magic

You believe that a progenitor solipsist "magically" popped out of nowhere? Really wraith, I don't think you even know what it is you are claiming to believe.

Time and Consciousness go hand in hand...youre the one claiming a period of "no-time"

in any case, you believe that TLOP just warped in from the void, yet you claim that youre right....keep those double standards up there Trix..it suits you

You prefer to base you life on "magic" stuff? Don't feel bad. All theists do.

It's not magic

Now since you are the one who proposed it's existence, perhaps you would care to stop dodging the question:

What is the difference between "dream matter" and "ordinary matter".

You see "ordinary matter" has this hard stuff...ie matter creates consciousness...
"dream matter" is energy that we interpret as "matter"

Im not dodging anything....
Again, if there is no consciousness around, is there still a "tree" growing somewhere?

So far, I have been only able to determine that gravitons are made of dream matter, so they don't count when you say "humans are made of atoms". Can you tell me why they don't count?

read above...the "dream matter" is this universe

wraith says: I never said that they were...from what I understand, a Graviton is your soul...made up of Gravity/Time
I beg to differ. Your exact words were:

"Originally posted by wraith 2/14/2003
yes, thats right about the Graviton, but lets say that the Graviton is "dreaming"....and in this "dreamworld" there is only "dreamworld matter"....
so I am correct when I say "we are made of atoms"

You proposed this to avoid admitting that humans are made of more than atoms. Now you wish to shove this under the table because you can't explain it? A very poor bit of legerdemain, wraith.

But now that you mention it, if Gravitons are made from gravity/time, then they differ from atoms, correct? Or is everything made of gravity/time? You really need to get your thinking straight on this. You keep trapping yourself in contradictions.

what contradictions?
Matter is a pattern of energy that we perceieve...
you are still fixated on the "matter creates consciousness" belief...

You sound a bit unsure. But we now have enough premises that you have endorsed for a new syllogism.

Dream matter is made of atoms
Gravitons are made of dream matter
Therefore, gravitons are made of atoms.

Of course, this syllogism has the same fallacy of composition that your favorite one does, but since that doesn't seem to bother you, I assume that you will accept this syllogesm as correct.

So gravitons are made of atoms. Funny, I always thought they were smaller than atoms.

You have totally gotten it all wrong.....why is the Graviton made of dream matter?

Really? Not atoms? Not gravitons? Truly, you don't seem to have a firm position on this. Could you define "meme" for me?

from my understanding, a meme is an idea/energy

 

[Tricky]

Some things are based on the past and some things are not? How?
Once you have magic in the system, the whole thing is screwed...please give an example though

Easily done. Flip a coin. The outcome of that coin flip (heads or tails) is not based on the past. Don't try to obfuscate by saying "the decision to flip the coin was MPB", I am speaking of the outcome only.

No, im saying that if youre MPB is to get burnt then you WILL get burnt. Im saying that your actions are logical. You are saying that they are not.

You earlier said that a person will not put their hand in a flame. Now you are are saying they will if they feel like it. Make up you mind. If you are claiming that no human ever does anything illogical, well, I beg to differ.

You are ultimately saying Tricky that the MPB to touch the flame had no logical reason.

You seem to think that anything a person decides to do makes it logical, regardless of how stupid. This is very interesting concept: illogical logic.

Based on partial info?
Keep singing trix

And you claim "something" has complete info, but you are continuously unable to demonstrate it? Keep wishing if you like, wrath, but remember that wishes don't make things come true.

ie. Gravitons dont behave in a logial way?

No, they don't. At least not the way Logical Deists have defined them. (I notice you completely ignored my request to comment on The List even though provide you convenient links. I can show you where your concept of gravitons is illogical.

But of course, you know that anything you say about gravitons is purely speculatative. They have not even been proven to exist, yet you feel no hesitation to "magically" assign them characteristics, including concepts like soul storage, "dream matter" composition et. al. Are you aware of how silly you look when you do this?

No, I don't believe in your magic.

I see. You prefer to believe in "omniverses", "gravitons", "dream matter", conscious laws of physics and other completely ludicrous assertions based on zero evidence. Yet, that, by your definition, they are not "magic". You should be overwhelmed by cognitive dissonance.

Time and Consciousness go hand in hand...youre the one claiming a period of "no-time"

I have said that some cosmologists think time did not exist before the Big Bang. Of course, a "period of no time" is an oxymoron.

in any case, you believe that TLOP just warped in from the void, yet you claim that youre right....keep those double standards up there Trix..it suits you

I believe that is one of the foundations of Logical Deism. Three of the four forces did not exist until the Logical Goddess magically willed them into existence, yet you have the temerity to complain about double standards? I accept your double and redouble.

It's not magic.

Let's see. You propose things with no evidence which violate the laws of physics and create an anthropomorphic construct which embodies your beliefs. Sounds pretty magic to me. Gandalf would be awed by your work.

what contradictions?
Matter is a pattern of energy that we perceieve...

It is? Well this is certainly a new definition of matter to me. Tell me then, what is energy that we percieve (like light)? Is that matter too? Do we have to perceive matter before it exists? Your hypothesis (it's not even a theory, because theories require evidence) is full of contradictions.

You see "ordinary matter" has this hard stuff...ie matter creates consciousness...
"dream matter" is energy that we interpret as "matter"

This is pure gobbeldygook. You said "dream matter" was made of atoms. Now you say it is energy. Make up your mind.

What is the difference between the "hard stuff" and the "dream matter" that we interpret as "hard stuff"? How do you test is something is made of matter or dream matter? And are you now agreeing that matter makes consciousness?

I'm afraid your last statement looks like a pathetic attempt to obfuscate because you cannot explain your stance. It fools no one.

Im not dodging anything....
Again, if there is no consciousness around, is there still a "tree" growing somewhere?

You are dodging like the Wicked Witch of the West running through a water sprinkler. You have not answered the question in any meaningful way. Can we not "perceive" ordinary matter? Does that make it "dream matter"? You have established no method of identifying one versus another.
And again, with your "tree" thing, you are proposing that something only exists if it is perceived. You have evidence for this, I presume?

read above...the "dream matter" is this universe

I did. It is self-contradictory and absolute nonsense.

You have totally gotten it all wrong.....why is the Graviton made of dream matter?

It is your creation, wraith. I never heard of "dream matter" until you proposed it to explain why we are made of something other than atoms. (Gravitons don't count. They are dream matter). I imagine that you are now sorry you ever said so foolish a thing. It's okay to say, "I was wrong", wraith. You needn't defend this riduculous concept forever.

from my understanding, a meme is an idea/energy

Which is it? An idea or energy. They're not the same thing, you know. How about

A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another.

Do you accept that definition? If not, why not?

 

[Franko]

Tricky:
Easily done. Flip a coin. The outcome of that coin flip (heads or tails) is not based on the past.

Really? If that is True, then how come the outcome is always HEADS or TAILS, but never PURPLE, “24.8” or HORSE?

Don't try to obfuscate by saying "the decision to flip the coin was MPB", I am speaking of the outcome only.

The outcome is ALWAYS determined solely by the input parameters (the coin in this case).

The Wraith:
No, im saying that if youre MPB is to get burnt then you WILL get burnt. Im saying that your actions are logical. You are saying that they are not.

Tricky: (A-Theist recruiter)
You earlier said that a person will not put their hand in a flame. Now you are saying they will if they feel like it. Make up you mind.

Actually I reread what the Wraith said and it makes perfect sense. Your chain of thought – on the other hand – seems to be all over the place.

Tricky explain the traffic light to me? When you approach a “red” traffic light and perceive that it is “red” I would say that you extrapolate from the past and quickly determine:

1) STOP = GOOD
2) GO = BAD

Now you seem to be claiming that your decision is NOT based on the past, so as you approach the “red” light your decision to GO or STOP will be “randomly” determined. (how this equals you have “free will” is anyone’s guess, but logical consistency is not one of the A-Theists strong points, and that is especially True for Tricky.)

If you are claiming that no human ever does anything illogical, well, I beg to differ.

Some humans approach a “red” traffic light and based on their past they come up with this hierarchy of “options”.

1) GO = “GOOD”
2) STOP = “BAD”

Similarly some humans like to self mutilate themselves by burning their hands on a hot stove. These individuals are True A-Theists at heart … We say that they are “Insane”.

The Wraith: (Logical Deist)
You are ultimately saying Tricky that the MPB to touch the flame had no logical reason.

Tricky: (A-Theist)
You seem to think that anything a person decides to do makes it logical, regardless of how stupid. This is very interesting concept: illogical logic.

Hey neither me or the Wraith fully comprehend why you keep coming in this forum to burn your hand on the hot stove day after day after day? Why you keep asserting that people who believe in “God” based on no evidence are crazy, while you persist in believing you have magic “free willy” powers BASED ON NO EVIDENCE.

If you could stop pretending that you have magic “free will” powers that allow you to avoid the consequences for your actions for 5 minutes you’d quickly realize that FATALISM IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD!

But you are utterly unwilling to sacrifice your dogma for the Truth. Like a person burning their hand on the hot stove you aren’t interested in TRUTH, you are only interested in your own insanity.

 

[wraith]

wraith says: Some things are based on the past and some things are not? How?
Once you have magic in the system, the whole thing is screwed...please give an example though

Trix: Easily done. Flip a coin. The outcome of that coin flip (heads or tails) is not based on the past. Don't try to obfuscate by saying "the decision to flip the coin was MPB", I am speaking of the outcome only.

Atoms obey TLOP....
It was your Fate to flip the coin (atoms obey TLOP/MPB) and the coin's outcome is based on that. YOUR HISTORY.

Everything was obeying TLOP.
You and the coin.

You earlier said that a person will not put their hand in a flame. Now you are are saying they will if they feel like it. Make up you mind. If you are claiming that no human ever does anything illogical, well, I beg to differ.

Franko's reply as follows:

Tricky explain the traffic light to me? When you approach a “red” traffic light and perceive that it is “red” I would say that you extrapolate from the past and quickly determine:
1) STOP = GOOD
2) GO = BAD
Now you seem to be claiming that your decision is NOT based on the past, so as you approach the “red” light your decision to GO or STOP will be “randomly” determined. (how this equals you have “free will” is anyone’s guess, but logical consistency is not one of the A-Theists strong points, and that is especially True for Tricky.)

If you dont like fire Trixy, then maybe you prefer this traffic light example instead?

And you claim "something" has complete info, but you are continuously unable to demonstrate it? Keep wishing if you like, wrath, but remember that wishes don't make things come true.

If I had complete control of the atoms in your brain, id be able to make you do whatever I want....are you saying otherwise?

It's all in the Gravity

wraith says: ie. Gravitons dont behave in a logial way?

Trix: No, they don't. At least not the way Logical Deists have defined them. (I notice you completely ignored my request to comment on The List even though provide you convenient links. I can show you where your concept of gravitons is illogical.

The line itself would be good Trix

But of course, you know that anything you say about gravitons is purely speculatative. They have not even been proven to exist, yet you feel no hesitation to "magically" assign them characteristics, including concepts like soul storage, "dream matter" composition et. al. Are you aware of how silly you look when you do this?

Maybe you are looking in the wrong place?
Ever consider consciousness being the source of gravity?

I see. You prefer to believe in "omniverses", "gravitons", "dream matter", conscious laws of physics and other completely ludicrous assertions based on zero evidence. Yet, that, by your definition, they are not "magic". You should be overwhelmed by cognitive dissonance.

Yes Trix, we all know how much you want matter creating consciousness to be TRUE!

I have said that some cosmologists think time did not exist before the Big Bang. Of course, a "period of no time" is an oxymoron.

What else would you call a timeless period?
Thats your belief is it not?

I believe that is one of the foundations of Logical Deism. Three of the four forces did not exist until the Logical Goddess magically willed them into existence, yet you have the temerity to complain about double standards? I accept your double and redouble.

Tell me which sounds magical:
TLOP coming from the void without any cause or a consciousness that generates TLOP?

Let's see. You propose things with no evidence which violate the laws of physics and create an anthropomorphic construct which embodies your beliefs. Sounds pretty magic to me. Gandalf would be awed by your work.


It is? Well this is certainly a new definition of matter to me. Tell me then, what is energy that we percieve (like light)? Is that matter too? Do we have to perceive matter before it exists? Your hypothesis (it's not even a theory, because theories require evidence) is full of contradictions.

Tell me Trix, can you perceive something if you dont exist?

This is pure gobbeldygook. You said "dream matter" was made of atoms. Now you say it is energy. Make up your mind.

E=mc^2 is false is it?

What is the difference between the "hard stuff" and the "dream matter" that we interpret as "hard stuff"? How do you test is something is made of matter or dream matter? And are you now agreeing that matter makes consciousness?

Why in the HELL would I agree to matter creating consciousness?
Anyone the believes that a rock can become conscious is a looney toon.

E=mc^2

Take a tree. It's made of atoms. It's energy that we interpret in a certain way. We call this patten of energy a "tree"

would any of the senses exist without a consciousness?

You are dodging like the Wicked Witch of the West running through a water sprinkler.

Similies in action folks

You have not answered the question in any meaningful way. Can we not "perceive" ordinary matter? Does that make it "dream matter"? You have established no method of identifying one versus another.

?
We perceive a pattern of energy as matter...
Youre looking through the "matter creates consciousness" window...

And again, with your "tree" thing, you are proposing that something only exists if it is perceived. You have evidence for this, I presume?

If you were the sole consciousness in the universe, if you died, would a "tree" still exist?

I take it that you will be able to perceive things when youre 6 feet under?

It is your creation, wraith. I never heard of "dream matter" until you proposed it to explain why we are made of something other than atoms. (Gravitons don't count. They are dream matter). I imagine that you are now sorry you ever said so foolish a thing. It's okay to say, "I was wrong", wraith. You needn't defend this riduculous concept forever.

Why is it foolish?
It's only "dream matter" to you because youre mind is fixed on a matter creating consciousness universe...

wraith says: from my understanding, a meme is an idea/energy

Trix: Which is it? An idea or energy. They're not the same thing, you know.

You have the Higher Power generating this universe...

You have the Mind of the Higher Power (initial state) and then you have the Higher Power's actions (TLOP)

 

[Tricky]

Atoms obey TLOP....
It was your Fate to flip the coin (atoms obey TLOP/MPB) and the coin's outcome is based on that. YOUR HISTORY.

Whether it lands heads or tails is based on my history? That certainly is an interesting proposition. Care to back it up with evidence. I have flipped numerous coins and they seem to show a random distribution of heads and tails. I guess my history changes dramatically every second.

Everything was obeying TLOP.
You and the coin.

Yes, wraith, I know your catch phrase. But you still have not shown how the outcome of the coin flip is based on the past. I can think of ways you might argue this, but you haven't used them yet, and I'm not going to give you hints. Try thinking on your own.

If you dont like fire Trixy, then maybe you prefer this traffic light example instead?

So one analogy fails and you must dodge the question by trying another one? As I say, most things are determined by MPB, but a few aren't. I have already shot down the "traffic light" scenario. Unlike you, I get tired of repeating myself.

Hint. Try demonstrating some evidence instead of analogies.

If I had complete control of the atoms in your brain, id be able to make you do whatever I want....are you saying otherwise?

If you had control in the sense of being able to order them around, yes. But if you had control in the sense making sure they obey the rules, no. You are proposing an entity that is able to "order atoms around". You have not shown anything to support this proposition.

It's all in the Gravity

Really. Then you can explain the mechanism for gravity? It's Nobel Prize time.

The line itself would be good Trix

What line? Why are you still avoiding talking about The List? They are your beliefs, are they not? If not, tell me which ones are not.

Maybe you are looking in the wrong place?
Ever consider consciousness being the source of gravity?

Sure I'd consider it, if you could provide some evidence. But unconscious things have gravity, so I'd say the evidence is going to be hard to find.

Yes Trix, we all know how much you want matter creating consciousness to be TRUE!

I have no emotional attachment to this theory, but I have to admit it is well supported. The reverse theory (consciousness makes matter) is not only unsupported but self-contradictory.

What else would you call a timeless period?
Thats your belief is it not?

It is one possibility that cosmologists have put forth. It is not a belief, because we have no evidence for it, however it is logically consistant. That doesn't mean it's true.

I'd probably call it a timeless "state", thus avoiding the self-contradiction of using a measurement of time (period) to describe timelessness.

Tell me which sounds magical:
TLOP coming from the void without any cause or a consciousness that generates TLOP?

And where does that causal consciousness come from? You are merely adding another layer of mystery because you cannot acknowledge you have no explanation for the first layer. Somewhere in your creation story, you have to have something that doesn't have a cause. For Franko, it is the Progenitor Solipsist. For me it is the universe itself. What is it for you?

Tell me Trix, can you perceive something if you dont exist?

And can you answer a question directly instead of making a non-sequitur? If dream matter is energy that we interpret as matter, what is energy that we interpret as energy? Is it "dream energy"?

I see you are trying to shove the whole "dream matter" issue under the table by not discussing it. I can't blame you, for it is a silly concept. However, you could be forthright and admit that you were just making it up. Somehow, I don't expect that.

E=mc^2 is false is it?

That equation is for normal matter. As far as I know, there is no equation for "dream matter". Are you then admitting that dream matter is no different from ordinary matter? Why did you propose it then? Oh, right. Because you were cornered in the syllogism thing.

Why in the HELL would I agree to matter creating consciousness?
Anyone the believes that a rock can become conscious is a looney toon.

And anyone who would say that rocks are the only kind of matter that exists is a loony toon. Guess what, wraith. There are many kinds of matter, all with different properties. Also, there's a little thing called "evolution". Back to begginner's science class for you.

E=mc^2

Take a tree. It's made of atoms. It's energy that we interpret in a certain way. We call this patten of energy a "tree"

More non-sequiturs, I see. Do you somehow imagine this stuff you are babbling is addressing the issue?

would any of the senses exist without a consciousness?

It would depend on how you define consciousness. Even one-celled animals are able to sense light. Are they conscious?

?
We perceive a pattern of energy as matter...
Youre looking through the "matter creates consciousness" window...

Then open a new window for me, wrath. Give me a demonstrable example of consciousness creating matter. I have already given you one for matter making consciousness, but since you have shown a remarkably poor memory, I will summarize again.

A human zygote becomes more conscious as it adds matter to it's neurologic system.

Which brings up another interesting question. When does the graviton enter a human? At conception? Are they all clustered around, each betting on one sperm? (They must be associated with the sperm, since we know that gravitons have gender and the sperm determines the baby's gender.) Does this mean that male gametes have gravitons but female ones do not?

If you were the sole consciousness in the universe, if you died, would a "tree" still exist?

First you would have to demonstrate that I was the sole consciousness in the universe. How would you do that?

I take it that you will be able to perceive things when youre 6 feet under?

According to me, no. According to you, yes. (My graviton would still be around, exchanging information).

Why is it foolish?
It's only "dream matter" to you because youre mind is fixed on a matter creating consciousness universe...

Okay, we have yet more info about "dream matter". It only exists if you think matter makes consciousness. Does this mean that for Logical Deists, there is no such thing as "dream matter"? Really wraith. Just admit you made it up and you can stop tap dancing. No one will think less of you, in fact, just the opposite.

You have the Higher Power generating this universe...

You have the Mind of the Higher Power (initial state) and then you have the Higher Power's actions (TLOP)

And who genererates the "Higher Power"? And who generates the power that generates the "Higher Power", ad. infinitum? It's turtles all the way down, sonny.

 

[Franko]

Am I the only person who thinks that "The Brak Show" is the funniest 15 minutes on television?

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (wants his "free willy")
Whether it lands heads or tails is based on my history? That certainly is an interesting proposition. Care to back it up with evidence. I have flipped numerous coins and they seem to show a random distribution of heads and tails. I guess my history changes dramatically every second.

Considering that you believe the present is not based on the past, I am curious as to how many times you flipped the coin and it landed as a FISH?

Ever wake up in the morning as an Ostrich? Ever know anyone who did? if the present is not based on the past how come things like that NEVER seem to happen?

(of course, I never see TOAST running for president either, so what do I know?)

 

[Tricky]

Gosh, it has been a gold mine of LD information today. Again, thanks to those sockpuppets who have been keeping me apprised of threads that I'm not watching.

Here is the latest list of the Beliefs of the Progenitor Logical Deist. They are as close to the actual words as I can get without feedback from Franko. I welcome that feedback. Misdirection and accusations will be less welcome, but totally expected.

New items have a red bullet.
-----------------------------
NOTE: Many of these “beliefs” were verified by Franko in this post.
Origins

• This universe is part of an omniverse.
  [*] The Omniverse, and all of its subsets (Universes, even You and I) are all reiterative hierarchical structures, i.e. fractals.
• The first entity is the Progenitor Solipsist (PS) – our original primordial ancestor – what the Christians call “God the Father/God the Creator”
• The Progenitor Solipsist exists in the distant past when there were only two intrinsic parameters - Mass and Velocity
• This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
• The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
• The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
• The Logical Goddess is bound by both fate and logic.
• Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
• Consciousness creates matter.
  [*] Once Time achieves a certain level of self-awareness it begins to evolve (and expand). Your “extra” spatial dimensions are the early manifestations of “the matter”, but they are merely the byproduct of Time.
• The Big Bang is made up of two parts. The Goddess corresponds to "The Initial State” (the initial “random” configuration of stuff). The other part is The Laws of Physics .

How Things Work

• One soul = one graviton.
• Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
• The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
• Gravitons are fermions, i.e. they have spin and charge.
• Spin is quality of Mass, and Charge is quality of Velocity.
• The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
• Determinism/Fate/”free will” is the interaction of gravitons of varying strength.
  The same logic that leads me to conclude a more evolved being exist leads me to believe that entities’ gender female.
• There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatabalist free will. None.
• The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
• This entire Universe is essentially an illusion. You and I actually exist as particles in the Truer reality of the Omniverse. This universe is a carefully constructed elaboration of the True reality.
• TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
• The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
• The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
• True randomness does not exist.
• If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P. (As shown by the syllogism, "Atoms obey the laws of physics. You are made of atoms. Therefore you obey the laws of physics.)
• Gravity travels faster than the speed of light.
• Gravitons are the fundamental force-carrying particles of Gravity and Time.
• Gravitons are not real in the sense that you and I are real.
• Gravitons obey a higher law that we'd probably call Thermodymics.
• A Graviton is just a special kind of meme, and memes are just distinct packets of information.
• Gravitons are made of time
  [*] The Logical Goddess cannot create gravitons, but she can destroy them.
• Objects without gravitons don't really exist in the way that You or I do. They are merely projections.
• Essentially, LD is a Unified Theory of Physics.
• The universe can be completely described in terms of binary responses.
• If A controls B then A is more conscious than B. -- EXCEPTION If it appears that a less conscious object is controlling a more conscious object, it is actually the LG that is controlling them both.
• Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.
• At the core of your Soul there is a special type of meme, a special type of algorithm. It possesses this quality you call self-awareness to a far greater degree than other memes. It has this quality because it possesses a meme which gives it Simultaneous Perception. In short it has the ability to perceive two realities (or more) at the same time.
• Electromagnetism is the memetic projection of the Goddess used as an enhanced means of conveying information.
• The rules which bind all consciousness are the Laws of Time and Gravity. These are not laws in the same sense as TLOP
  [*] Space and Time are essentially the same thing, or more accurately “Space” (and it’s cousin the “matter”) are merely manifestations of extrapolated (evolved) Time.

Morality

• Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
• Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
• The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
• the abyss is a Black hole where the Souls that don’t make it get tossed.
• There are consequences for the things you do.
• The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
• You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
• MPB is what is actually evolving. Your algorithm (as well as your database) expands, and evolves over time. It grows. It becomes more complex. You become more self aware. You gain individuality, you gain power. You gain control. You gain freedom.
• Anyone who commits an immoral act is insane
• Threat of punishment is the only thing that leads to morality.
• A situation is a pattern of events outside the context of time.

Miscellaneous/The Lexicon

• Followers of LD are on an Omniworldview line.
• Fate = Karma. Karma is – every action has a equal reaction (initially equal, but magnified over Time)
• No evidence against a thing means evidence for a thing.
• choices are preordained outputs
• In LD an Eternity is a very long long period of time, not an “infinite” period of time.
  [*] Gravity is the force which makes Logic possible, and without Logic there would be no Fate.
• Logic works by having people compare their explanations and seeing which is more logical.
  [*] Love is when the existence of another Graviton becomes more axiomatic then your own existence.

A more detailed explanation of the Logical Deism creation story is given here.

 

[Franko]

Since its been over a year, and you STILL haven’t presented ANY evidence for your religious beliefs, and since you post NOTHING but the same spam over and over again, what do you want me to say? If you have an actual argument for your religious beliefs – some evidence – I’ll be happy to discuss it with you, but your spam doesn’t really require anything other than me restating the obvious. I realize you don’t like your hypocrisy exposed Tricky, perhaps you should run along then? I honestly don’t know why you keep non-responding to all of my posts?

Actually, I do know why … It’s because you are a severely brainwashed religious fanatic with no evidence for his beliefs.

What is your evidence for the existence of “free will”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe in “free will” anyway!

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “god”?
Tricky 30+ years dedicated to A-Theism: NONE, but I devoutly and dogmatically believe there is NO “god”, and anyone who believes otherwise is a credulous Theist moron!

--------------------------

What is your evidence for the non-existence of “free will”?
Franko, Logical Deist: Atoms obey TLOP; You are made of Atoms; YOU OBEY TLOP!

What is your evidence for the existence of “god”?
Franko, Logical Deist: TLOP (“god”) makes/controls YOU makes/controls CAR.
In the same way that YOU are more conscious then a CAR, TLOP is more conscious then YOU.

When are you going to explain what the "YOU" is that is making the "decisions"??? I thought that according to Materialism there was no "YOU"? I thought that "YOU" were nothing more then a collection of Atoms?

Why do you believe that the atoms in your brain aren't controlled by the laws of Physics, Trixy? You never seem to want to explain this? What are you hiding A-Theist? Are you embarrassed to tell us what you believe?

 

[Tricky]

Misdirection and accusations will be less welcome, but totally expected.

Wow! I must be psychic!

But if you want to discuss any of the things I have actually said, Franko, just provide a link, as I have.