Lockerbie: London Origin Theory

Well, if this was the second suitcase Bedford saw and it is the one right next to the brown primary suitcase one would expect to find little pieces of brown plastic embedded in the contents of this suitcase. If the contents of this suitcase were removed or replaced evidence has been destroyed.


I'm not sure that actually happened, given what the SCCRC turned up. Some papers were removed at least, though.

We don't know the detail of what was found in it. I will try to get Hayes's full report, which might have that sort of information.

Rolfe.
 
Still reading, Jargon Buster? Forgotten what smilies mean?
Yes I am, my little joke was that you seem to accept evidence regardless of its source as long as it fits in with your theory thats all.
I hope littleswan doesn't find too many holes in your theory.

Im out again.

;)
 
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For the allusion-challenged around here, the intent of the smilie was to indicate that a reliance on Hayes's conclusions regarding the cause of the damage to PD/889 when presenting a case to the authorities would be rather amusing. I'd quite like to see them scratching around to declare that he must have been mistaken.

Rolfe.
 
Maybe if you didn't have to explain your posts more people might start taking part in this thread.

Sorry, Im definitely out this time, you might have your work cut out with littleswan anyway.
 
LittleSwan and I are getting on just fine. I fail to see where you perceive a problem.

Rolfe.
 
:confused:

I think there's enough information in these two images combined to get the general picture though.

Rolfe.

No, we don't have a picture of the side that was facing the blast. If there is sooting etc, I would expect it on the other site, that is the site closest to the floor of the container. This is because most of the soot and hot gases will travel through the free space between the bomb suitcase and the floor of the container (if the bomb was in the so called third position)
 
I wouldn't have thought you would be able to tell on such a low-resolution photograph anyway.

As I said, Hayes is absolutely clear on the subject. I'd love to see the Crown Office tie itself in knots trying to dismiss that finding, while still relying absolutely on the same man for a huge proportion of the evidential findings in the case.

Rolfe.
 
No, we don't have a picture of the side that was facing the blast. If there is sooting etc, I would expect it on the other site, that is the site closest to the floor of the container. This is because most of the soot and hot gases will travel through the free space between the bomb suitcase and the floor of the container (if the bomb was in the so called third position)
Good point.
 
From the photo all I'd be willing to say is that the suitcase looks like it's been bounced off something solid from quite high up.

The only person saying that it's been explosion damaged is Hayes, and from his little drawing of blast damage direction I've assumed that this case ( PD889 ) is one of those stacked along the back ie NOT the other case Bedford saw.


On a different note, that's an interesting little nugget the SCCRC dug out relating to CIA ( or others ) interference in the evidence chain, specifically to PD 889. The two cops who were asked to 'retrieve' items remember who asked them to ( Orr ), that they did so and even had some vague recollection of what was retrieved ( also that there was no log kept of this ). Orr, on the other hand, denies all knowledge ( over two interviews ) of such a request or thing happening.
I know it was a very big investigation n all that, but securing sensitive intelligence docs for foreign powers obviously happens so regularly in Scotland as to be unremarkable.
 
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Maybe if you didn't have to explain your posts more people might start taking part in this thread.

Sorry, Im definitely out this time, you might have your work cut out with littleswan anyway.


Poor ol' Rolfe's generally got her work cut out trying to explain things to me, but even I know a tongue planted in a cheek when I see one :p
 
From the photo all I'd be willing to say is that the suitcase looks like it's been bounced off something solid from quite high up.


Since we know exactly how high up, I suspect it wasn't as solid as all that. Probably some patch of pond-snail-and-fluke-ridden "pasture". God knows there's enough of that around there.

The only person saying that it's been explosion damaged is Hayes, and from his little drawing of blast damage direction I've assumed that this case ( PD889 ) is one of those stacked along the back ie NOT the other case Bedford saw.


Look at it this way. We know it was one of the six legitimate Heathrow interline suitcases. It was in the row at the back, unless it was moved down to the front to become the right-hand Bedford suitcase. We don't think it was that suitcase, because of the pattern of damage, so we agree it was in the row at the back.

We know it was one of the group of three off the Larnaca flight. Those are the three that arrived first, after Carlsson's early-arrival case. So the likelihood is, that suitcase was sitting on its hinge end, behind the bomb suitcase, and end-on to it.

I find it next to impossible to see how that damage as sketched by Hayes is not blast damage. It's in exactly the position you'd expect such a case to be damaged by the explosion. Which is why, idiot though he undoubtedly is, I see no reason to disbelieve him.

The real anomaly is McKee's other case, PD/120. It's recorded as showing no explosion damage at all, though when they tested it, there was explosives contamination. It should also have been close enough to the bomb suitcase to have shown roughly similar damage to PD/889. However, the lack of damage would suggest it was actually the extreme right-hand one in the row. Where one of Bernstein's cases should have been.

One of Bernstein's cases, in contrast, must have been pretty much right behind the bomb suitcase - I'd say between Carlsson's case and PD/889 - because the lock of the bomb suitcase was blasted into it. It's as if PD/120 and that Bernstein case (I still don't know if it was the suit carrier or the checked holdall) switched places.

I can't entirely explain it, but it's one more thing that suggests someone was playing silly buggers with the cases in the row at the back, after Bedford positioned them but before Sidhu loaded the Frankfurt luggage.

Think about something else. Hayes apparently drew that sketch on 20th January 1989. It looks like a slam-dunk demonstration of a bottom-layer explosion. The case is even sitting upright in the sketch, in the way it would have been sitting in the container, rather than flat as one might imagine it being examined (cf. the photograph). Now I know Hayes also put the height of the explosion at 18 inches in a memo dated 16th January, so it's all a bit unclear, but I wonder if this was an honest assessment at the time, that had to be massively fudged later? (Never mind that big hole in the bottom, look at this suspiciously neat little hole on the top....)

On a different note, that's an interesting little nugget the SCCRC dug out relating to CIA ( or others ) interference in the evidence chain, specifically to PD 889. The two cops who were asked to 'retrieve' items remember who asked them to ( Orr ), that they did so and even had some vague recollection of what was retrieved ( also that there was no log kept of this ). Orr, on the other hand, denies all knowledge ( over two interviews ) of such a request or thing happening.
I know it was a very big investigation n all that, but securing sensitive intelligence docs for foreign powers obviously happens so regularly in Scotland as to be unremarkable.


Don't start me. "Special relationship" is the polite term. "Poodle" is another. "Extraordinary rendition" is a third.

Rolfe.
 
From the Lockerbie Divide

Gray:
13 Jan - Label 82 AKA police number PI 990: “…charred pieces of a suitcase found in I, 502 858, by T. Gilchrist, on the 13th of January '89.” A secondary label, "Debris (charred), found I Sector, 502 858," in my writing. Refers to the same.” [DI T. Gilchrist, p 855-56]
“described as a small, charred piece of grey plastic suitcase.” [p 1054]

20 February – (label?), police no. PH/773, we can see is grey/white material, suitcase interior.” Logged 1.40 p.m. on the 22nd.
“Q Underneath are the words "Joseph Patrick Curry" in red?
A That is not my handwriting.” Witness no. 127, Findlay, p 1074-75]

6 March - Label 81: "Piece of grey plastic with soot marks [possibly suitcase]."
Found: K Sector, CAD Longtown.
“Q You indicate that you had written on the label "possibly suitcase." What was it that made you think that?
A The type of material it was, basically.
Q What sort of size of article is it?
A Much smaller than the last piece; about, I would say, three and a half inches by two inches.
Q And what colour is it?
A Grey.” [p 748-750]

25 April - Label 91: “a piece of grey plastic.” Found: “grid reference 509 859, Newcastleton Forest.” “It's about an inch square, and it's quite ragged around the edges.” [p 831-32]

27 April - Label 87: "Piece of grey-coloured suitcase, I Sector, grid reference 509 859." [p 981]

No date given - Label 83: "Piece of charred material [possibly part of a suitcase]." Found: I Sector at CAD Longtown. “It's a grey coloured -- appeared to me to be plastic material, hard plastic material … It's a fragmented shape, I would say… Eight inches by five inches or so.” [McInes, pp 747-48]

No date Given - Label 98: "Piece of grey material, possibly suitcase, found debris, K Sector, Longtown." “a piece of grey plastic Bakelite-type material.” [p 979-980]

How many interline Heathrow suitcases were hard shelled and gray?
 
Three. Carlsson's, and both of McKee's. McKee's were as you see them in the pics in the SCCRC report. Carlsson's was much more severely damaged. It was on the extreme left of the back row, right behind the bomb. It was found in bits. I suspect much of what you quote refers to Carlsson's grey Presikhaaf hardshell.

Curry is in a different category. His suitcase wasn't in AVE4041, because he arrived at Heathrow too late.

Rolfe.
 
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It is almost impossible to solve this puzzle if we don't have access to the original reports, data, pictures etc. Making up "alternative scenario's" (t.i speculation) is fun, but on the other hand it's a waste of time.

Sorry for being pessimistic.
 
It is almost impossible to solve this puzzle if we don't have access to the original reports, data, pictures etc. Making up "alternative scenario's" (t.i speculation) is fun, but on the other hand it's a waste of time.

A bit like trying to re-try a case via an internet forum.
 
It is almost impossible to solve this puzzle if we don't have access to the original reports, data, pictures etc. Making up "alternative scenario's" (t.i speculation) is fun, but on the other hand it's a waste of time.

Sorry for being pessimistic.


Well, here's a start. This lot showed up unsolicited this afternoon. Additional material has been requested. I realise the angle of the photos still isn't what you want, but at least the resolution is a lot better. And it is accompanied by the original notes.

PP8932as.jpg


Full-size file

PP8932bs.jpg


Full size file

Hayes22s.jpg


Full size file

PP8932sketch.jpg


Hope this is some help.

Rolfe.

ETA: While I was resizing and uploading these, someone has been busy. Large files currently downloading into my email inbox. Talk among yourselves, I may be some time....
 
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OK, there's a lot of stuff here. Some of it is in pdf format. I'm just going to throw the lot up there without doing any resizing or renaming, click on links for pics.

Report on AVE4041

Carlsson's Presikhaaf (That settles that, no way was it under the bomb. Looks like it was where Bedford said he put it.)

Bernstein's suit carrier

Bernstein's holdall

Various bits (including Coyle case and the bomb suitcase)

I still don't know which of the Bernstein cases the bomb suitcase lock was found in. Unless that was a mistake in the memo I found it in. Neither of his items looks as if it has been right behind the bomb. Which is as Bedford said.

Don't have Gannon's case yet.

More on the way, I'm told. Probably best just to assimilate the data for now.

Rolfe.
 
Bernstein's suit carrier intrigues me. It does not appear to me to have been handle-up at the time of the explosion. Visualising it folded back up, it seems to me that the handle side has been closest to the blast.

BernsteinAs.jpg


Bedford indicated that both front suitcases were loaded with the handles to the back, but he doesn't seem to have paid a lot of attention to the right-hand one. I wonder if that suit carrier could have been placed to the right of the bomb suitcase with the handle to the side? This is just speculation, but I'm trying it on to see if it fits.

Bear in mind that suit carrier, although not hard-sided, was a maroon Samsonite. Also, it could well have been at the end of the row at the back, and so the easiest to shift.

Rolfe.
 
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