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Logical? Deism.

Howdy Franko, I'm finally getting around to commenting on my inclusion in your list.
As I made clear some time ago, I call myself an "atheist" not and "agnostic". To recap, by "atheist" I merely mean that I lack a belief in a god or gods. No more, no less. Why am I in the agnostic column?

Now, I think we both realize that your definition of "atheist" is different from that of everybody on this board (ie, "atheist" = "one who believes that matter makes consciousness").
Wouldn't you agree that using a different definition of the word than everyone else might pose a problem?
 
Since this thread is about Logical Deism, I think we should recap what we know about it. Here is a partial list. I am trying (in as much as is possible) to only list things that have been stated by the proponants of LD, and not my interpretations. If you want to add to the list, please do likewise.
  • This universe is part of an omniverse.
  • This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created all the forces except gravity.
  • The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe, but she is in turn controlled by "Fate".
  • One soul = one graviton.
  • Gravitons come from outside this universe
  • The Logical goddess is the "top graviton".
  • The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
  • Gravitons are inherantly either good or evil. The evil ones will burn for eternity.
  • There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatiblist free will. None.
  • There are consequences for the things you do.
  • The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
  • You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
  • The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
  • The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
  • TLOP are also conscious and complex.
  • TLOP created humans (except for the soul/graviton, which comes from outside the universe).
  • TLOP are more conscious and complex than humans.
  • Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
  • True randomness does not exist.

That's all I can think of for right now. Perhaps the rest of you can add to the list (yes, you too Franko). Please try to confine the list to actual statements by a Logical Deist and not your own extrapolations.
 
Vorticity,

That list is simply my own opinions based on my own experiences talking to people in this forum. Obviously you must have said or done something that made me think you were an open-minded skeptic (agnostic) instead of a blindly dogmatic religious fanatic (A-Theist).

But if you thik I have placed you in the wrong category don’t worry, I change that list around all of the time. Just start acting like an Evil narrow-minded, pessimistic, cynical, hate-filled, bigoted, nitwit, and I will move you over to the A-Theist column so fast your head will spin.
 
UndercoverElephant said:
It was a mistake even to mention it. We argue from logic here, not from paranormal happenings.
Click to expand...

I wish it were so.

Anyhow, you don't want to talk about it, that's fine. but that's not anger, I'm genuinely curious as to what you think of that phenomena now that you've had time to reflect.

My philosophy is as old as the hills, Chris. I didn't develop it. I figured out a few basic logical steps and read LOTS of books. Between them Berkeley, Kant, Schopenhaur and Hegel pretty much covered 99% of it. Anything they left out was stated again by numerous other people and illustrated beautifully by Aldous Huxley in 20th century. I take credit for nothing.
Click to expand...

You're right, and I knew that when I said it. My bad.

And I wish you'd calm down a bit.
Click to expand...

Hey, me too, I guess... but arguing with you is exciting.

Chill, friend. I have my opinion and you have yours.
Click to expand...

I'm willing to chill (a little) but I am not willing to give our 'opinions' equal weight. I shoudl clarify: I'm willing to contemplate anything you care to offer... but if I contemplate it and come to the determination it's ridiculousness, I'm not going to say, "Well, he has his opinion and I have mine." I will say, "He is ridiculous."

:)

-Chris
 
Franko said:
But if you thik I have placed you in the wrong category don’t worry, I change that list around all of the time. Just start acting like an Evil narrow-minded, pessimistic, cynical, hate-filled, bigoted, nitwit, and I will move you over to the A-Theist column so fast your head will spin.
Click to expand...
OK, its a deal!
But seriously, do you think its possible to be an "atheist" without possessing any of the negative traits in the above list? If not, then, again, we have this problem of you and this board using disjoint definitions...
 
UCE: Following on from my previous comment don’t you think you are being inconsistent in stating that “something can’t come nothing”? Isn’t this just an assumption?
Click to expand...

No. It's the simplest bit of logic in the world. If you nothing at all - a state of absolute nothingness - then nothing can come from it. Even 'making' 1 and -1 from Zero implies that the zero isn't nothing. At the very least it was potentially something.

:)
 
This universe is part of an omniverse.
True

This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created all the forces except gravity.
True

The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe, but she is in turn controlled by "Fate".
False (this one is just worded poorly)

One soul = one graviton.
True

Gravitons come from outside this universe

Sort of … You really have to think of all things in terms of the Omniverse, this universe is within (inside) the Omniverse, so being “outside” of this universe, still leaves you inside the Omniverse. Essentially it is impossible for anything to be outside the Omniverse though.

The Logical goddess is the "top graviton".
True (that is the same as saying the LG is Omnipotent)

The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
True

Gravitons are inherantly either good or evil. The evil ones will burn for eternity.

Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil. That is true. Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state). From the POV of someone in a higher energy state, this Universe is “Hell”, and the state below this universe is even worse. But I am not talking about the Christian version of “hell” by ANY stretch of the imagination.

There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatiblist free will. None.
True

There are consequences for the things you do.
Obviously True

The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
True

You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
True

The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
True (Electro-magnetism, weak nuclear, strong nuclear are her babies)

The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
True

TLOP are also conscious and complex.
False (technically)

TLOP is kind of the expression of the LG. The LG Herself is more analogous to the Initial State, but from your POV or mine, She is just a Gorgeous, Fabulous Babe.

TLOP created humans (except for the soul/graviton, which comes from outside the universe).
False (The LG is responsible for the shape and form of your bodies, but She didn’t create YOU. You are your Soul [your Graviton]. Your body is more analogous to the clothes you wear.

TLOP are more conscious and complex than humans.
Sorta True (badly worded)

The Logical Goddess is more complex than You or I, ergo She is a Superior Entity. In other words, God is more powerful and smarter than YOU are.

Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
True

The only other alternative being Magic.
 
Scribble :

I am going to say "He is ridiculous."
Click to expand...


Those who feel the breath of sadness, Sit down next to me
Those who find they're touched by madness, Sit down next to me
Those who find themselves ridiculous, Sit down next to me

(James)
Click to expand...
 
Voricity,

OK, its a deal!
But seriously, do you think its possible to be an "atheist" without possessing any of the negative traits in the above list?
Click to expand...

You tell me?

Where is the optimism in A-Theism? I can’t seem to locate it?

Existence is meaningless, and then (thankfully) it ceases.

If not, then, again, we have this problem of you and this board using disjoint definitions...
Click to expand...

No if you look up cynicism or pessimism in the Dictionary they are using the same definitions I am. Of course according to the A-Theists, A-Theism isn’t really a religion – were you aware of that? … I mean … You sure could of Fooled me? In what way, isn’t A-Theism a religion?

I mean if there is any person who can look at Thaifoodkenny, or De-Bungler and not see a raging religious fanatic, then your perception is beyond all hope of repair.
 
False (The LG is responsible for the shape and form of your bodies, but She didn’t create YOU. You are your Soul [your Graviton]. Your body is more analogous to the clothes you wear.
Click to expand...
Then there is one (one more) thing I dont understand:

Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of atoms ....... But isnt that just my body? Which, I think we have earlier agreed is not =ME (since I am, or am also, my Soul (Graviton) as stated above)?

And since I am NOT made of (only) atoms, how does the logic carry over to the third line?

Hans
 
Then there is one (one more) thing I dont understand:

Atoms obey TLOP
You are made of atoms ....... But isnt that just my body? Which, I think we have earlier agreed is not =ME (since I am, or am also, my Soul (Graviton) as stated above)?

And since I am NOT made of (only) atoms, how does the logic carry over to the third line?
Click to expand...

Well MRC, if you had a Soul, then You are made of Atoms would no longer be strictly True, would it?

Of course since you are an A-Theist, there is no point in us talking about a Soul. "Souls" are something that only silly Theists believe in. An A-Theist (like whitefork) knows that all that exists is "matter". so ...

YOU ARE MADE OF ATOMS.

(end of story)
 
Okay, the revised list, based on Franko's input

  • This universe is part of an omniverse.
  • This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
  • The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
  • One soul = one graviton.
  • Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
  • The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
  • The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
  • Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
  • Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
  • The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
  • There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatiblist free will. None.
  • There are consequences for the things you do.
  • The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
  • You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
  • The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
  • The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
  • TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
  • The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
  • The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
  • Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
  • True randomness does not exist.

Better?
 
whitefork:
Tricky, you need to add "matter does not exist".
Click to expand...

Ahhh, only in a manner of speaking. I mean, in what way do words exist when you say them? They only exist in the mind of the person you are talking too -- right?
 
Franko said:


Ahhh, only in a manner of speaking. I mean, in what way do words exist when you say them? They only exist in the mind of the person you are talking too -- right?
Click to expand...
Would you then say, "matter is not a tangible thing"? Obviously lots of things exist as concepts, like good and evil, which are not tangible things.
 
OK, Tricky, then "only energy exists, since E is on the left hand side of the E=MCsquared equation"
 
I think I can work with that, Whitefork. Remember, I am trying to be faithful to what LDeists have said.
  • This universe is part of an omniverse.
  • This universe was created by the Logical Goddess (LG), who also created the forces (electro-magnetism, weak nuclear and strong nuclear). She did not create gravity.
  • The Logical Goddess controls everything in this universe.
  • One soul = one graviton.
  • Gravitons come from the omniverse, but not necessarily this universe.
  • The Logical goddess is the "top graviton", meaning she is omnipotent.
  • The gender of a graviton is determined by its spin.
  • Gravitons are intrinsically Good or Evil.
  • Good Gravitons will move forward in Time (to a higher energy state), Evil Gravitons will move backwards in Time (to a lower energy state).
  • The lower, the worse things are, but not the same as the Christian "Hell".
  • There is no free will. Not libertarian free will. Not compatiblist free will. None.
  • There are consequences for the things you do.
  • The things you do are the result of Maximum Perceived Benefit (MPB). This is not the same as free will.
  • You will be punished if your MPB causes you to do the wrong things.
  • The LG created The Laws Of Physics (TLOP), except for gravity.
  • The LG is the most conscious and complex entity in the universe.
  • TLOP are an expression of the LG. She controls them.
  • The LG, using TLOP, creates the shape, or body of humans. The soul is the graviton.
  • The LG, and by extension TLOP are smarter, more powerful and more complex than humans.
  • Everything in the universe is deterministic, including Quantum Mechanics.
  • True randomness does not exist.
  • Matter does not physically exist, but is a manifestation of energy.

Keep 'em coming, folks.
 
Two more:

If A has property P and B is made of A, then B has property P.

If A controls B then A is more conscious than B.
 
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